Welcome! All the things.
Hi, if we haven't met, I'm Laura. And if we have — hey, friend. 👋
Either way, I'm glad you're here.
A bit about me… I believe it all connects. The marketing, the customer experience, the money, the systems. All of it. And if you want those lofty dreams to actually come true, you can't copy-paste any of it from someone else's business.
I also believe you can build a wildly successful business without building yourself out of it — or treating the people who buy from you like transactions.
If you want to go deeper on what it actually looks like to fold more hospitality into your marketing, come devour my private podcast, Welcome In: This Is Hospitality in Marketing. We get into the hows, the whys, and real case studies — so you can see how people are giving a shit in every part of their business, creatively, and without burning themselves to the ground doing it.
Here’s everything you need to know.
Scroll down to stream every episode from this page, or add it to your Podcast feed and listen on the go here.
Don’t miss the live Roundtables! Bring your questions and let’s dig deeper 🤩 See all the details and don’t miss any updates right here. (recordings will land right below here within 24-hours… but, you’ll have a chance to connect with the rad folks on the call and build connections and collaborations if you can turn up live)
Have a listen. And then tell me what you think. If you leave your honest feedback by the time the summit closes and snag a $20 off coupon code as a thank you. Use it on anything in the shop, now or for any of the bold goodies coming your way [hint hint wink wink, big things comin’]
Free Access Ends Midnight ET on May 31.
Hop on in and enjoy!
ROUNDTABLE + NETWORKING LIVE
1. Marketing on Your Own Terms | For the people quietly tired of being told there's only one way to do this
2. Build It So It Actually Holds Them | The hospitality systems behind memberships, programs, and offers people stick around for
3. Beyond the Conversion Rate | What it actually takes to build a business people stay in
The Sessions
They are all here. Binge all at once, or trickle through.
Wanna listen on the go in your podcast app? Cool. Click the button 👇.
The Book That Brings You Leads for a Decade.
Writing With Strategy, Not Just for a Bestseller Tag
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Holly Ostrout is a book + publishing coach for impact-driven entrepreneurs who want one damn good book that brings in high-ticket clients, lands paid speaking gigs, and helps their work get noticed, shared, and talked about. Her Heroine’s Journey approach makes the writing process humane and the book unforgettable.
With her signature Book Mapping process, alongside her business-first Strategy Stacks and page-turner framework, the Heroine’s Journey, she helps clients turn messy ideas into masterful books that pull their weight—attracting premium clients, opening doors to stages, and building momentum that lasts for years to come.
Holly has spent over a decade in publishing, including reviving CliffsNotes from effectively out-of-print to nearly $1M in just 12 months. She’s also written four books of her own, holds a master’s in publishing, and has helped dozens of entrepreneurs write + publish books that do more than look pretty, but also keep readers engaged from the first page and get them excited to say yes before you even speak. -
The 6-Figure Multi-Revenue Book Guide
People who write books without a strategy are people who waste months of their lives. :( This guide will show you the 5 main (+1 bonus!) ways to make REAL money with your book + how to design your book to open the doors you want opened (before writing a single page!).
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Hi Holly.
Holly Ostrout (00:09)
Hey.
Laura Kendrick (00:09)
I'm really excited you're here. And I'm really excited that you are here to talk about books in this way of connecting with the people and having some human centered marketing and you know, the whole holistic marketing thing because books are a really interesting marketing piece. So welcome.
Holly Ostrout (00:31)
Yeah, thank you. They're a really interesting marketing piece that a lot of people feel like is something they can't achieve. Like it always feels big. And then they'll see somebody that has a book and they're like, wait, that person was able to write a book? I could definitely do it then.
Laura Kendrick (00:39)
Mmm.
I just flashed back to high school on that one. Like, that person got an A, well I can get an A.
Holly Ostrout (00:51)
Yeah.
My ex-boyfriend?
It's so true.
Laura Kendrick (00:55)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, I feel that. Okay, before we dive in though, tell the people just a little bit about you.
Holly Ostrout (01:03)
Yeah, so I'm a book and publishing coach. Mostly women entrepreneurs come to me, but I have a few guys here. And the whole thing is that I help people write a damn good book that helps them open the doors for their business that they want open. So if you want more high ticket clients, if you want more speaking gigs, if you want more hands-off sales because you're sick of clients, if you want to go for like big partnerships with corporations or nonprofits, all of these are different opportunities that you
book could bring for you. And so I teach people how to write a book and guide them through writing a book that helps them open up the doors that they want, not just a generic whatever book, just so they can have something on Amazon.
Laura Kendrick (01:45)
Right?
I really want to be a fly on the wall for the sales call for the person who comes to you and is like, I hate the people. Help me write a book.
Holly Ostrout (01:53)
A lot of people do start with pettiness as a significant driver, and I think that that's fine. We all have to work through it.
Laura Kendrick (02:00)
That'll be the topic of the next Holistic Marketing Summit. Pettiness. So good. Okay, so I, yes, and I've seen a lot of people write books and it does seem to be almost, so often I see them use it as just this like little credibility marker and that seems to be almost the only thing that they find a way to.
Holly Ostrout (02:05)
Winning for pettiness. Yeah, I love it.
Laura Kendrick (02:26)
market as like author or bestselling author or what have you and that's kind of all you ever see of this book and I love that you are talking about this in a much bigger way.
Holly Ostrout (02:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, that literally makes me rage. Like I've been doing a lot of meditation lately, so I don't rage like outwardly as much, but I'll still feel like that inner spark of rage. And it is specifically because so many people like say, ⁓ write an Amazon bestseller. And like, first of all, don't pay $2,000 for that because you can hack that with a 15 minute blog post that you can find on Google. It's super easy. But number two, like the point of the book should not be to call yourself a bestselling author. That is like a cherry on top.
Laura Kendrick (03:08)
Yeah.
Holly Ostrout (03:10)
If you are doing it just to call yourself an author, just to say you've written a book because you think it's going to help you get more speaking gigs, you're going about it backwards and it's not going to help you or your business ecosystem. So you need to step back and do it the right way.
Laura Kendrick (03:24)
Okay, so
share a little bit, like what is the right way? How does this help your ecosystem?
Holly Ostrout (03:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, so first of all, you want to obviously know what door you want to open with it because having...
Laura Kendrick (03:34)
my, I love any
marketing that starts with that. Like, why are we doing this? What's the goal? Yes.
Holly Ostrout (03:39)
Right, why are you...and most
people don't. Most people say...
Okay, all of my competitors say bestselling author on their Facebook banner. So my Facebook banner needs to say bestselling author too. So I need to take this course that says become a bestselling author in 30 days. That's not, it's reputation destroying for many people. They'll write a book, they'll hack the Amazon bestseller tag, and then everybody who reads the book is like, yikes, if this is how she teaches, if this is what her speeches sound like, if this is how she works with people, and I feel like not good about what I've just
Laura Kendrick (03:45)
It's a checkbox. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Holly Ostrout (04:13)
read, then it can be a reputation destroying and I've seen it happen. So the right way to start is start with what door you want to open and getting a bestseller tag should not be one of those doors because that is not revenue generating. And then once you know like what you want from it, then you need to write a book that is going to stick with people that they're going to enjoy. So the way I work with clients is that we have a framework that I've created called the Heroines Journey. It's evidence-based. It's not just a cute name and it is
Laura Kendrick (04:25)
Right.
Holly Ostrout (04:43)
designed specifically to make readers not only read your book because I think it's 63 % of readers, either 63 or 68 % of readers will just give up on a book and only 18 % of nonfiction books are ever finished by their reader. So yeah, obviously we don't want to be that.
We want to be in that 18 % of books that people actually finish reading, that of non-fiction books that people actually finish reading, but it's so low. And so the way you do that, so the heroine's journey guides you through that because it turns the reader into the heroine instead of being a spectator on the author's, like, hero's journey.
Laura Kendrick (05:03)
What?
that's such a good shift. like, I mean, that's a huge part of what makes good copy and bad copy too. Is it about you or is it about them? Yeah.
Holly Ostrout (05:31)
Yeah, exactly,
exactly. And so most people write books that are like, here's what I did, here's why it worked, here's some case studies to make you believe me. All those are good things. Like we need to have social proof, you know? But a book is not a social media post. Like trust is built in a different way when people read a book than when they read an email or they read a social media post.
Laura Kendrick (05:55)
Yeah,
yeah, that's so interesting. So how do you see it fitting into the kind of the whole marketing plan situation?
Holly Ostrout (06:06)
yeah. So.
When a book is done right, it should be bringing you leads for five to 10 years or more sometimes, but it should not be like, I wrote a book this year and it's working and now next year I have to write another book. You can if you want, but one book, if you do it right, should be bringing you leads for five to 10 years, growing over time, not diminishing over time. like social media post is gone in 48 hours. The book is actually getting better and better each month because more people are recommending it. So when you get somebody
Laura Kendrick (06:12)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Holly Ostrout (06:37)
a transformation with your book that they couldn't get anywhere else, then they recommend your book. When they recommend your book, then the marketing expounds on its own without you having to really do anything at all. Yeah, I love it.
Laura Kendrick (06:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, because that's so true. Like I see it over and over and over again where people are, they really are churning out books or they like write the one and leave it to language. And that's kind of it. They like break something off of somebody else's best practice that doesn't quite fit them where they, you know, build the street team or what have you. And so it has this big like push in the beginning to get those numbers up. And then it just kind of withers away.
But I'm also very, like you just put all the hackles up on the back of my neck when you were like, I've seen it destroy, done wrong, it destroys people. I'm like, damn.
Holly Ostrout (07:29)
Yeah, I mean I wouldn't tell them that, but then you see like they're fighting against it for the next like five years.
Laura Kendrick (07:36)
But it's a
good point. mean, it's yeah. Yeah, I totally get it. So how like, what are are there any creative ways that you see people or you see the use of books like outside of like I heard somebody give a talk once that I found some interesting insights in about how you can market with books. But a lot of people, especially those who haven't written a book, they assume that it it's kind of its revenue stream of its own.
And then also it is just, again, that like credibility or authority builder and they don't really see how you can utilize it. How are, like, how do you see that? Like, how can it be used outside of it is just something that can make some money, which for a lot of people doesn't make a ton of money because it's not, you is what it is.
Holly Ostrout (08:24)
Yeah,
if your book's not making money then you need to revisit that.
and examine why, because books should be returning at least 10 times what you invest in. And I have a client who, within three years, had returned 2,000 % of what she had invested in her book. And it goes back to those doors of opportunity, right? So if you want more clients, then we write the book to specifically build trust with clients in that way. And then people recommend it, clients come to you. the beauty of it for this particular example is that
Laura Kendrick (08:39)
wow.
Holly Ostrout (08:58)
the half of the sales conversation is already done. it's getting leads is like the consistent problem for everyone no matter where we are in business, right? You always have to get more leads. Maybe not a problem, but it's always something you're thinking about. And wouldn't it be great if leads came to you more easily? And so that's what the book solves for you is like whatever you are trying to sell, whether that's, don't want to do clients anymore. I just want to go travel the world and speak four or five times a year and that's my income.
Laura Kendrick (09:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Holly Ostrout (09:28)
the
right book can position you for that, whereas not having a book is not. So when you think about like, the data shows that like without a book, most people can get maybe 500 or a thousand dollars for a speech. With a book, they can get 20,000, 50,000, sometimes more. And that's of course gonna be...
related to how much experience you have and how charismatic you are. But you can have that same charisma and experience without a book and still be getting those $500 speeches, whereas just having a good book can change that for you. And so the power of it is that it amplifies what you do in a way that is more hands-off. So you do it once, and it is there for you and doesn't disappear like your LinkedIn post would if you're on LinkedIn.
Laura Kendrick (10:15)
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I love it. It's and now you've got all these like gears turning in my head because well, I mean, I haven't said it to the outside world, but I have a book floating in my own brain. Yeah, I know. I mean, you and I have talked about this. So it's but as you are saying these things, I'm like, first of all, having these crushing moments of like, oh, God, don't ruin everything. And then also, oh, that sounds fun to travel around and just talk.
Holly Ostrout (10:39)
Yeah, and that's what some people want to do.
Laura Kendrick (10:42)
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. So when you see kind of the average Joe coming in, how are most people positioning books well now? How are they using it as a tool? Because I've heard people use it as the marketing tool of like the talk I heard where the person was actually talking about how most books don't make a ton of money, which I'm finding really interesting. He was very good from selling on stage, but I do wonder about what was happening behind the scenes.
But it's just that he was talking about how you can use it as like going out into the world, going to in-person events and leveraging the book like as a gift, as you know, these giveaways that helps kind of tip people into where you want them to go and helps you in essence, sell from the stage or sell from the side of the room. How are you seeing these like, for instance, people who are like, you know, making 2000 times what they invested into it and stuff like that, how are they
Holly Ostrout (11:24)
yeah.
Laura Kendrick (11:43)
What are some of those tactics that they're using to actually use this book to get them to where they want to go?
Holly Ostrout (11:49)
Yeah, okay, so that's great. ⁓ That's one of the strategies that I would use with clients, but when I work with people, I try to develop a plan that's based on levers that we can pull that are tried and true, but also...
Laura Kendrick (12:06)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Ostrout (12:08)
it fits in seamlessly with their life. You know, I don't want somebody to feel like, okay, if you want to make this book work, you need to go book three keynotes and then you need to give away a hundred copies at each one. Because some people that would sound like, wait, I did all this work and that sounds like a freaking nightmare. I do not want to do that, right? And so we kind of look at what people are already good at and then we build it on top of that. But so the one you're talking about, that is a tried and true strategy. So if you think about it, if you
Laura Kendrick (12:11)
for sure, for sure.
What?
Holly Ostrout (12:38)
are already going to do speaking, if that's what you love to do, yeah, you could give away 100 copies of a $20 paperback, which is not gonna, it's gonna cost you like probably seven or eight dollars. And so that's a seven or eight dollar lead. And if you think about typical conversion rates, you're gonna have people coming to you from that. depending on the cost of your packaging, ⁓ it's very easy to make the math work on that and to say, and also because
it's a gift people feel very grateful for it and they're already more inclined to to want to read it and support you because you've supported them with that free gift and they enjoyed your talk and they want to ⁓
Laura Kendrick (13:20)
and you sign their book
and have a conversation. Yeah.
Holly Ostrout (13:21)
sign your book, yeah, and then they know you, right? And so that's
another thing that a book does is it like helps people know you because they're spending already five to ten hours with you, kind of a one-to-one conversation just reading it. yeah, so that is a strategy that definitely still works where you give away the book to people who are already predisposed to like you and may just need a little push. And it's kind of just like sending somebody to your webinar except for it feels less salesy. They go into it
the lower, like their nervous system isn't activated when they read a book. I love it too.
Laura Kendrick (13:54)
Mmm, I love that. Yeah, truly. A
nervous system that's activated is like the opposite of where I want to be in life. And yeah, I love that you said that. It's, and my brain just skipped a beat, so that's fun. ⁓ There was something in there.
Holly Ostrout (14:04)
Right?
Laura Kendrick (14:14)
so how do you see books as like building connection? Like I hear the whole, feel like they've been on like a 10 hour conversation with you from reading the book. And I totally agree with that. But like I'm kind of threading the needle through this idea of hospitality and marketing and how we can cultivate that with a tool like a book, especially because a book like
Holly Ostrout (14:33)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (14:39)
Yes, it has a much longer shelf life, but it also takes a lot longer to put it together. The investment in time and money to like get it out the door is much more significant than that LinkedIn post. So it's like, how do you utilize this thing that you really like bled and sweated and cried into and all of your like kind of all the goodness is put into it much more in depth than that LinkedIn post. And you just kind of feel this
Holly Ostrout (15:06)
Yep.
Laura Kendrick (15:07)
pride and passion and then it's like, okay, how does this actually bridge the gap to building those relationships with the people?
Holly Ostrout (15:14)
Yeah, okay, so first of all, don't bleed and sweat into it, because this is not gladiator, and like, I'm not the emperor. It should not feel like that, number one.
Laura Kendrick (15:24)
That's fair. That's fair.
Holly Ostrout (15:26)
But I know a lot of people, it does feel like that, but I feel like they're starting with the wrong strategy or no strategy at all.
Laura Kendrick (15:30)
It's, well, it's
daunting going in. And especially for people who haven't, like, I spend a ridiculous amount of time in grad school, so like, it can literally crank out 20 pages of ⁓ a chapter of a thesis a day and just like keep on churning. So it doesn't feel like that to me. But to people who haven't done that, the idea of like writing 20 pages at all is like, know, and so it's that it can, I get it, that it's a big mountain for some people to climb.
Holly Ostrout (15:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
same.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. But I mean, just remember, if your ex-boyfriend from high school could do it, then you can too. But, he got it.
Laura Kendrick (16:06)
He got the A! Did your ex-boyfriend
Holly Ostrout (16:08)
how does it connect with people? if you just put your best blog post together or you just do what everybody says and just sit down and open a Google Doc and start writing, it won't. You need a structure. so...
Going back to the Heroines Journey, the reason that it works is because it's built on how our brains work as adult learners and well, all learners, but adult learners specifically. ⁓ That's the background I come from. Because in order to retain information, we need anchors. And in order to...
act on information, we need to retain it in order to get meaning out of it, we need to act on it. And so all of those things have to work together. ⁓ So when you're writing your book with the right structure, it needs this narrative kind of built on top of the teaching, and it has to align in a certain way so that these anchors are triggered. Then people are starting to, like when you teach a key moment, it sticks in their brain. And...
Laura Kendrick (17:12)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Ostrout (17:14)
then they keep thinking about it, you know, and they keep thinking about it because ⁓ the story connected with them. And then they act on it, and then they think,
Lara told me to do this and it was really good. And that just made a huge difference in my life already just with this one little tiny tweak. And so they're already more predisposed to like you. And so that works over kind of nine moments in the book. And in a lot of cases, people don't even need to read the full book to feel like they know people. I've had clients who had people reach out to them after chapter three already like, okay, send me the checkout link kind of.
Laura Kendrick (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Ostrout (17:55)
no sales conversation really needed other than when do we start. Yeah, me too.
Laura Kendrick (17:58)
my gosh, that's amazing. I love that. mean, yeah,
let's go. Let's do this. All right. So we're all running out the door to start writing our books and working with Holly as we do it.
Holly Ostrout (18:12)
No bleeding.
Laura Kendrick (18:13)
Maybe a little sweat as you run out the door. All right. Well, Holly, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, your wisdom. It's really interesting. And it's got the wheels turning in my brain that we're already turning, but now they're expanding, which is what I love the most about these conversations. But before we sign off here, where can people find you?
Holly Ostrout (18:38)
Yep, so if you want to find out which door of opportunity...
is best for to open and how to turn that into an actual revenue stream with a book. You can take my quiz and find your strategy stack, that's what I call them, and that's hollyaustraut.com slash quiz. And if you do the quiz and get your strategy stack, you'll get a three day challenge. And if you do those three little challenges, you get free feedback from me on each one. So it's basically free book coaching and you will finish it with basically your entire introduction already written. So you will be ahead of the game. I know.
Laura Kendrick (19:10)
Sweet. Man.
Holly Ostrout (19:12)
It's pretty great. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (19:13)
Yeah,
I'm excited. This sounds so fun. Well, thank you so much for being here.
Holly Ostrout (19:19)
Yay! It was really fun. Thank you, Laura.
Your Nervous System Is Running Your Marketing.
How to Stop Self-Sabotaging Your Growth
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Renee Bowen is a photographer, coach, and host of the podcast Tried & True with a Dash of Woo. She helps creative entrepreneurs build profitable businesses without abandoning themselves in the process, blending psychology, subconscious reprogramming, and real-world strategy to create growth that feels sustainable, powerful, and deeply aligned.
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Safe to Be Seen Morning Activation
This 4-minute morning activation is designed to help you regulate your nervous system and step into visibility with calm confidence. It’s quick, powerful, and easy to weave into your daily ritual before you open your laptop, hit record, or show up online.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Renee, I'm so pumped that you are here. It's gonna be so good. Yeah, let's do it, let's do it. Before we do though, I'm sure there's a couple of people on this, there shouldn't be any really, but there might be a couple who don't know who you are, but really should know who you are. So will you spill the beans just a little bit about who you are?
Renee Bowen (00:12)
I'm so pumped to be here. Let's get into it.
Thank you. Yeah, I am, I'm a coach for creatives. I've also been a photographer for like 20 plus years, but I coach creatives to really kind of get to the root of like who they actually are and own it unapologetically so they can live a more free life basically.
Laura Kendrick (00:47)
Yes, ⁓ we all need more of that. That's like just, yes. Okay, so, and I love that we're kind of bringing this notion into marketing, which, and before we hit record, you were talking about a loop. Let's dig into the loop because I think, not I think, I know we all fall into this loop. So yeah, start, will you unpack it a little bit for us?
Renee Bowen (00:51)
Freedom, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, there's,
yeah. So, I mean, there can be a kind of a few different, they can look a little different, right, for people. But essentially what it is is, you know, all of us have between what, 60,000 and 80,000 thoughts a day. And they just, I mean, some of us more than others. If we have like a little neuro-spicy anxious brain like myself, right, like so I'm like, no, just 60, you know, I probably have close to 200. And they just go, go, go, go, go.
And the thing about it is that 80 % of those thoughts are usually the same thoughts you had the day before, and the day before, and the day before, and the day before. And so we just sort of like live unconsciously and hypnotically at the end of the day, especially like when you're busy, you're a solopreneur, you're running all your stuff, you're wearing all the hats. And so you kind of get stuck in this place. And what I see a lot is that ceiling that people will hit. So they'll have like a really great launch or they'll
They'll push really hard and they'll make a lot of money, they'll bring some cash flow into the business. And then a couple months later, they're like, what happened? You know what I mean? It's almost like this unconscious, it is this unconscious desire to level it back down, right? Because you have gotten what's happening, yes. What's happening is that your nervous system, your unconscious mind, they're BFFs. And they have decided that that is...
Laura Kendrick (02:27)
safety.
Renee Bowen (02:35)
your safety level because your unconscious mind, its only job is to keep you safe and alive. Like that's it. So if it senses that this is dangerous, like, that that burst of money or this next income or whatever it is, like it could just even be like doing something new, right? It will interpret that as dangerous. That's not safe. We can't be doing that. We need to stay alive. So unconsciously, you're going to be creating these ways to stay at that level, to play it safe, to
Laura Kendrick (02:39)
Right.
Renee Bowen (03:04)
you know, get back down to where it feels safe to have that income in your bank account. Like all of these things, like I said, it could look like a lot of different, in a lot of different ways, but essentially that's what's kind of going on under the surface, is that you are just sort of hypnotically allowing your unconscious mind to keep you safe at the end of the day, which is a very human thing. It's not something to beat yourself up about either. It's just something to notice.
Laura Kendrick (03:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
It's funny because there's like some, and I can't remember the exact numbers, but there's some insane statistic that something like 98 % of people who win big lottery winnings within like three or four years, they are actually worse off than they were. And it comes down to like they weren't energetically prepared to hold on to millions or billions of dollars and they just out the door. Right. Right.
Renee Bowen (03:39)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, and how could they be? Right? If you're living
paycheck to paycheck for your whole life, let's say, right? Like, and you get the burst of money. That's a real big, it's like a trauma, really, to your nervous system. And unless you're prepared and you put some tools in place to make sure things like that doesn't happen, left to your own devices, you're just gonna, it's gonna get you back down.
Laura Kendrick (04:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah,
it's so interesting how like, and that high percentage really illustrates how like, no, this is like across, this is just like a human thing. You're not alone in this.
Renee Bowen (04:30)
Yeah. No,
no, for sure. And I mean, you see this in visibility too. You know what I mean? Like it can be like this in many different ways. Like if, if your unconscious mind, your nervous system doesn't feel like it's safe to put yourself out there because you've got something that just got stuck in your unconscious mind. Maybe you had to be in front of the class at eight or nine years old and you got ridiculed. Your unconscious mind has decided, even though consciously you are a grown ass adult, you know better, right?
Laura Kendrick (04:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (04:57)
your unconscious mind still thinks that it is still happening right now. Because we know that from doing all the, you know, this is science, it's not just woo woo stuff. There is science behind this, that, you know, your unconscious mind with that thought and the emotion, it doesn't know that that still that happened 20, 30 years ago. If you're still feeling the way it made you feel then, then it is still happening right now. And so that's what you're going to see reflected back to you. You're going to
Laura Kendrick (05:04)
Yeah. Right. Right.
Renee Bowen (05:26)
you're anxious, you're going to kind of make yourself small, all of these different things. So paying attention and noticing what's going on there is really, it sounds so simple and it is at the end of the day, but it's not necessarily super easy for people to do that, right? But once you do, that really is the first biggest step for sure.
Laura Kendrick (05:50)
And it's amazing how much we whip ourselves back. And I can think of a million small ways and big ways that I've done it to myself, or I've watched clients, friends do it. It's so interesting, this little psychological check that we put on ourselves. Have you found in your practice coaching and life-ing and all the things, any great little ways to start breaking the cycle?
Renee Bowen (06:18)
yeah, for sure. I mean,
there's a lot of different ways, right? And again, like I always say, it's not one size fits all because you really do need to kind of try things on. And if you have any sort of neurodiversity, which a lot of my clients do, because I work with a lot of creatives and we have what I call spicy brains, right? you know, like either diagnosed ADHD or undiagnosed or, I mean, like it could be all kinds of things, but everybody's brain works differently. And so I really feel like the first thing is to understand that.
Laura Kendrick (06:35)
Mm-hmm.
for sure.
Renee Bowen (06:48)
is that self-awareness of, am I trying to fit myself into this other box that's not gonna work? So I use tools like human design as well inside of my practice, because I kind of feel like it's a little bit of a cheat code for helping people sort of kind of get to at least a little bit more understanding of how their brain works, how they work, where are their energy levels, at what part of the day. Learning how to lean in.
to those little quirks that make you you is a really big deal. And I feel like that's probably why a lot of us were drawn to starting our own businesses in the first place, because like, just either couldn't work for somebody else, you know, we craved this, yes, like we craved this freedom in some way or whatever. Well, there's a reason why. And, you know, unfortunately, there's that meme that's always out there that's like, yeah, so you didn't want to work nine to five, but now you work 24 seven.
Laura Kendrick (07:31)
deeply didn't want to. Yeah.
Renee Bowen (07:46)
Right? And that's that trap. But that is what it really is a trap because unless you start paying attention to it, that is going to be your routine from now on. So I feel like, like I said, the first thing is to notice like, where am I spending my energy? How do I want this to look? Allowing yourself to even just get curious enough to how can I do this differently for myself, for my family? Like if you have a family and you want to like work around that.
Laura Kendrick (07:58)
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (08:16)
You've got to see how you want this business and you want your life to look ⁓ on your own terms and allowing yourself to really dream and design that because you are going to find proof of whatever you're looking for. That is the reticular activating system in your brain and it is science. A lot of the stuff that I talk about sounds woo-woo, but it has its basis in neuroscience and neuroplasticity and biology, really. So if you can sort of like,
Laura Kendrick (08:41)
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (08:45)
break that pattern. That's really the thing. It's like, okay, I noticed that I'm doing this. I don't want to do this anymore. I have to make some different choices. And it really is an internal game. Like it needs to start, like I said, your unconscious mind runs most of the show for most of us, right? We know this. And we kind of get into our routines. And then before we know it, we're like, this is not even the life that I kind of wanted for myself. So
Laura Kendrick (09:00)
Yep. Yeah.
Renee Bowen (09:14)
How do you break that pattern? A lot of people will tell you, know, obviously meditation is a huge piece of it for most people. And there's a lot of pushback from a lot of especially creatives because your brain just sort of goes into default mode when you try and meditate if you're new to it. There's a reason for that. there are various, like there's so many different practitioners now for...
Meditation, like you've got to find what works for you. I personally like hypnosis. I'm certified in hypnosis. And for some reason, like I call hypnosis like the gateway drug to meditation because I always tell people like, I know, you people like, I don't, I can't meditate. Okay. Yes, you can, first of all, but second of all, you've to kind of get you, get you there. And, and hypnosis, you kind of can let yourself off the hook a little bit because
you're just listening to a hypnosis track that for me anyway, I put mine over binaural beats. So you're getting that as well. Sometimes also over subliminal. So you're getting like a triple whammy and you don't have to do anything. You can put this on and just lay down, right? Take a hot bath, put some headphones in or sit down for like 10 or 15 minutes. Just you shouldn't be driving when you listen to it obviously. But you know, like after you've listened to a few hypnosis tracks or like the same one, you can like,
Laura Kendrick (10:31)
Right, right.
Renee Bowen (10:39)
edit photos if you're a photographer, you can be on your computer, you can be doing other things. Your unconscious mind is getting the information. And so it's getting rewired. You just don't really notice it because you don't feel like an actor participate in it basically, right? And then after a couple weeks, you'll start to notice that, oh, that doesn't really feel as charged up anymore as it used to. So that is a really good gateway. For some people, journaling.
Laura Kendrick (10:55)
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (11:09)
is like the key to life. You know what I mean? Like for some people that's a very powerful tool because there is scientific evidence that shows from here to here, writing, like physically writing. Mm-hmm, exactly. But some people are verbal processors, right? And this has a lot to do with human design too. So like if you're a self-projected projector, you actually literally need to be talking this out. And so a lot of my coaching students who are, you have that, I'm like,
Laura Kendrick (11:19)
Right, not typing, right.
Renee Bowen (11:35)
You, your homework is to leave me voxer notes. Like every day, you need to let me know where you're at, what you're doing, like get it out and like physically get it out of your mind. That's a really big piece of it too. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of different tricks. There's somatic therapies, obviously working with your nervous system and nervous system regulation just as a side note to people does not mean being calm all the time. Like I feel like there is definitely a connotation out there because we hear, it's a buzzword now, like yeah.
Laura Kendrick (11:38)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're like the Zen Buddha. Yeah, yeah,
but it's not. Yeah.
Renee Bowen (12:05)
Yeah, it's not that nervous
system regulation just means how are you regulated? Like what regulates you? How do you feel when you're regulated? So you gotta kind of have to know that first before you kind of tap into that. It's not about being somebody else.
Laura Kendrick (12:20)
Yeah, it's funny that I have a, like I too, we've talked about this in the past, I too have a very woo background, like yoga teacher, meditation coach or teacher as well, certified in both of those. And I've like dabbled in all of the things that you have just talked about. And I find I still have a breathwork practice and a neuro rewiring kind of like manifestation practice, if you will.
Renee Bowen (12:44)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (12:46)
And I find that I will definitely do them in like fits and spurts because, you know, life is life. But the days that I do do them and the like moments where I'm really in it, it's like the world feels open. The big things feel like so much easier. And it's like, yeah, here we go. And the days I don't, it's like, ⁓ you know, you can actually start to feel it when you're there. Like you are highly, highly aware of it. So I love I love that you're like tapping into these places because especially in the
Renee Bowen (13:06)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (13:16)
making the bold moves, whatever that is for you, it's so much easier when you feel that openness rather than the like weight.
Renee Bowen (13:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, because you're not reactive. You are in a place of empowerment. like, you know, calm if that's where you want to be, essentially. I have like what I call, peace and calm. Like I say that all the time. I am so peaceful. ⁓ It's one of my mantras. And it's because I have an anxiety brain. Like I'm just wired that way. I have been since childhood.
Laura Kendrick (13:27)
Right. Yeah.
It's like my personal life's mission is calm.
Renee Bowen (13:52)
I didn't know to even call it that until probably my early 20s. once you start to learn how to work with that, then that's where things, like you said, really start to open up. But I have like 15 minutes of non-negotiables every morning. And I'm not that person who can get up and meditate for an hour. I know that about myself. My brain is too active for that. Like when I'm awake, I'm like, let's go. I'm ready. I'm ready to.
start the day, I don't need a slow morning. My husband is completely different. He needs like a good 30 minutes to like ease into his day. And a lot of people do, like it's really common. But me, I'm like, okay, I'm awake, let's go. And so I have to be doing something active, whether it's like a walk or journaling, you know, I pick something that I can do for like 15, 20 minutes, that it's gonna make me feel like I'm on my way to my day. And then,
Laura Kendrick (14:45)
Yeah.
Renee Bowen (14:48)
toward the end of the day is when I can do things like hypnosis and meditation. But again, that's because I know my cycles and I know the rhythm, and that's important.
Laura Kendrick (14:55)
I totally
got an image of you as like almost like a golden retriever waking up in the morning like, yay, life, let's go.
Renee Bowen (15:00)
Ha ha ha!
It is like that. My husband's like, what is happening? Like, why are you like this?
I'm like, there's just so much to do, you know? And I just can't wait to tackle it. And he's like, I'm such a human design generator, like seriously, like I am, I'm like, ready to go. I mean, obviously if I'm not in a phase of burnout, which has happened, right? And that's when I know again, because I think self-awareness is such a, it's a great tool. It can also be, you can also go to the side of like too self-aware where you just like overthink yourself, you know, into staying stuck. But.
Laura Kendrick (15:11)
No!
Yeah!
Renee Bowen (15:38)
that's another sign. It's like, if I'm waking up and I'm feeling like not like that, I know that that's not my baseline. So, okay, what's going on there? Let me lean in and see. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (15:46)
Yeah, yeah,
the self-awareness is so, so key. I love that you said that. And I love that you use a tool like human design, because sometimes that can become so insightful and validate the things that you're like, why does this feel off to me? I'm thinking of an actually personal example where a friend of mine attaches human design actually to ⁓ marketing as well.
And she read my chart at one point. And one thing that she said to me, and she said very specifically in my 50s, but I was like, OK, my message, I'm meant to put my message out there. then somehow in my 50s, it's going to take off, which I'm curious. Sure, sure. But I took that as, I'm the person who listens to the details and not the numbers. So people ask, what's the label? I'm like, I don't know. I just took the information I needed and ran with it.
Renee Bowen (16:23)
Mm-hmm.
Are you a six line, right? Then you must be a six line. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (16:41)
But
Renee Bowen (16:42)
Well, if she
told you that, I'm 99.9 % sure you have a sixth line in your human design because that is very much a hallmark of a sixth line. You have three distinct phases of your life, which is so cool. And 50 and above is usually like the role model where you're stepping into like, ⁓ yep, yep.
Laura Kendrick (16:46)
All right. All right.
All right.
yep, that's what she said. Yeah. But
the thing is, though, is I took that as like, that's interesting because I'm not the kind of person who likes to, like, you know, shine the light on myself. I never have been the person who stands up and is like, look at me, look at me, look at me. And there are people who are really, really good at that. And they're very successful what they do. But it makes me uncomfortable to do that. And so in a slight way, I kind of took that nugget and was like,
And actually in the bottom of all of my emails on my list now, there is an actual invitation and a button that says, if you know somebody who wants to hear this, please share it. And then there's, and then if you are that person, click here and you'll be added to the list. And it's this, okay, this feels really good. Like this is a way to organically get the kind of the ball rolling and connect with the right people in a way that actually
Renee Bowen (17:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (17:56)
jives with who I am. So it's really lovely sometimes to have those little insights, those little nuggets that go, like you can really breathe into it and feel so comfortable with it. And the funny thing is, is I'm not a person who struggles with visibility. Like clearly you're sitting at my summit. But those little things can be these like little bitty game changers. And people click it all the time. I get a couple of weeks of people sharing and clicking in and I'm like,
Renee Bowen (17:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's awesome.
Laura Kendrick (18:26)
That feels good.
Renee Bowen (18:27)
Yes, yes, that's
awesome. Now I know, I started learning about human design probably about six years ago. I was always an astrology girlie. Like I was that girl in college who had like, this is wait, this is in the 90s. This is before people, people were like, what the hell are you doing? ⁓ And I was.
Laura Kendrick (18:36)
Mm.
I was there with you with books. I was like,
what was the one that with like, hang the mirror Feng Shui that was, yeah, I was like, I had all the books. So yeah, no, I'm with you. The 90s were a good growth time for that.
Renee Bowen (18:49)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes,
and I was always into all of that stuff and you know, was a massage therapist as well, you know, in my early 20s. And I found human design and at first I was like, okay, this is kind of cool, it's interesting. And then I started like, really learning about mine and understanding, like it was a really big sort of like aha moment for me. Like, because up until then, again,
Laura Kendrick (19:16)
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (19:19)
I have always been into self-development. mean, I've been in therapy since like my late teens. I have a degree in psychology. I'm like, okay, self-awareness queen, right? Like I felt like, know everything wrong. You know what I mean? Like you get to this place where you're you're so into it, you're so self-aware. ⁓ And then human design came along and I started looking into this and I'm like, my God, like this just like kind of cracked me even.
Laura Kendrick (19:22)
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (19:46)
more wide open because especially being a generator, I do have this internal state of energy. People have always asked me, how do you do everything that you do? And I'm like, I don't know, just do it. Why can't you? And in my mind, I'm like, what's wrong? Yes, yeah, yeah. And I'm a two four. And so like,
Laura Kendrick (19:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
You're talking to a generator, so I'm sitting here like, yes, I totally feel that.
Renee Bowen (20:13)
Learning about being a generator and how I use my energy and really ⁓ getting that, well, just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? And realizing how many times I said yes when it was really an O, I'm like, ⁓ okay, that was really huge. And then learning about that two line, that was really, really, really big for me because not only is that the reason why I need to pull back and go in my cave and have my hermit time and like,
Laura Kendrick (20:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (20:42)
literally be away from everyone. I have to have those periods of time and I always felt really guilty about that. Like why am I, like why do I need to retreat from everyone in my family? And it's not for a long time, but I just needed these moments. So giving myself permission for that and realizing that okay, this is just sort of how I'm designed and it actually makes me a better mother, a better partner, better friend if I honor that, exactly. And then also the other thing about the two line is that
Laura Kendrick (21:04)
Yeah, this is how you heal internally and yeah, yeah, yeah.
Renee Bowen (21:12)
I have always been the kind of person, like if I wanted to teach myself something, I can just learn it in a day. And I'm like, why can't everyone do this? Not everyone is designed that way. And so it's just one of those things where it only gives you really good self-awareness, but it really helps you understand other people too, just in a different way and a lot more, give people a lot more grace as well.
Laura Kendrick (21:17)
Mm-hmm. All right.
Yeah.
Yes,
yes, which is a huge part of having a business, especially one that is folded into this idea of like human centered and hospitality filled that it's like if you give a damn about the people on the other end, you got to kind of start to think about that stuff where it's they're different. Everybody's in their own life journey. And I mean, we all know this inherently, but this day and age, the world is not giving us this feedback of this is what we should be doing. But really,
Renee Bowen (21:40)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (22:01)
It is, like we all want to feel seen and heard. So in turn, why aren't we giving that seen and heard back to our people at the same point honoring the way we work as individual humans as well? mean, it's just, it's all so good. It's just so good.
Renee Bowen (22:17)
Yeah, yeah,
no, and I love, that's why I love what you're doing here with this summit because, know, like I said, left to our own devices, it's really tough out there. For so many of us to compare, right, like if you're on social media for half a second, like, oh, what does this person do? And then I gotta be on threads, and then like, ah, I can't, you know what I mean? Like, you really get so,
Laura Kendrick (22:33)
God. Yeah.
Renee Bowen (22:44)
Even those of us who have been on this journey for a long time and like I said, feel like we have a really good foundation. Everyone is subject to that at some point, right? Like we're human beings. This is just like our experience here on earth. And so it's really important to just remind ourselves and remind each other, which is why, like I said, I'm glad that you're doing this and putting up like a spotlight on that, because at the end of the day,
It's humans and humans, right? It's how are we connecting? And I built my photography business on relationship based. I built my coaching business on that. It's an intentional design where it's like, I don't wanna just turn and burn this. I want my people to feel seen. I want them to feel connected, not only to the message, but to themselves. Really? And that's my why. I want people to just be the most them.
Laura Kendrick (23:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Renee Bowen (23:41)
that they can possibly be, like period. And if you're just doing that, you're like ahead of the game, truly.
Laura Kendrick (23:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
For sure for sure and it just yeah, it builds a business at the end of the day where your clients customer students Whatever you want to call them feel Held and therefore will do your some of your marketing for you because they're gonna share that feeling outward But then you get to feel good, too So it's just you and you feel good in that you're connected to it and you're connected to the people
Renee Bowen (23:57)
Mm-hmm.
yes.
Laura Kendrick (24:14)
But you're also connected to the business. I often think about this of the businesses that have built all the boundaries in the walls where you don't have access to the humans and it's very transactional. That to me personally, feel like sure, the huge amounts of income would feel great for a while, I'm sure. But then at some point, I would probably become so disconnected from it that it becomes a thing of like, I don't really care what happens. This is not a.
Renee Bowen (24:41)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (24:43)
for me anymore. And then it's just the passion's gone, at least for me. And I love that grounding into these relationships with myself, with other people, in a way that feels great and like adding that little nugget at the bottom of the email list. And like honestly, every time I get that little notification that somebody clicked that, I'm like, yes. And I mean, it's not hundreds of thousands of people who are clicking it, but it's a trickle. But it still is like,
Renee Bowen (24:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
Laura Kendrick (25:13)
That was worth the 15 minutes of my life to listen to myself, honor myself, and put that there. And the coolest thing is it's resonating with people, which makes me feel so validated that keeps me in my business, which is like, oh my god, yes. Just yes. I mean, so good.
Renee Bowen (25:30)
Exactly. Yeah, we all
need that. We all need that reinforcement. And you know, I mean, the more you give your unconscious mind that reinforcement, that's why it's always so good at the end of the day. tell people, it's one of my things that I my coaching students, we get into this, especially as generators, we kind of get into this thing where we're like,
Laura Kendrick (25:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (25:50)
what did I even do today, right? And we did a lot. But like, you know, it feels like a lot, like because we've got so many moving parts and families and all of these other things. So one of the things that I do at the end of the day that I suggest a lot of people do too is you don't have to write it down, you can leave yourself a voice note, but physically identify at least three things that you did today. And it doesn't have to be like, ⁓ I created an email funnel. Like, okay, that's great if that's what you did, but I texted a friend who I compared
completely like forgot about texting the last two weeks or I needed to get back to you or I checked in with my mom. You know what I mean? like what? Yeah, I sat down and I read a book.
Laura Kendrick (26:28)
Yeah, I rested. Yeah, yeah,
Renee Bowen (26:34)
for 10 minutes,
Laura Kendrick (26:34)
yeah.
Renee Bowen (26:34)
like all of those things really, really matter, but we don't notice, we're not intentional about noticing a lot of these things. And so it tends to feed that monster of like, you didn't do enough. Like, no, I did, I did, calm down, you know, and I gotta get it out of my unconscious too, before I try and rest and sleep so that I can wake up excited about life and not carrying over.
Laura Kendrick (26:46)
Yes, yes.
Renee Bowen (27:03)
from the day before.
Laura Kendrick (27:05)
as a generator, have really embraced in the last couple of years, the moments where I do rest, where I do take it slow, where I'm, I know I'm energetically drained and I allow myself to just, well, there's two hours between calls. I'm just gonna sit down, watch TV, I don't care. And that it's, you know, and in years past, I would have, I mean, it would have been like self-flagellation about it, you know, and it's just horrible. But now I'm like, no, my body was screaming.
Renee Bowen (27:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (27:35)
for this rest and to have those very full, energetic, get it done days that I so often have, I have to listen to my body and allow it to just take the pause when it needs it.
Renee Bowen (27:45)
Yeah.
Yes, and people don't realize too, that really is slowing down to go faster. It feels counterproductive because we've been conditioned, and it's also sort of our wiring, this generator's, but a lot of projectors I see, right, they're trying to fit into a generator world and literally beating themselves up constantly that they don't have that same energetic level. so whatever human designer, don't even know your human design, listening, listening to those little whispers is a really,
Laura Kendrick (27:53)
Mm-hmm.
Renee Bowen (28:19)
a big piece of it because you need to kind of install that into your unconscious mind. That's a program. If you want to think of it, I always liken our brains to computers because that's just the way that my brain works. it's like your operating system, right? You do have to upgrade it and you do need to turn your computer off every once in a while or it starts to not work. It gets overloaded.
Laura Kendrick (28:39)
Right? Right? It's overheating. The smoke's coming
out of its ears.
Renee Bowen (28:45)
when you have
150 Chrome tabs open, like I do on any given moment.
Laura Kendrick (28:48)
Can you see my screen right now? Yeah.
Renee Bowen (28:51)
You gotta shut some of those down and I hate when I have to do that because I'm like, no, I'll never find them again. You know, but at this, yes. Yes, exactly. But that's the same idea. You gotta give your brain a reboot and not feel guilty about it.
Laura Kendrick (28:57)
One tab, you have to embrace one tab.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I love it.
Well, thank you so much for bringing this whole idea and conversation. It's so important and needed. And I feel like it's one we often hear early on in this entrepreneurial journey. And then as we get further into it, people kind of stop talking about it because it's almost this assumption that like you figured it all out. And it's like, no, no, no.
We need these reminders. We need these reminders of like, no. And it gets, the more you can lean into these things and who you are and how you work, the better it's all gonna work. And cause the people at the other end can feel the energy. You can create sustainable systems that support you. Your marketing feels good. And just, yeah. And as we started this whole thing, you're able to hold on to the gains that you make rather than, you know,
Renee Bowen (29:37)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (30:03)
that nervous system whiplashing back down. So thank you.
Renee Bowen (30:05)
Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. Thank you for having me. This was such a great and fun conversation. I love talking about all of this.
Laura Kendrick (30:14)
It's always
so fun to talk to you. Before we head out, will you share where people can find you on this big bad interwebs that we have here?
Renee Bowen (30:16)
Titto.
Yeah, I'm pretty much Renee Bowen across the board. know, renebowen.com and on most socials Renee Bowen or some version of that. And I do have a podcast called Tried and True with the Dash of Woo as well. Where we kind of blend a little bit of the strategy and the tried and true things with the magical, the mystical, the neuroscience.
Laura Kendrick (30:44)
It's
a perfect combination. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you again.
Renee Bowen (30:48)
Thank you.
From Cold to Warm to Buyer.
The Four-Step Nurture System Most Businesses Skip
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Chris Williams is a 7-figure entrepreneur, bestselling author, Featured FORBES coach, and soulful business mentor for women coaches and holistic entrepreneurs who challenges the outdated rules of business. She built multiple thriving businesses from scratch while raising a family of five, and now empowers women to create financial freedom, authentic influence, and lasting legacy—without sacrificing their well-being or values.
Through her signature Soulful Abundance System®, Chris has helped thousands of women grow aligned, boutique businesses that support the life they truly desire. She believes success should feel expansive, fulfilling, and free—because ambition without alignment isn’t success at all.
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Core 4 revenue generators for a boutique 100k-500k coaching business
A full guide on the CORE 4 revenue-generating activities that drive 80% of your income.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Christine, thank you so much for being here. I am really excited for this conversation because it's actually something that's been like pinging around my brain lately. So I'm really excited you're here. Before we get started though, please tell the people who don't know who you are but really should know who you are just a little bit about who you are.
Christine Williams (00:26)
⁓ Thank you, Laura. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to dive into today's topic. So I am Christine Williams. I am the bestselling author of the Soulful Abundance System. And that is a system that helps women entrepreneurs grow beautiful boutique businesses. So we're looking at that 100K, 500K range where we've got income coming in to support what it is that we want to do, but we...
get to do it at a high profit margin, lean team, if any, and just have that time freedom that we want to have. I know that there's typically we see a lot of people that are either just helping the newbies or trying to help you get to 10 million. And the way that I have built and grown my business that works really well for me and my family and my life is just to have this really nice sweet spot of building and growing a boutique business with plenty of time freedom. I get to take the last week off every month. I get to travel with my kids and I get to do
meaningful work in helping other women build and grow businesses that make an impact and also prosper.
Laura Kendrick (01:27)
I love that. I like especially love that because I am a person who I hate personally hate the advice and I know some people love it, but I hate the advice where it's like the steps to business like grow the business, hit a threshold and then hire a team. I'm like, I don't want a team. I don't want a team.
Christine Williams (01:42)
Yeah, same, same, same.
Oh my gosh. Yes, I'm so with you. I mean, I remember at one time, and this was years ago, but one of my coaches, I think it might've been like in 2019, she's like, Chris, you gotta get out of your business. You gotta stop doing all the coaching. You gotta stop doing, and I'm like, but that's the part that I love. I'm like, I don't want a team. I don't wanna manage, you know, a team to do, like, and so I really just decided no.
Laura Kendrick (02:00)
Yeah.
Christine Williams (02:08)
I don't want an empire. don't need a 10 million dollar a year business. I'm really good at half a million a year. I mean, like who wouldn't be right? I'm good with that with a lean team. I have part time VA who helps me behind the scenes and that feels so, good and it feels spacious. And that's really what I want. Not that there's anything wrong. If you want to build out a team, mean, absolutely. There are many, many businesses that want to grow, grow bigger and scale bigger. But for me, I knew that I just did not want to
Laura Kendrick (02:34)
course.
Christine Williams (02:38)
you know, bring on a big team that I needed to manage and have to pay payroll and to worry about making those expenses every month and oversee things. I wanted to continue to do the work that I love to do, which is having, you know, intimate conversations with people and helping them with business.
Laura Kendrick (02:53)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you. And I love that
you're making space for that because not enough people do. And as you said, not that there's anything wrong with any way of doing it, having a whole huge, bold dreams to become billionaires, like amazing rock on, not what I'm looking for in life. And that's cool too. So yeah.
Christine Williams (03:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well,
and you know, I think the other piece of this is that sometimes we get caught in the more money you make, the more successful you are. And what I began to see, even with my own colleagues, is that even people that are making a million dollars a year, we're only taking home 15%. And I'm like,
Laura Kendrick (03:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Christine Williams (03:31)
wait a minute, you are now doing more work that you don't even love to do. You're taking home less money than you would if you were, and I'm like, that just doesn't resonate for me. It doesn't make sense for me. And so I also had to wrap my head around the idea that, all right, I'm good with not having a million dollar a year business, but that doesn't mean that I'm not successful. And it doesn't mean that I can't hold space for people who might even need to learn from me that are at the million dollar, the $2 million level.
Laura Kendrick (03:38)
Yep.
Christine Williams (04:00)
in their business. So, you I had to really own my lane, own my space and say, my success is not dependent on the, you know, or my value is not dependent on that yearly income rate. if I'm not a seventh of your business owner, I really haven't like hit the epitome of success.
Laura Kendrick (04:01)
Right?
my gosh. Yeah.
And yeah, you and I stand at the exact same soapbox because I couldn't agree more. Yeah, you just have to kind of be measuring all of your things, whatever those benchmarks are that you measure against that mean success to you. You really have to measure them against your own benchmarks. I just saw something from a British guy. I wish I can remember his name right now. Yesterday, he was talking about the way to success was the fact that
Christine Williams (04:35)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (04:48)
you have to just measure against what you did yesterday. And it's not about measuring against, you know, the person in the room next door. It's about how you're moving forward and where you want to move forward to, which I was like, yes, preach my friend, preach.
Christine Williams (04:51)
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yes. my gosh.
Yes. Yes. That reminds me of Dan Sullivan's book, The Gap and the Gain. He talks about that.
Laura Kendrick (05:10)
Mmm.
Christine Williams (05:10)
And it is, you know, we do, we can't like measure our success based on, you know, like some ideal, you know, like, well, I haven't gotten there yet and I haven't gotten there yet because full transparency, that's going to change. It's like moving to the next line, right? You're going to get there and be like, but here's the next thing that I need to, you know, be or do. We get to measure, you know, backwards. We measure successes based on how far we've come and making sure that it's in alignment with what is it we value.
Laura Kendrick (05:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right, right. that is such a, my gosh, like it's such a good point because that is, you can get so lost in, and that's the thing where you, we have that whiplash where we just keep limiting ourselves because I am not Amy Porterfield. And I honestly like, I am so happy that somebody like her exists and like that is amazing, but I do not aspire for her business because it's just not what I want. And that's just not who I am.
Christine Williams (05:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (06:07)
And
I love that we live in a world that makes space for that, but also being able to pull in the narrative and pull out the threads we need that helps us understand that. Because so often, larger narrative that's coming at us is the, well, this is the benchmark. You should first hit six figures and then hit seven figures and then hit multi-seven figures. And if you're not doing these things, failure for you.
Christine Williams (06:27)
Yep. Yep.
Yes. my gosh. Right. I'm
like the hell no for that now. I'm like, no, no. I actually had a conversation with somebody who was going to or wanted me to come and talk. And then, you know, we were talking about, you know, she's like, well, you know, she only brings millionaires on her business. And I'm like, that's fine. Like I that's not what I do. That's not what I want. And when I started talking about, you know, my life and my values and the way that my business is run, she was just leaning in and it was like,
Gosh, I really want that. Right. And I'm like, I am confident enough in what it is that I know and what it is that I teach that I energetically can absolutely hold space and be in rooms with people that are making million dollars and multiple million dollars without feeling less than because I created a business that works for me. Absolutely. We just need more people to talk about that, to let people know and let women know like, no, it's actually OK. Like, it's totally OK.
Laura Kendrick (07:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and that's hard. Yeah, good for you.
Yeah,
yeah. But I think we all also get caught in the comparison game, even when we are okay. Like you, there are a number of big names out there that are on the tip of like many of these listeners tongues that I know, I've met them. We're friends on some level. Like, you know, we've been in the same spaces physically and you know, we've had dinner, all the things.
Christine Williams (07:43)
Yep.
Laura Kendrick (07:49)
And they're still, it is funny because you still, even though you see them as human, they're, you know, like they're friends, they're all the things, you can still get caught in that cycle of like, but they're running, like this is year five of their, you know, multimillion dollar business and I'm not there. And you have to like catch it and be like, but that's not, not what I'm looking for.
Christine Williams (08:03)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes, yes,
yes, yes, it is. It's so easy to get pulled into that. Yeah, that compare and despair for sure.
Laura Kendrick (08:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's definitely biological, but anywho.
It's
the thing we all need to feel in our own way. Because I, and the funny thing is, is all of those people, like the Amy Porterfield, all of the people out there, unless you are like deeply egotistical, which so few people are at that level, that you are, you're always gonna feel it. There's always gonna be someone else you're comparing to or something else. And I would wager that at a certain level, I wouldn't know, cause I'm not a multi, you know, millionaire.
Christine Williams (08:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (08:51)
but I would wager that even at a certain level, they are comparing to people like you and I who are like, oh, the simpler times. You know what I mean?
Christine Williams (08:59)
Yes,
yes, yes. Yeah, well, I mean, we're seeing some of that shift now, you know, with people who are, you know, turning their business models, firing whole teams, making things simpler, coming back to foundations, coming back to the basics, right, which is, you know, things that everybody needs to learn and be implementing, regardless of what level of success or income stream that they want to make.
And that's I want to, I know we kind of went off on a side tangent here today, but to totally fine. I love, love talking about this, but you know, we're.
Laura Kendrick (09:22)
my gosh.
We so did, but it needs to be heard
too. So yeah, I love this eye tangent.
Christine Williams (09:31)
Yes, my gosh, absolutely. I just want to share that we get to create that success in
a way that works for us. But also, we don't know what's playing out behind the scenes, even with these, the larger coaches that look like they're making a gazillion dollars, when really a profit margin for them is 15, 20, 30 % or whatever. And really, that's fine. And they're good with that, right? It's just not the way that I personally...
Laura Kendrick (09:42)
Yes.
Christine Williams (09:59)
want to build and grow my business because I want things to be more simple.
Laura Kendrick (10:04)
For sure, I'm right there with you. So
in that simplicity kind of vibe and in the like where we were originally aiming and the thing that has been pinging in my head lately is an idea of nurturing leads and doing it in a way that actually leads to a sale in the whenever that might be and also doing it in a way that doesn't feel gross.
Christine Williams (10:10)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. I don't want to send 100 cold DMS a day. I'm sorry. I'm gonna go for that. ⁓ I'm not doing it.
Laura Kendrick (10:37)
I know. I actually, I
have a friend who we've collaborated in the past. She's not a part of this particular summit, but I need to get her on a summit at some point. She specializes in LinkedIn, and she actually just sent an email out yesterday that was talking about how she had seen something from a content creator on LinkedIn that was, you need to spend two hours a day interacting on LinkedIn, liking, DMing, messaging. And she's like, yeah, well,
if you're a content creator, sure, because that's your whole job. But if you're not a content creator, your whole goal of being on these platforms is to bring people in so you can get off the platform and do your job. And I'm like, yes, just yes. Like, let's sing about that. So yeah, I totally feel you. And when it comes to like the nurturing piece,
Christine Williams (11:09)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (11:33)
I just like that's the part that's been like really pinging through my head lately because I've been thinking a lot about engaged email lists and cultivating email lists of people who actually buy.
Christine Williams (11:37)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah. So here's the thing that I have come to learn over the years. And that is that regardless of whether you are just starting in your business or whether you are at, you know, a million dollar, multimillion dollar level, this piece, this nurture piece typically gets left behind. And what people are talking about is
Laura Kendrick (12:04)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (12:06)
bring more leads in, bring more leads in, bring more leads in. And what ends up happening is that they're not actually doing anything with the leads that are coming in. They're not sure what to do, right? It's like, okay, well, I've sent them through an email sequence. Great, now what do I do? And what they do is they end up focusing on more leads, more leads, more leads, more leads, but they don't take a look at the people that are already in their ecosystem.
Laura Kendrick (12:28)
You are so right. There is a hyper focus on the top of the funnel and the bottom of the funnel. And then there is the conversation of you need to nurture them, but not enough people are talking about how do you actually do that outside of like, well, they went through like my welcome sequence and now they're in a box and I send a newsletter and that's what happens. And hope to God, one of them or a handful of them or a hundred of them eventually warm up enough to walk to the checkout line.
Christine Williams (12:32)
Yeah.
Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, now what? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
I know,
I know, I know.
Yes, and this is really what I teach my clients to speak and I call it our yes list activation because people that are opting in have gone from cold and now they're in our system now. They've raised their hand. They've already shown us who it is that they are. Our job next is to actually start connecting and building a relationship before we ask them to buy because if we just go and say, hey, do you to buy my thing? They're like, whoa, wait a minute.
Laura Kendrick (13:22)
Hmm.
Christine Williams (13:29)
I don't even know if I like you yet. Like I am just like, I'm kind of watching, you know, they need some time to vet you. And what we see is that, you know, in the market now, it really is taking about 11 hours of somebody being engaged with you in your content in some way, or form to actually move into that trusting experience where they feel safe, they feel trusting, and they actually want to have a conversation with you. Right. And yet people are, are, are either,
Laura Kendrick (13:36)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (13:57)
making premature marriage proposals or not actually connecting on a real level at all. So the first thing that we do is we start with what I like to call as our yes-less activation. And that is if we've got people coming into our ecosystem, and we should have some people coming into our ecosystem every day, even if it's one, we still need to be doing something to bring people that are seeing us and that are hearing us into our ecosystem.
Laura Kendrick (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (14:23)
My ecosystem is based on two things. One is my email list, but another is I like to call it my hub. It's a community of people so that regardless of whether I meet them in person or at an event that I'm attending or an event that I'm hosting or a talk that I'm doing, they get to come inside of a free cultivated community that is specific to my ideal client so that they have an opportunity to experience who I am. They can hear what it is that I'm doing. I personally love Facebook groups for that just because it's easy.
We know that people spend the majority of their time either on YouTube or Facebook and it's not really the same as like just using your personal profile to just you know post ten times a day. It's really we're bringing people who have already raised their hand into another room into an experience where they get to see you hear you and and ⁓ and we can actually connect with them right so when they come there whether they're you know coming in from a lead magnet where they get an opportunity to you know on all of my lead magnets I invite them like
hey connect with me over here in my Facebook group you know I've got you know resource lists in there I go live once a week you know with some trainings to kind of help you you know get these pieces connected well once they're there that gives me an opportunity to actually just reach out say hi I'm so glad you're here like literally it's just hey how are you I'm so glad you're here and they go on my yes list you know if they start engaging now we're in a conversation I like to think of it as like a game of catch right where they're like yay like I saw you on the
podcast or I saw you on Laura's summit or like amazing like it just opens that opportunity to connect but if we leave it there and we don't actually put them on like our yes list and we never reach back out to them again then we're basically ghosting them right so I make it a point of the new people that are coming into my life into into my ecosystem that they get a touch point twice a month just to say hi hi how are you what do you need is there anything that you need today
Like simple, like literally I just get to be a real human being and say.
I'm here for you. Let me know what it is that you need. I've got a resource list. I've got a vault. Maybe I pull my own podcast and I say, hey, this might help you. Right. And from there, I want to invite them into another room, which would be, you know, a nurture event or a conversion event where people actually then get to learn something specific. And that's where, you know, every quarter and I do a quarterly, I don't do it every six weeks. You know, I do a, a nurture event because I love to teach and it is something that lights me up.
So once a quarter the people that are in my Facebook group or on my email list will be invited to have this experience and I also keep notes on people who are showing up live because the people that are showing up live and are coming into my Facebook group those are people that are going now from cold to warm and that is what we need to do. We're not trying to get them to go from cold to buyer that doesn't work.
Laura Kendrick (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (17:17)
cold to warm. So it's cold to a warm relationship and then a warm relationship next into a buyer. So it's a matter of looking at who is coming into your ecosystem and what are you doing as the host. Like if I think about, know, I'm throwing this party, it's my job to go around and say, hey, would you like another drink? Can I take your coat? Right? Like it's my job to run that party and to connect with the people that are coming to my party. If I don't do that and I just expect them to
just like, hey, how can I work with you? That's not going to happen. So I like to think of these additional rooms, these conversion events, which I like to call nurture events, as, you know, throwing a party like, hey, come to my party and they can come to as many parties as they want without feeling obligated that if they don't buy right then and there, that, you know, they're not welcome in my world because the truth is we know that people are taking a longer time. They're more discerning. They want to be a part of your thing. They might want to, you know, come
to two or three experiences with you before they're like, okay, this is making sense to me now. I see that I need this. I like her energy. I like what she's talking about. I want to learn her method. want to learn her system. So it's then noticing who are the people on your list that you've reached out to and either just inviting them into a conversation to help them to create a win. And this is not like, let me give you a one hour discovery session. This is let's hop on a quick call where we can
chat about what piece you might be missing and let me help you create a win in like 15 or 20 minutes. We don't even make a pitch on that either. Like it's not like a sales call. It's a connection call so that I can help them to create a win. So that again, they can be like, my gosh, okay, like, wow, I wasn't pitched on that. Now they're feeling safe again. And they're like, just deciding is this person that I want to work with? So that then when I come back around and I'm like, hey, Chris.
Laura Kendrick (18:50)
Yeah.
Christine Williams (19:12)
You know, we're opening up enrollment for this, you know, program. Would you like to explore whether this would be a good fit for you or not? There's already a relationship there. It's not a cold DM. It's not a pitch. It's not like, hey, let me overcome all your objections on this one hour discovery call. It's is this something that you feel might serve you? And if yes, let's hop on a call. And if not, no big deal. You just get to stay in my world for longer.
Laura Kendrick (19:21)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (19:35)
until you either decide that this isn't for you, which is totally fine, or you decide that it is for you. And so I look at it as kind of like, I call it my core four. You know, the first step is what are we doing to bring somebody new in? Once they're there, it's our job to nurture. And typically my nurture looks like a one to many, right? So my conversion event or my Facebook group or my email, right? That's one to many. That's delivering value in a one to many container. But from there, I have to take them into that next one to one, which is that connection.
and that could be as simple as hey how did you like that freebie and if they're like I you know what I never looked at it no problem I get it would you like to hop on a quick call and I'll walk you through it is there something specific that you're struggling with could I you know share another resource with you right so it's those pieces people are not doing those and if you were to do that on a daily basis you would be further along in your business than 99.9 percent
Laura Kendrick (20:06)
Mm-hmm.
No, they're not.
Christine Williams (20:31)
of the coaches or service-based entrepreneurs in the world today because people are not getting that level of connection and trust building before they're asked to purchase.
Laura Kendrick (20:41)
What are your, what are your conversion events look like? Like your parties, so to speak? What are, how are you structuring those?
Christine Williams (20:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I do every quarter I do larger ones. So those are like multi-day events. So what I have found is a sweet spot for me is somewhere between three to five days. So typically I'll do like a three day event where I'll actually teach my system, right? So the soulful abundance system, which is what the book was written about is something that I've been teaching my clients since 2018. So I will teach the system over the course of a couple days and then invite them to either hop on a call with me if they want support and
implementing
it or maybe there's something else that might be a better fit for them if they are not ready to, you know, implement the entire system. Maybe they want to just implement a piece of the system. So that's where, you know, we take a look at, you know, where, how can I meet them where they are, right, with my offer suite, right? So that's important. I really want to meet them where are.
Laura Kendrick (21:38)
My next question is always, always, because we can hear this. And I've heard many variations of this kind of system, if you will, where people are folding in. And I think it's so wise now, because the email is not as effective anymore, because as my friend Michelle Mazur says, we are not in a trust recession. We are in a trust depression. And that is well documented. Yeah, we don't trust anyone who's not exactly like us.
Christine Williams (21:44)
you
Zero trust. Yep. Yep. Kelly Roach has been talking about this for years.
Yep. Absolutely.
Laura Kendrick (22:06)
Yeah, it's,
yeah, the numbers are unbelievably low. when, my question is always, because like, I do see this as amazing and it could be workable against, in so many different business models. But for you in particular, what is your offer suite look like? Like, where is this like trajectory headed? Because for me, like everything has to be strategically placed. Like the people are gonna hear this and go, my gosh, Christine, amazing. And I love that.
Christine Williams (22:24)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (22:34)
But also I'm a firm believer you can't just copy and paste someone else's strategy like right on your business. It has to fit appropriately. So in this model for you, where is that, like what offers is this kind of thing leading to?
Christine Williams (22:38)
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, thanks. That's such a good question and it is important to take a look at that. So one of the things that we know in the market that's happening today is that 92%, this is pretty high, 92 % of your high ticket buyers are not coming as cold leads.
They're not just coming in. They're also might not be coming to one just one event either. They might be in your world for a period of time, but the way that they become a high ticket client is by these connections and these conversations or from a referral where there is that trust there. That's 92%. That's huge. So when I do a larger event like a three day or a five day experience, typically that will open to my higher ticket experience. It will open to my flagship offer into my high ticket offer.
but I also like to meet people where they are. So I've got a high ticket, I've got a mid ticket, I've got a low ticket offer as well so that people can actually step in at the level of support that they feel that they most need right now. And so sometimes we've got people that are like, yep I've been in your world for multiple times now, this is like the third event I've been at with yours, I'm all in, I'm going.
Laura Kendrick (23:36)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (23:52)
absolutely going to join me in the high ticket. Sometimes they join my lower ticket, which is called the success studio. It's a monthly membership where we focus specifically on lead generation and how to implement this, you know, yes, less activation in order to make sales. So it's very, very specific. I don't teach how to do conversion events. I don't teach, you know, your foundations of creating a signature system. I don't, you know, I don't teach any of that in there. Like that's it's very specific to what we're talking about today.
It's $97 a month. We do live business trainings once a month. We do live Q &A once a month. We do live co-working sessions once a month. And we do live networking sessions because I'm a big proponent that when we leverage other people's audiences and we connect and collaborate with each other, we just get to go there faster with each other. So the other thing that we're seeing is that when people are coming into this lower ticket offer,
Laura Kendrick (24:35)
Mm-hmm.
Christine Williams (24:41)
They are then also part of what we like to call as our inner buyers list, but they also need to be nurtured as well. Like we don't forget about them once they become a client, right? So they are also on my yes list activation as current clients that also get touches and get reached out multiple times a month just to say, Hey, how are you? Like, is there anything that you need? Do you need help finding something that's in the program? Like, tell me what's going on for you, right? So it's not, it's not a one-on-one container, but when we reach out to people
that are already in our program those are where people are then also moving into my high ticket program. So they're building trust and connection and even though the offer might be to a higher ticket program we do offer something that is a smaller bite call it a bite-size offer some people call it their trust offer some people call it their lower ticket offer I've been calling it my bite-size offer since I started teaching this in 2018 because it really is like okay if you just want to nibble and you want to focus here great let's do that.
and ⁓ and and you know the percentage of people that then convert into the higher ticket program is absolutely amazing because now they have an experience of you you've helped them to create a win they're even more trusting and so we're creating a circular ⁓ system of our offers versus than just an ascension model a lot of people are just teaching an ascension like they start low they go mid they go high well I actually teach a circular system.
where people can, of course they can start low if they want and then move into my higher ticket. But I've got a lot of people that go through my higher ticket, might stay with me for a couple of years and they want to then come into the membership because they still want my brain and my heart and my eyes on their business with them. Great. So we are keeping 60 % of our people as our income stream versus being in constant new client acquisition, which is where a lot of people are getting tripped up going after the new lead, new lead, new lead. How do I get new clients, new clients, new clients?
Laura Kendrick (26:30)
Yeah.
Christine Williams (26:36)
but they are not nurturing the new people and they're also not nurturing the people that are already in our buyers list which could then create this beautiful circular ecosystem that gives you consistent income and stable months.
Laura Kendrick (26:53)
That's so true. Because yeah, most people are talking about the laddering of things and the, yeah, this Ascension model. So yeah, I love all the things you're talking about because yeah, that is what burns us out is constantly living at the top and bottom of the funnel without actually building the relationships inside is what so many of us sit back and are like, God, I hate my business. Like, and I feel so distanced from it. And like, I'm, it feels like whiplash that I'm out here doing social media, like,
Christine Williams (26:59)
Yeah.
Ugh. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (27:22)
look at me, I'm dancing and talking about the things, pay attention and then asking for sales that feel icky and then I'm barely have time to work with my clients. It's like, whoa, whoa. So I love this.
Christine Williams (27:24)
Yeah. ⁓ yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's I'm so glad we're talking about this because it's really and let me just, you know, I want to just bring it into a practical example because I just had a client with one of my or call with one of my clients before we hopped on today and she's having a low month. You know, we all have low months. Sometimes we've got great months. Sometimes we've got lower months and instead of saying, OK, how are you going to get a new client? You know, like what are we going to do to like, you know, get more leads and, you know, close it, you know, close those, you cold leads and turn them into buyers. I said, let's take a
Laura Kendrick (27:39)
Yeah, please.
Christine Williams (28:01)
look at what where are your current clients struggling right now? Is there something that we could create for them that would be really really helpful that would give them like this 30-day container where you could help them accelerate where it is that they are in any of your your your other experiences and as we started talking about it she was like you know what this is where they always get stuck and I'm like amazing let's take that let's turn it into a 30-day container it's gonna be like $4.97
Laura Kendrick (28:17)
love that.
Christine Williams (28:28)
great like that's for that 30 day container. And she can not only invite people that are in her membership because she's got a membership as well, but she can invite people that are current clients in her certification program and her high ticket offer, but also open it up to new people as well. So there's this 490. I mean, she could get 10 clients in the next week and have a $5,000 income stream, right? Like piece of cake, right? Nobody thinks about it that way. People are always like, my gosh. And this isn't about like, I have to build out another offer.
Laura Kendrick (28:47)
I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah, lovely. Yeah. Right.
Christine Williams (28:58)
This is about looking at where can you help the clients that are currently in your ecosystem get even better results, right? In a way that is also going to feed, know, take your membership people to another level or take your current clients that are in your high ticket into another level faster. And then, you know, she can run it and see how she likes it. If she likes it.
Laura Kendrick (29:04)
Yes.
Christine Williams (29:20)
then she can use it again. If not, she can put it on a shelf and decide, didn't like that. But either way, it is a way that you can actually continue to serve the people that are already in your ecosystem. Focus on that 60 % of the people in your world that love you already, that want to work with you and give them a reason to actually stay. Because a lot of times we're not inviting people into something that's going to help them accelerate and they go work for some with somebody else for that. Right. And then they get all confused and they're like, my God, I'm listening to you.
listening to so-and-so and I'm all messed up and I'm not sure what I should be focusing on. Well if we can serve the people that are in our ecosystem and give them those experiences, now you've got you know a cash infusion coming in whenever you need it.
Laura Kendrick (30:03)
Yeah, it's amazing. And you're learning something and ⁓ that's all about hospitality is to like serve the people and listen to what they need. So that's amazing. That's such good advice. I appreciate it so much.
Christine Williams (30:10)
Yes! Yeah!
And she's so excited about it too. Like it's not like, my God, I'm having a slow month. How am I going to pay my bills? I got to close the deal. She's like, my God, this is such a great idea. I'm so excited about it. This is going to be so fun. So notice that when the energy changes, you also are going to be more magnetic because you're excited about this. And you know, I talk about energy trumping strategy all day long. I can tell you a strategy to implement all day long, but if it's not exciting you, if it's not something that you are wanting to put out there, if it's not something that you are really
Laura Kendrick (30:15)
that.
Right.
Christine Williams (30:44)
you know behind and your energy is is magnetic with it's not going to work.
Laura Kendrick (30:48)
Yeah, and by the way, it's like the typical advice is to flash sale something that waters it down and feels urgent and like icky. And this feels magnetic and positive and moving in a forward direction, which is amazing. Well, Christine, we could talk all day. I have a feeling. So it is. It is so fun.
Christine Williams (30:54)
Alright.
Yeah, absolutely.
Isn't it fun though? Like honestly this is
like you know these are four things right? Attract new people, nurture them in a one-to-many, connect with them in a one-to-one and then you know we didn't get to this piece yet because this is another piece that people forget. Invite people to work with you, invite people to the darn party if you don't invite them to explore taking the next step with you and I really like that language it's not like hey do you want to buy my thing, hey do you want to buy my program it's like hey
Laura Kendrick (31:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah,
it's an invitation.
Christine Williams (31:34)
What
are you interested in exploring having support around this? Are you interested in exploring whether this might be a good fit for you? Like those invitations, you know, I challenge my people to just make one invitation a day. I mean, you make one invitation like that. We're not talking about making 100 cold DMS. We're talking about look who you're having connections and conversations with right now. Make one invitation a day. You will exponentially increase your business revenue just by focusing on those these things that I shared with you today.
Laura Kendrick (31:37)
Yeah.
I love it.
Amazing. Well, Christine, where can people find you on the big wide world of the internet?
Christine Williams (32:11)
Aw, thank you. Yeah, so my website is Shine Abundance now, so you are more than welcome to, you know, go check me out there if you want. But come into my Facebook group because that really is where I love to bring people in because I do love to connect with you. You will get me if my VA sends you a message, she will let you know it's her. She'll be like, hey, it's Jenny. know, Chris just wanted to make sure you knew about this thing. You know, I don't do bots inside there. And it's called the Holistic Business Success Facebook group. So Holistic Business
success. We'll definitely share a link with people here and I'd love to just gift everybody you know my Core Four. So I've got a beautiful you know freebie for you guys that actually walk you through the Core Four that we mentioned today with some specific actions that you can take you know practical so it's not just this high-level theory it's actually going to kind of guide you through that and I'm you know just come say hello I will absolutely respond I'm I'm not behind a paywall like just say hello.
Laura Kendrick (32:48)
Amazing.
Christine Williams (33:10)
video.
Laura Kendrick (33:11)
I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing these thoughts. They're so good. You've got the wheels turning in my brain, so I'm excited.
Christine Williams (33:13)
Yeah.
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Onboard Like a Five-Star Hotel.
The Member Experience That Keeps People Paying (and Talking)
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Elle Drouin is the Founder of Styled Stock Society, a visual content membership for women-led brands. As a membership strategist, she helps online business owners design sustainable memberships built for the long term — creating steady, predictable recurring revenue they can rely on.
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Olivia, the Onboarding Concierge
Olivia, the Onboarding Concierge, is a custom-built AI assistant designed to help membership owners improve their onboarding. Trained by a membership strategist, Olivia can audit your current onboarding process, write optimized welcome sequences, create start-here guides, and build membership roadmaps to improve retention and recurring revenue.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Elle, welcome in. I am so excited that you are here.
Elle Drouin (00:11)
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat today.
Laura Kendrick (00:15)
my gosh, it's gonna be so fun. Let's start with you sharing just a little bit about who you are so the people who don't know who you are can learn who you are.
Elle Drouin (00:24)
Yeah, so I'm Elle Druin. I am the founder of Stout Stock Society, which is a visual content membership with stock photos, videos, canvas templates, basically any sort of visual marketing resource to help women entrepreneurs market their businesses online. And I'm also a membership strategist. So I've run from my membership for a decade now, and I have...
over the past few years, kind of taken everything that I've learned and started consulting with other membership owners, helping them grow their own memberships too.
Laura Kendrick (00:57)
Amazing. I love it. And so many of us think about membership as a way to be able to scale and serve and be in the places. So this is going to be such a good conversation. And I love that the way that you kind of positioned this conversation
Was around why member experience matters for the membership growth, which to me set off all these light bulbs about yes, because that is this kind of sneaky version of marketing that most people don't think of as marketing, but it is.
Elle Drouin (01:29)
Yeah, for sure, absolutely. One of the things that I have realized over the past decade is that the more members that you can keep happy, keep them around, keep paying you, like the less external marketing you have to do, and then the faster your business actually grows because like having that revenue, especially when it's recurring, stack, makes so much of a difference and how you treat your members really influences what that
Laura Kendrick (01:42)
Yeah. for sure.
Elle Drouin (01:58)
like.
Laura Kendrick (01:59)
Yeah, the churn is real and people who aren't in membership spaces yet, I think often don't think about it. They think about like, I'm just gonna grow this number and then it's gonna stay there. But then once you're in it and you're like, ⁓ shit, like there's these scales that play where there's people constantly leaving and people constantly coming in and it becomes like, how do you make it so the people leaving are as less than the people coming in?
Elle Drouin (02:24)
Exactly.
Laura Kendrick (02:25)
But I think there is that element of that is also a bit of your marketing because the people who are in will speak so highly and refer to you when they're talking to their friends and their people and all the things. And it does become this way of having other people market the business for you, which is amazing.
Elle Drouin (02:45)
Exactly. I feel like when I was first thinking about this, I actually took it from like a pure hospitality perspective because when I started my membership, I also had an Instagram famous dog. so my dog, she's pretty popular on the internet. We did a bunch of different brand collaborations with like...
Laura Kendrick (02:54)
Mm.
I love that.
Elle Drouin (03:11)
American Express and Google, and we had a partnership with Ritz-Carlton. So for a while, we were traveling to different Ritz-Carlton hotel properties and showcasing how dog friendly they were. That was like the goal of the campaign. And the way that you get treated when you are a VIP dog at a Ritz-Carlton is it is special.
Laura Kendrick (03:13)
my god.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Elle Drouin (03:37)
And I was like, this is the way that we should be treating people in our memberships because like I have only good things to say about this experience. We are arriving, people are, you know, they know your name, they know your preferences, you're getting a tour. It's not just like, hey, welcome to the hotel, here's your key card. Exactly. And I was like, this is the type of experience that I wanna create within my membership. And I feel like it makes so much sense in terms of.
Laura Kendrick (03:55)
Elevators to the left, yep.
Elle Drouin (04:05)
retention and like you said also having people talk about you and your experience and then refer other people.
Laura Kendrick (04:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's funny because as you said that, are a ton of like memories came up for me of the places like the hotels that we stayed in, Ritz-Carlton and like the experiences of the difference between flying first class and not. And just the way you're treated makes it so that it's totally worth it because you're just you feel held in the container, which is.
Amazing and I love that you are flipping that into this digital membership space because so often They're like especially the the big like kind of foundational memberships that we think about sometimes of like these the people who hold the membership there's such distance between and you you just kind of feel like you're solo in this container where there's it's almost like the words are failing me at the moment, but it it's almost as like
If you're being treated of the privilege of getting the information inside at times in some of these, like in some of these huge ones, that there is no connection. There is no being held in that space. So I love that you're flipping this on its script, because that's so true. You stay in the places. You are a repeat customer to the places where you really feel that hospitality and that, oh, they know me a bit. I am so curious how you are folding this into the digital membership space.
Elle Drouin (05:31)
Yeah, so I think it all starts with onboarding that experience when someone joins your membership. And honestly, not just memberships, but if you have like a course or a program, anything that you have that onboarding experience, that is so important to setting the tone for what happens next. So, you know, like you said, you don't want to just be handed a key card and said like.
Laura Kendrick (05:34)
Yeah.
Elle Drouin (05:55)
go find your room. It's that guided experience of like, do you want me to show you around? Like, welcome, first of all, here's your glass of champagne, happy that you're here. But also, know, showing people exactly like what they need to know, where they need to go, what's important for their onboarding experience in terms of what they need to know about your membership, what they should be doing, and really.
Laura Kendrick (06:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Elle Drouin (06:20)
personalizing that welcome as much as possible. So one of the things that I think is really important in a membership specifically is having like a member roadmap, something that makes it feel like, you know, it's not a maze of a hotel. You have like a very clear path for where to start and then what to do next.
Laura Kendrick (06:37)
Yes.
Yes, I actually just had this conversation with a client of mine who has a membership, because I'm actually a member in the membership. that was one of the things I noticed. I'm like, ooh, the onboarding, you just kind of get access. And then you're just like, OK, what do I do? And it's like, how do I use these amazing gifts that are inside to get to where I want to go? So I could not agree more. I also think that the offboarding is really key, too, because if you offboard well,
Elle Drouin (06:46)
haha
Laura Kendrick (07:08)
That means that, first of all, people might choose not to leave if you're kind of giving them a process out. But also, they're going to likely come back. If the need arises again, you're top of mind of, ⁓ yeah. This is like, I should go back to Elle. I should go back to Laura. Yeah, I suddenly need more photos. Yeah, OK, let's do this. And I feel like that. it also, honestly, it gives an opportunity, first of all, for information. It gives an.
opportunity for them to kind of take something with them. I'm remembering a membership I was in for a long, long time and I loved it. And she kind of pivoted her audience and I no longer fit that audience. And I was like, and so it took me a long time to leave because I liked it, but I was like, this is wrong fit. But when you left, she actually gave you a gift of a course that she had that was like, this is amazing. So she still...
on my mind and I've never unsubscribed and I do still, if I come across somebody who is that right fit, I do still suggest her. I'm like, you should go check her out, which I think that's a gift that good offboarding can give you too.
Elle Drouin (08:19)
Yeah, absolutely. think the onboarding and offboarding and then everything that happens in between also.
Laura Kendrick (08:24)
It's all of it!
Elle Drouin (08:27)
It is, ⁓ but it's really creating that experience for your members that makes them feel seen, that makes them feel understood, and that is truly supportive in whatever journey you are taking them on. So even things like, you know, we think about a concierge at a hotel, like what is the level of service that you're giving just in support to your members? Like, do you just have like a, I don't know, like a...
Laura Kendrick (08:34)
Mm-hmm.
Elle Drouin (08:56)
support email or like do you have help documents? Do you have like video trainings? Do you have an AI assistant? Like what does that look like to actually help your members get the support that they need when they need it and not just like they fill out a form and maybe sometime someone gets back to them.
Laura Kendrick (09:17)
Yeah. God. Yeah.
Elle Drouin (09:19)
Ha ha.
Laura Kendrick (09:21)
I remember adding a support form to an early course that I developed and it really loved it and I forgot to ask the person's email in the course or in the form.
Elle Drouin (09:32)
No, no, no.
Laura Kendrick (09:32)
Whoops, like first one comes through and I'm like, well, I can't respond to that. Great. All good. But it's like, yeah, you got to think that through for sure. Don't be me. So how are you seeing memberships these days adding in those layer supports? Because I'm hearing conversations, right, of, you know, once upon a time it was like the more kind of live calls you could give, the more people were like, yes, I feel held.
But then there seems to be this kind of tick off where people aren't showing up to live calls. They also are in some memberships you're seeing where it's just where they feel like it's just one more call on their calendar. So they just don't want it. What are you seeing in this kind of creativity of being able to support people either through calls or not calls? Like, I guess, what are you just seeing in the membership world?
Elle Drouin (10:18)
Yeah, so I am a call hater. I will personally raise my hand and say, no calls, please. When I am in a membership or a program, like I just don't want more calls. That's where I want to spend my day doing. So I'm seeing a lot more asynchronous support, which I personally love, whether it is like office hours in Voxer or in Slack, someplace where
Laura Kendrick (10:22)
You're just gonna hang up right now.
Mm-hmm.
Elle Drouin (10:45)
you can have conversations and you can get support with whoever's leading the membership. But it may just be like, you know, during certain window of time on a particular day. So part of it is really, I think, in the benefit of the members because you aren't like forced to show up at 12 p.m. Eastern when you are in Pacific and it doesn't make sense for you. But the other part is just.
I think it also really helps with the back and forth that you can have. So I think sometimes when you have like an hour call and you're just trying to get through all the responses, like as fast as possible, you don't have the space to really think thoughtfully and really help people. I mean,
Laura Kendrick (11:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Elle Drouin (11:36)
Obviously depends on the membership and the types of questions you're getting, but that's one of the reasons that I love asynchronous support with people in my community. It's because they can send me a question or a thought and I have the space to actually think, okay, how do I want to respond to this? What's the best way? And a lot of times it's like, well, let me go record a video. Let me go pull up a resource for you. And that's not something that you can do when the call is live.
Laura Kendrick (12:02)
Yeah. And it also becomes a thing when it's a group call too, that with the exception of one human being who is actually is Dallas Travers. She is remarkable at this, but I have never seen anybody else be able to manage a group call in a way that makes people feel like the people who are listening give a damn. It's almost like the people who are not in that like hot seat for lack of better way of saying it.
are just sitting there, biding their time, waiting for like, when can I get in? Like, otherwise I'm kind of zoned out. And that's hard. I've also seen some of the bigger membership switch to like, almost like webinar style, where you don't actually get the back and forth with them. And that, like, I get it. It's about capacity and...
Amazing. Like that's an amazing problem to have of like you have thousands of questions and you're like, great. Like, that's fantastic. However, it also makes it so that the people on the other end don't feel connected or if their question is answered, you might have kind of hit the wrong angle on it. And so they don't feel like the question was answered. Like there's just not that kind of two way street that at least I personally, if I'm asking a question, would really love to have the back and forth. Like that's how I personally.
And I know some people aren't this way, but some people are, where they kind of learn and things come out in that back and forth. So I love this idea of the asynchronous kind of support. I've also heard some people really like the asynchronous because they get more direct and timely responses to their questions rather than having to wait for that once a month call, which is sometimes not the best.
Elle Drouin (13:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's either you moved on, you forgot, or you feel like you're in a holding pattern because you can't figure something out and then you have to wait two weeks or whatever.
Laura Kendrick (13:47)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. Are you seeing any really cool shifts that are happening these days in memberships that are really adding to this hospitality movement, this really held container?
Elle Drouin (14:08)
So what I think is interesting, I feel like the shift is across kind of all online businesses. But we kind of got to talk about AI because love it or hate it, it's here. People are using it. Some people are using it well. Some people maybe not so well. But it is a tool that can help.
Laura Kendrick (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Elle Drouin (14:33)
in memberships, whether it is, you know, helping someone work through the content of your membership, if it is well-trained, if it is something that is actually created, not just as a, like a simple help AI where you're like, you know, I hate the ones where you actually have problem and then it just gives you like the same generic response over and over again and.
It's so painful because you're like, just want to talk to a person, honestly.
Laura Kendrick (14:58)
Yes.
Yes, I find
those ones are often in like sass products where you're just like, I'm just can you just fix this?
Elle Drouin (15:04)
Yes.
But if it's something that's created more, like based on a framework to help your members like through whatever education you're giving them or whatever transformation you're giving them, I think that these tools can be extremely helpful because they almost act as like a robot you ⁓ and can give them that feedback or help them like work through things in real time as they're going through whatever curriculum you have.
Laura Kendrick (15:27)
Yeah.
Elle Drouin (15:37)
In a lot of different ways, think AI tools and assistance can be super helpful for people in memberships and really give people honestly, like more personalized support than you can because you are one person and like, you just can't be available all the time.
Laura Kendrick (15:54)
Yeah. Do you ever find, and this is me playing devil's advocate just for a second, just because it's AI and why not? Because that's how people are thinking these days about it. But do you find that the AI ever creates a little bit more distance? Like where people don't, I don't know, either stop kind of showing up to the support or kind of get that vibe of the kind of SaaS product useless and then they're.
Elle Drouin (15:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (16:19)
they just kind of pull away or I guess it's, do you ever see a negative to the AI is the question I'm after.
Elle Drouin (16:25)
Sure, especially if it's not created well, if it's not intentionally built out in a way that's truly supportive, or if it becomes the only way that people can really get in touch with you. think AI as a tool and as one form of support can be helpful, but if it's like, no, you can't ever speak to me, you only speak to robots, that's when there's a true disconnect.
Laura Kendrick (16:28)
Mm.
the only.
Yeah, that's a really good point. And one I really appreciate, because it is that the harping on AI is a tool. It's a damn useful tool at times, but it is not the whole kit and caboodle. And when it's fully leaned into, those big nuanced elements are removed. So yeah, I really appreciate that kind of differentiation there, for sure. Are there any other major shifts or kind of
really creative things that like trends you're seeing inside of memberships that are adding to this held container. Cause I feel like memberships or like group coaching containers that kind of resemble memberships in some ways with the high touch. I feel like they have shifted a ton in the last couple of years and some people are keeping up and some people aren't, but they've become something that for a while it was kind of an easy entry point, especially around COVID. It was this like,
OK, I can serve a lot of people in this way. And people were just kind of gobbling it up. And now it's become a little bit of a point of contention where it's harder for people to kind of figure out how to meet people in the right way, if that makes sense.
Elle Drouin (18:04)
Yeah, and I'm not sure if this is exactly what you were thinking about, but one thing that I've seen more recently in memberships is, like you're saying, a lot of memberships are kind of, they're all one to many, but the idea of getting access, not just to stuff, but to a person, ⁓ sort of.
Laura Kendrick (18:24)
Mm-hmm.
Elle Drouin (18:27)
went away for a while. was like the, can I serve as many people as possible without like me being present? And I think we've seen sort of a shift towards people really wanting more of that personal connection, people wanting access to a person. And so not necessarily at every tier of your membership necessarily, but ⁓ think of it as like the VIP lounge or like a place where you can connect with your most engaged members.
⁓ whether it's in like a different tier of membership or like a specific container within the membership, something where it could be even like you're rewarding like loyalty or like engagement within the community. But it's just like another way to make members feel seen and also like special. I mean, it's just when it comes down to like,
Not everyone needs the same level of support, but there are people who are going to want more handholding or they're going to want more access to you and having space for that for the right people can make a lot of sense.
Laura Kendrick (19:37)
I love that. I love that. And yeah, you're right. Honestly, there were a number of kind of offers out in the world that were making me think about like these people are building walls. Like they're just, it is that one too many and I get it. It's you can't be present for everybody, but it really started to feel like the automation and the like just all the systems that were put into place just felt like, you know.
unbelievable distance where, I, it like, I'm lacking the word at the moment, but it was almost like you're standing on the opposite side of, you know, this huge cavernous hole and you can't get across it. And it's just like, okay, cool.
Elle Drouin (20:19)
Yeah, and that happens. As your membership grows, you start to think about, how am I scaling this? How am I automating this? What system is I gonna have in place? It happened to me too, and I realized that I'm getting further and further away from the people inside my membership. And one of the things that I actually did a few years ago as I sat down, I was like, I need to just talk to more people who are in the membership.
Laura Kendrick (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Elle Drouin (20:45)
And so I started scheduling one-on-one calls and was just like, hey, tell me about your business. Like, isn't a sales pitch. This isn't like anything other than to get to know the people who are actually in the membership and like make sure that we're still helping you.
Laura Kendrick (20:50)
Yeah.
amazing.
Yeah, because when you build those walls, there is information loss. You kind of lose touch with the people. then I think also selfishly, you individually distance yourself from it. And I think at some point, it becomes easy to kind of just be like, meh, who cares? You know what I mean? You're less bought in because there's so much distance between you and the actual human beings at the other end of this.
Elle Drouin (21:23)
For sure. It really is something that you have to think about, like both from, you know, like your customer standpoint, but also like you are building a business and like you are leading this. And what do you want that to actually look like? What's the experience you want to give people? And is it something that you can be proud of and that other people are going to like want to recommend to other people too?
Laura Kendrick (21:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, totally. Amazing. Like now I've got all the gears turning in my head. So like checking out of this conversation as I'm like thinking about my future.
Elle Drouin (21:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (22:00)
Thank you so much, for bringing this here, because this is a different facet of marketing. And it really does all come into play, hence the holistic marketing summit. And I just love that you're thinking in this way. And it does matter. It really matters. And it's just amazing. So thank you.
Elle Drouin (22:20)
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Laura Kendrick (22:22)
Okay, before we go, you gotta share how can people find you.
Elle Drouin (22:27)
Yeah, so you can find me anywhere on the internet at LDruin. That's E-L-L-E-D-R-O-U-I-N. Does not sound like it's spelled. My website is LDruin.com and my membership is Stoud Stock Society.
Laura Kendrick (22:42)
Amazing, amazing. We're all gonna go hop in there. So yeah, it can be held and onboarded really well and it's just gonna be fantastic. So thank you so much for being here.
Elle Drouin (22:51)
Yeah, thanks again for having me.
Stop Optimizing for the Sale, Start Optimizing for the Stay.
A Copywriter's Take on Values-Aligned Messaging
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Megan Kachigan is a Copywriter with a marketing brain, trusted by your favorite 7-figure brands. She helps purpose-driven businesses write sales pages, email marketing, SEO blogs, and websites..so your clients feel seen, not sold to. Megan is also the founder of Copy Clarity Club where solopreneurs get out of their head and write highly converting copy, faster.
A Stanford University teaching award winner with a Master’s in Education, Megan knows how to turn attention into action. She’s written ads for $250k launches, helped generate over $5 million in revenue, and worked with Two Comma Club Award winners.
Host of the Values-First Marketing podcast and has been featured in Copy Confidence Society, Megan blends strategy, buyer psychology, and industry insight to craft aligned, high-converting messaging. -
"Why Isn't This Converting?" Free 5-Day Challenge
If you’re tired of writing copy and constantly tweaking it, this free challenge, “Why Isn’t This Converting?” shows you what to fix so that your best-fit clients cannot wait to work with YOU. For 5 days, you’ll get high-impact prompts in your inbox that can be done in just minutes. -
Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Megan, welcome. I am so pumped that you are here to talk to the people because, ooh, this is going to be good conversation.
Megan Kachigan (00:15)
It's be so good, I guess.
Laura Kendrick (00:18)
All right, so let's start with, any of the people who do not know who you are, share a little bit about who you are.
Megan Kachigan (00:26)
Yes, so my name is Megan Katchigan. ⁓
I say copywriter with a marketing brain because I think about the full customer journey before I dive in to write your specific pieces of copy. it's like strategy and implementation blended together. ⁓ So I see so often so many people come with like have at least like really great strategy, but then they can never actually implement it. So it doesn't matter how great the strategy is or they're like implementing like crazy throwing spaghetti on the wall without any real strategy guiding.
and then they burn out and so we're really bringing the two together to write those SEO, GEO blogs, the email marketing, the sales pages, finally updating your website so it really reflects where you're at now. All of those things ⁓ with that bigger mindset and focusing on the buyer psychology and bringing in the industry expertise and all of those things as well. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (01:23)
All the things, yeah.
And yes, as I always say, copy without strategy is not worth a damn. yeah, it just kind of makes a mess of things. So yes, I love that. I love that so very much.
So let's talk. I'm so excited to hear you talk about all the things, because you came at this from a really interesting conversation where you're talking about messaging that builds not only the audience, the sales, the things, but also builds retention.
So talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that because I'm just like, mean, yes, I'm all, I'm here for it. I'm just here for it.
Megan Kachigan (02:05)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think lots of people at this point can write copy that converts. I think as copywriters, that's a thing that we hear often. I'm a conversion copywriter. I write copy that converts. And like, yeah, obviously we want our copy to convert.
Laura Kendrick (02:20)
Can we like, can we
like, I don't even know what a copy that doesn't convert is.
Megan Kachigan (02:26)
Then it's not copy. Yeah. Yes. So I think conversion is not necessarily the most valuable metric anymore. I think a couple years ago, back in like the 2020 days,
Laura Kendrick (02:29)
I know, I know. Like what? Okay, anyways.
Megan Kachigan (02:44)
It was like the thing, you know? But I think now what I'm really looking at is the actual most valuable metric is someone still your client or customer like two years later. And so...
Laura Kendrick (02:56)
Mm-hmm.
Megan Kachigan (02:59)
I think most marketing conversations revolve around conversion rates and launch numbers and those aren't bad things. Like yes, we should absolutely have a pulse on that. But I think the healthier metric that you actually want to be focusing on is the LTV, the lifetime value, because if someone buys once and then leaves, something in that copywriting or marketing experience was misaligned.
Laura Kendrick (03:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Kachigan (03:22)
And we're
all over the bro marketing for like fast sales, quick cash injection kind of a thing.
Laura Kendrick (03:28)
Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Kachigan (03:31)
like maybe, but it's gonna hurt your reputation and it's gonna hurt you long term. And I'm in it for the long game and my clients are in it for the long game. And so we need to write, copy and build marketing that is really going to prioritize and optimize for those long term relationships. Like seven out of eight of my clients stay with me for over a year. And so is your messaging attracting people who are going
to stay.
Laura Kendrick (04:03)
Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that, because that's a curious thing, especially for a copywriter. Because, I mean, we do create long-term relationships in some of our packaging. But a lot of copywriters don't. And not that this is just for copywriters, but that goes for a lot of service providers. A lot of, well, coaches do long-term. But there are a lot of people who set up these, like, intensives or small things or for, like, copywriters, it's projects. So how do you...
Why do you think the people stay with you in particular so long? Like what are you building into your own world that's fostering that deep relationship?
Megan Kachigan (04:41)
Ultimately, what retention comes down to that I've found with my own marketing and with being behind the scenes of these multi six and seven figure brands is that the messaging needs to reflect your values so clearly that the right people recognize themselves in it. Like at its core,
Values first marketing is the alignment between your values, your message, and your client experience. And when that alignment exists, marketing becomes so much more seamless, sales become smoother, and clients are naturally going to stay longer because at that fundamental level, your values, that foundation, you guys agree. And that is also what is going to repel the clients that are like, ugh, a headache.
It's likely because your values are mismatched somewhere.
Laura Kendrick (05:32)
Hmm. Hmm.
And then there's the pain in the ass client who just like, yeah.
Megan Kachigan (05:37)
Hehehehehe
Laura Kendrick (05:41)
So, So I like, I mean, there's a huge part of me that's like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, duh. Like, of course, like this is like, preach into the choir here, friend. And I totally, I'm right sitting alongside you, like, let's ride, let's do this. ⁓ So how do you kind of put that together with clients? Like, how do you like really make that messaging out, put it out into the world so that the people are feeling that?
And when they're walking through the door, they're feeling that alignment, they're feeling that connection that is fostering that long term. Like, what is the kind of methodology you have going on there?
Megan Kachigan (06:19)
Yeah, so a couple of things. like, where do I even begin with all of this? ⁓ I would say that I think a lot of people have the misconception that my job is to reinvent or invent your messaging or reinvent your brand voice or how are you gonna get me just right?
Laura Kendrick (06:22)
I know.
Mm.
Megan Kachigan (06:41)
And I see the role more as like I'm translating what you already believe into language that other people can recognize. And so it's not about like reinventing the wheel or starting from scratch or like waiting for the muse or inspiration to strike. You know, it's really about focusing on the fundamentals.
Laura Kendrick (06:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Megan Kachigan (07:08)
Trends
are fun and everything, but you need to have the timeless truths down before you expand into trends or anything like that. so again, it comes back to values. Right, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (07:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
And the trends don't last. Like that's the thing, a
trend is a trend. So not to say it's not, it's bad or good. Like there's no value judgment on it, but if it's a trend, it's not gonna last. like, know, yeah. Right, right. So it's like fashion, you know, it just changes over time and the way people interact with it. But yeah, if you don't have those foundational pieces in place, and I think that's one of the things that is so missing when people think about copy. I find with my clients too that,
Megan Kachigan (07:31)
Yeah, by definition, there is no longevity there.
Laura Kendrick (07:49)
So often they expect it to be this magic bullet of like, you're just going to say something kitschy and fun. And people are just going to be like, my god, that's amazing. No, there's so much that goes behind it. And in reality, the kitschy and fun is charming for some brands. But that's not necessarily what is going to actually lead to that conversion, that relationship, all of the things. What is really behind it, no matter what, is what you're talking about.
Megan Kachigan (08:13)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (08:18)
foundational stuff, this clarity that is needed in order to connect with the people. And at the heart of it, like all of this, this whole conversation about, and like this whole summit is about building that connection and making the people at the other end of it feel seen and heard. And like, I feel like that's where, that's that magical piece that you're talking about that if we can create that connection.
and we can like kind of build that relationship, that's where the people stay. They don't, like I literally just got off a call with a client who was like, people buy from us and they run away. And I'm like, no, it doesn't have to be that way.
Megan Kachigan (08:57)
It's
not the way it's supposed to be! Yeah, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (09:00)
We can shift things. Yeah. And
doesn't that make it easier when you have these relationships where either people stay for a long time or they come back repeatedly or they send you people like.
Megan Kachigan (09:12)
all of those good things that make your marketing so much easier and you don't have to do as much of it or rely as heavily on the content marketing, the going to networking events or whatever else that you do is because it's really doing the hard work for you and if clients are staying, that's a lot easier to retain than to go out and get a new client. So why are we not focusing on that?
Laura Kendrick (09:23)
Mm-hmm.
For sure. And I think that's a really, really interesting point too, is that like where this whole idea of hospitality and marketing, that is an amazing gift that it can give you, is that if you build these relationships, you don't have to be churning and running like on your end, like of course members, like the whole membership thing, but you don't have to be like fighting that churn that naturally happens anyways so often.
I'm actually thinking of a friend of mine who has a SaaS business and they're like constantly like they're trying to grow. So in that realm, like they're in a growth stage, but I'm thinking about like how hard they're like really gunning towards this growth, this growth, this growth and having to get people in the door to get where they wanna be. But wouldn't that be amazing if they could get to this space where they don't have to be chasing all the time and growing all the time. They're like comfortable and.
Megan Kachigan (10:08)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (10:36)
How does that feel in all of our businesses to be like, That actually reminds me. So I had a moment a couple of weeks ago. And by the time this comes out, it'll be a couple of months ago, there was an article in the news about ⁓ the chip thing in Taiwan and the things that are happening around the world that are hard. And I had this stress moment of like.
Oh my God, how do we like bolster the business? So I went and sat down with ChatGBT, because like, why not? Like I'm having a stress moment. It's like the only person I can talk to right now at like midnight is ChatGBT. And I ended up getting so annoyed with it, because it was like trying to like, how can I make a business model that will do this? And its response was like, launch every six weeks with a six week program. Yeah, like the look, I wish people could see the look on your face right now. Right. Where I was like, wait, what? sounds like a little.
Megan Kachigan (11:06)
you
You
Laura Kendrick (11:25)
bang my head up against the wall. Like this is not a sustainable model. Shut up chat, GPT, go away.
Megan Kachigan (11:31)
Yeah, that's the point here is like marketing should like you as the founder should not be carrying the weight of the entire marketing department on your back like if you feel the need to constantly show up and to perform online to sell like that's exhausting. Yeah, yeah
Laura Kendrick (11:46)
That's a full-time job. Right. And that's why people
burn out in their marketing. That's why we have so much messaging right now around you don't have to have social media to market your business because that's what people are feeling. And I love that you're coming at this from a different angle. aren't they, you don't have to have social media is almost the, like that's not untrue for some businesses, but that's almost like putting the bandaid on the problem. And you're talking about like what's behind the problem. Like let's actually solve the problem.
Megan Kachigan (11:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (12:16)
rather than just say there's a different way. It's like, no, no, no. But if we set these other pieces in, isn't that fun? Yeah.
Megan Kachigan (12:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah getting at the deepest like most foundational part of like what is driving this?
Laura Kendrick (12:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
do you see this when you work with your clients? And I know what the answer is going to be, because I totally feel you. But do you see with your clients, does this apply for all different kinds of people, like service providers, different kinds of businesses with your clients?
Megan Kachigan (12:52)
Yeah, I would say it's pretty universal. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (12:53)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. That's so fun and interesting. Okay, so something that's coming to mind, because you sit with this in your own personal messaging and this is a guiding force for you. So this is how you work with your clients. This is what you push forward. Do you ever see any funny, unexpected, amazing gifts that come from like, we put this into place and yes, people stayed longer, but then, whoa, that just happened too, cool.
Megan Kachigan (13:22)
like kind of secondary benefits of...
Laura Kendrick (13:27)
wait, you said that way more concisely than me. Yeah, that's what I meant.
Megan Kachigan (13:30)
That's my
job as a copywriter, right? Like that's literally what I do. Well, I'm being your mirror now, so.
Laura Kendrick (13:34)
yeah, me too, and you still did it. So you win.
I love it.
Megan Kachigan (13:45)
Yeah, I think and I feel like the word of, you know, 2025 and even 2026 is like trust, trust, trust, right? And I think a lot of the messaging that is out there and a lot of the AI vomit type messaging is really slowing the trust.
down and decreasing the trust, but when you have values aligned messaging, that is going to increase your trust velocity. And again, people are talking about trust, but they're not talking about trust velocity. so by that I mean, trust velocity is how quickly does someone feel safe working with you.
Laura Kendrick (14:04)
Mm.
Yeah, that's a cool metric to think about. I was actually just having a conversation with one of my favorite, like, actually messaging and positioning nerd friends ⁓ just the other day. And we were talking about this and how it actually is, like, based on the Edelman report that came out this year, that it's actually not so much a... ⁓
Megan Kachigan (14:42)
Mm.
Laura Kendrick (14:46)
like an actual depression. Like this is ⁓ a really big thing that people just genuinely don't trust people who are not exactly like them.
Megan Kachigan (14:58)
Mmm.
Laura Kendrick (14:59)
And isn't that like an interesting disconnection? And there's interesting things to do with that. As ⁓ a planet and a species, that's terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. But when you come into marketing, if you think about that, then that actually drives towards what you're talking about, that if you can establish these values very clearly.
of who you are, then that makes it so that people see you as being similar to them and they're more willing to jump in and accelerate that trust as you were just talking about, which is a really fascinating use of that information. I love when the universe is like, hey, look, here's a conversation, here's a conversation, let's connect.
Megan Kachigan (15:44)
Yeah. like marketing is powerful. Like there is psychology behind it. Copywriting is powerful. And so we get to steward that in making people feel more understood, more heard, more ultimately loved into ⁓ the better version of themselves that they want to be.
Laura Kendrick (15:47)
Mm-hmm.
Good word.
Yeah.
That's a piece that the AI copy often misses on its own. Like you can definitely use AI as a tool to help facilitate your writing, especially you're soloing it and know, out of pocket copywriter might is not in everybody's budget, got it. But that is something to be aware of that AI does not build that naturally. Like you have to see it and draw it on through.
Megan Kachigan (16:16)
Absolutely.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a differentiator and like, I think so. No matter how good AI gets, like, I don't know. But like you said, like it's a fantastic tool.
but it's not going to necessarily get you all the way across the finish line. Like truly like 90 % of the clients that come to me say they've tried AI. They've even built a custom GPT or the equivalent in Claude, whatever you're using. And like it's still, it's spitting stuff out that like maybe sounds good enough, but it's not converting. Then it's like, so then what's the point? Like it's not getting increasing your bottom line.
Laura Kendrick (16:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Megan Kachigan (17:17)
And I think a lot of that is, I feel like it still thinks copywriting is about convincing people or it just still uses that urgency type of stuff. I think FOMO type fear-based urgency, I'm not a fan.
I'm not gonna do that. But I think inherent urgency, like generally, why do they need this and why do they need it now and not later? That's a great thing to put in your copy, that inherent urgency. But the FOMO fear-based countdown, like, let's leave that in 2020, you know?
Laura Kendrick (17:34)
No. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and it's interesting too, because when you build those, like when you're having that really thoughtful conversation through your marketing with your people, you actually, and like when you actually really thoughtfully put this messaging and positioning out there and the words are like really meeting them exactly where they are, you actually reduce a lot of those objections because...
The people feel it and they're like, this is right. This is what I need right now. This will actually solve this problem for me. This is the right person. This is the right, like all the things start to line up. And so that's kind of the thing that I love to like hear from clients, from friends, like all the things that we're like digging through is that when you set up the right marketing, the right messaging, the right copy, what happens is when you get on sales calls or when you throw out that, you know, checkout page to people.
There isn't the friction. The close rates are so simple. And it's not because it's manipulation. It's because you have called in the right people. You have walked them thoughtfully and intentionally down the path. And you've given them the ability to decide already whether or not this is the right thing at the right time for them. And then they just walk right through the door so easily because they're like, yes. And the people who it's not the right time for,
will sit back and go, I'm gonna wait right here. Still be in your space and then when it is the right time, I'm gonna click there. And you know, it just becomes all those little kind of things that make it just so like lovely to be actually selling rather than the like, buy here, buy now kind of crap that feels so icky.
Megan Kachigan (19:32)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, you want your sales to feel natural, like you were saying, like 100%. Like you want the people who are just like hungry for more, want all the things that you have to offer and like, got great results from this, I want more, I'm gonna buy the next, like everything you put out, like I want it because it's such high quality and it's getting them results.
Laura Kendrick (19:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right,
right. Yeah, yeah. So true. All right. Megan, thank you so much. This was like, this was such an interesting, like, it gave me, my brain started turning, which I love that. I love it. And I hope all the listeners had the brain turnage too.
Megan Kachigan (20:14)
Brain turnage, yes, that is what
we are here for.
Laura Kendrick (20:18)
All right, well, tell the people where they can find you, though we will definitely link to all the links, but where can folks find you out in the world?
Megan Kachigan (20:26)
Yes, you can ⁓ follow me ⁓ through my podcast, which is called Values First Marketing, just like we talked about today. So I would love for you to take a listen over there, or you can connect with me on socials at Megan Katchigan, Instagram, LinkedIn, wherever you're at.
Laura Kendrick (20:43)
Well, thank you so much for being a part of this.
Megan Kachigan (20:47)
Yes, I appreciate the conversation. Thank you.
Quiet Hospitality Marketing.
The Introvert's Playbook for Growing Without Shouting
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Tara Reid is a Business and Marketing Strategist who helps introverted entrepreneurs, course creators, coaches, and service providers build sustainable, quietly powerful businesses... without the burnout.
With over 18 years of experience as an online entrepreneur and multiple 6-figure businesses behind her, Tara brings deep expertise in organic marketing, evergreen strategies, SEO, and ethical sales funnels. Known for her calm, no-fluff approach, she supports clients in creating aligned offers and strategic systems that grow with them. No social media required. -
What’s Your Introvert Superpower Quiz
Learn what your strengths are as an introverted entrepreneur and the best ways to use those strengths to grow without hustle or burning out.
-
Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Welcome Tara. I actually think not to like, mean, this might sound like I'm playing favorites, but I'm actually really excited about this conversation. Like super excited. So thank you for being here.
Tara Reid (00:16)
you
And yeah, I'm so excited. Thank you for having me.
Laura Kendrick (00:24)
Amazing. Okay, so before we jump in, will you tell the people who don't know who you are and should know who you are just a little bit about you?
Tara Reid (00:34)
Yeah, so I'm Tara Reed. I've been in the online business space since 2007, so I'm definitely a dinosaur. and right now I'm a business and marketing strategist, primarily for other introverted entrepreneurs who are, you know, wanting to build a business that fits their life and their personality versus a business that's going to burn them out because I
You know, my first business was a handmade jewelry business. I experienced an eight month long period of burnout and eventually sold that business because I couldn't get my creativity back. So now I want to help other introverts avoid that and build businesses that are actually fun and they can show up as themselves.
Laura Kendrick (01:20)
I adore that because to be honest with you, people might not recognize it from the outside, but I am a deep introvert. And I don't mind getting, I'm a little different than some where I don't mind getting on stage and I love it. Like the energy is super fun, but I will need to nap for, I don't know, maybe a month afterwards. But I have to recover my energy. like, I do understand that of having to kind of.
Tara Reid (01:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (01:49)
navigate those things. And we don't work in a space, in the online space, that embraces that. Like there's a lot of shoulds and templatized, like you have to be visible, you have to be shouting as loud as you can from your personal soapbox and sharing all the things. And I love, love, love that you are coming at this from a totally different angle that I could not support.
Tara Reid (02:15)
Mm-hmm. I do think there's definitely more of a need for introvert voices to reach other introverts, because that's the thing. The extroverts are the loudest voices in the room, so that's what we hear. And I think there is so many other ways to run and market a business.
Laura Kendrick (02:32)
Yeah.
Well, and interestingly, too, like I have found myself in the past in extroverted folks' like programs, like coaching programs and things like that, or masterminds. And I find that those people tend to trample me. You know, like there is a lot of like, this is how you should do it. And when I'm like, no, it's not there. It makes you feel bad. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Tara Reid (02:47)
Mm.
Then you fade to the back and your voice isn't heard and you're not. Yeah. I've been there.
Laura Kendrick (03:00)
And that's really fascinating
that you said, like, I hadn't actually connected that dot, but I have, there's a lot of like past mastermind and group coaching trauma coming up for me right now. So like, ⁓ no.
Tara Reid (03:12)
I hear you. Yep. I have some trauma too.
Laura Kendrick (03:17)
OK, so you are talking here about quiet hospitality marketing. I just like, I mean, when we started talking about this, I was like, my god, yes, just yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You're pulling at all the threads and like really folding all the things together. And I adore that because I firmly believe that when you find whatever version of this works for you and your business and your people,
It not only provides a hospitality for your people and makes them feel good, it makes all the things happen, but it feels good for you too. And I love that you're here. So let's like, let's dive in.
Tara Reid (03:56)
I'm excited, yes, let's go. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (04:00)
OK, so talk to me about what do you mean by quiet hospitality marketing? How do you see shifting this for people who don't want to shout from the rooftops all the time and aren't the loudest voice in the room?
Tara Reid (04:15)
So I think it's a lot about, you know, understanding your own strengths and weaknesses, first of all. So I could say like what works for me is blogging SEO, like having people find me organically, also doing collaborations for those quick wins because the rest are more long-term evergreen strategies and email newsletter, creating free content, delivering value. ⁓ But
It really does come down to like how you work best. Cause I know like I have some people in my audience who are like, yeah, I'm a huge introvert, but I actually thrive in group settings. So you can lean into that. There's other people who are like, I thrive just on one-to-one conversations. Like, well then get on podcasts, like do interviews. there's lots of ways that you can use your strengths in a way that's going to feel quiet for you. And I think that's the biggest piece is like,
Laura Kendrick (04:53)
Mm-hmm.
Right? Right?
Tara Reid (05:13)
what actually is going to work for your personality. Because even if we're all introverts, we're still slightly different. Like I'm I'm an introvert who also has ADHD and social anxiety. So I'm like a little different than somebody who is like, I love like events or going to in person things. I just have to recharge later. So I have to be, you know, more mindful about how many I'm doing. Whereas for me, I'm like, yeah, I can do like one a year. That's maximum in person.
Laura Kendrick (05:19)
Yes.
You know what's funny though is that actually getting on stage and keynoting and like really kind of owning the space for me is a tactic that helps me in my introversion. Because it's not as though like I find it, I mean, I do find being on stage fun.
but I find events with huge rooms of people, like I am going to fade into the background. I am never going to stand up. I actually have a friend who will show up like wearing all red and like huge high heels so that she'll stand out. And I will never do that. I will be the person who will find a table, find somebody I like and never leave that person ever again. And it's like, I met one person at this long event and that's not beneficial. So the way I actually like, that's my tactic. Cause if I get on stage,
Tara Reid (06:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (06:26)
the people come to me and then I don't have to do the like extroverted thing of getting to know people.
Tara Reid (06:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. 100 % I think that's kind of why I like ⁓ hosting my own like virtual summits and bundles and I'm now doing like a low lift collaboration guide ⁓ once a quarter. So it allows me to like connect with other people but it's like on my terms.
Laura Kendrick (06:38)
Mm.
Yes,
yes. I mean, welcome to my summit. Like, hello, yeah.
Tara Reid (06:55)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (06:58)
Same deal.
I love that. okay, you also were talking about creating these like low key touch points and like creating this conversion. I look, what was the words that you put were? my gosh.
Tara Reid (07:17)
you
Laura Kendrick (07:18)
helping the people self-select in. That was like the phrase that when you wrote that, I was like, my God, yes. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about how you guide people and how you do personally, like set up this like genuine thoughtful hospitality within the business and the marketing.
Tara Reid (07:40)
Yeah, I think that kind of comes from before, like when I was on social media and doing all the things of like, I feel like I'm just shouting into a void. And I was like, how can I make it so it's more like consent based? Like I know people want to hear from me. So that's kind of where I went all in on my email list. And I really treated it like it was its own community. So this is where I'm sharing the best content. This is where like I'm sharing the best stories.
Laura Kendrick (07:49)
No, for sure.
Tara Reid (08:09)
where you can connect with me. And I really treated it like a community itself versus just because I knew that people who were on there actually signed up, they gave me their email address. They didn't just like click a follow button while they were randomly scrolling. Like they were intentional about for some reason they wanted something from me.
Laura Kendrick (08:29)
Yeah, but that's so true because so many people look at their email as a transactional space. There's so much conversation in marketing about you have to grow your list. OK, sure. But then it's about then selling to them, how engaged are they? And it never has to do with the back and forth. You're actually building a relationship with these people. It is not quite that transactional, or it shouldn't be for many of us.
Tara Reid (08:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think I'm kind of against the grain there too, because I'm like, I'm all about growing your email list, but I'm also somebody who like, I'll, clean my list every quarter and usually I remove like 3000 people. I, I also like, one other example, I have a, I call it my longterm evergreen email sequence. So it's like nine months now. I just added a few more months to it. And basically it's like my best.
Laura Kendrick (09:05)
⁓ I'm vicious. Yeah, I'm vicious about cleaning. Yeah. Yeah.
Tara Reid (09:22)
Email newsletters that I've repurposed or tweaked and then put into this series because I was like, anyone new is going to miss out on these emails. And these are the ones that got the highest open rates or click rates or the most replies. And I want to reuse them. So I put them into this series. ⁓ So every Saturday, everyone will get a sustainable Saturday email. And, you know, it's so much fun. you put these are my like by.
Laura Kendrick (09:44)
love that.
Tara Reid (09:48)
best open emails to on a Saturday, which is surprising. But ⁓ the first email is like your typical, you know, welcome to sustainable Saturdays. Here's what it's all about and what you'll get in your inbox every Saturday. The second and third email are kind of ⁓ what I call my repelling emails. So these emails are intentionally the most polarizing ones where I'm sharing. Here's my values. Here's what I believe.
Laura Kendrick (09:51)
Yeah.
Tara Reid (10:17)
Here's some hot takes in the online space that I disagree with. And I did that intentionally because I want people to like right away know if I'm right for them. And those two emails get the most replies from people who are like, my gosh, this like so resonated. I love this email. This was the best. And then it also gets the most unsubscribes, which is fully intentional.
Laura Kendrick (10:28)
Yes.
Mm.
Right. And I that's I mean, for the audience to this summit, most of them are fairly they've been in the business for a while, so they get that. But like, it's not a thing. that's like, you know, repelling somebody is important and cleaning the list and all the things. But it is really interesting how and we can all like reflect back to those early days when it was like, no, must hold on to the list. And some people still do that stuff.
Tara Reid (11:04)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (11:07)
But it is so important, especially when you're thinking about putting in this intentional marketing, this hospitality, this human-centered thing, is that we don't connect with everybody. Like we have, you know, I'm like actually looking out a window of my neighborhood and there are neighbors we're very close with, neighbors I don't know. I'm lucky enough not to have neighbors I don't like, but I know that that exists. So it's that thing of like some people you jive with and some people you don't. And you don't want that. I actually think about this a lot when...
Tara Reid (11:28)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (11:37)
people ⁓ talk about the trolls out on internet and the people who are just out there to start a fight. I'm like, but why would you want those people? Why are you posting stuff that is intentionally creating that? Why is that something you want to bring into your world? I would rather do what you're doing and create that. Are you in the right place? Because you can choose to be someplace else, and I respect the heck out of that.
Tara Reid (11:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I think like I, made me think of somebody, I can't remember what they call it, but there are content on Facebook is always like, I forget, they have like a name for it, but it's basically content that is created in order to elicit anger or responses. And they're like teaching that as a way to grow your audience. And I'm like, unless your main focus is like getting paid from meta.
for views. I don't think this is a good business strategy.
Laura Kendrick (12:32)
Yeah.
Right,
right. Yeah, I don't, yeah, that definitely doesn't align with me personally. And I feel like it's, and probably most of the people here, I mean, we're talking about people who are thinking about marketing in a thoughtful and holistic way. But I love that you are like dialing into the fact that there are different ways. Like that's where my heart and head always live. That there is no real like templatized way to.
Well, do anything. Like, it's all so nuanced and so different. And it has to be in alignment with you and your business and your goals and your audience and, like, all the things. So I so adore this. And I love the Sustainability Saturdays. Like, so, so good. Are you also sending, ⁓ like, live emails every week, too?
Tara Reid (13:20)
.
Yeah, usually, I mean, I email a lot. So I do understand why my unsubscribes are higher than normal because I am like, it's my main channel. I'm like, so usually two to four emails throughout the week and then this is Saturday.
Laura Kendrick (13:41)
But that's your platform of choice. that's so, so good. When you're coaching introverts, have you seen any really creative or heard any kind of things that they come up with of how to really embrace that visibility and all that goodness in their own quiet way outside of what you're doing?
Tara Reid (14:03)
Definitely a lot are leaning into like borrowing other people's audiences. and I like, I've been pushing now that I've done this quarterly guide. like, this is the perfect strategy for introverts. More people need to do this. It's like so low lift and you are helping your audience with a limited time freebie. You're collaborating with a dozen or so other people to share their insights as well.
Laura Kendrick (14:09)
Mm-hmm.
Tara Reid (14:31)
and you're growing your email list. Like my one in December, actually had the same, actually more people, a few more people signed up for that in December than I had signed up for my last Introvertpreneur virtual summit, which was a lot more work.
Laura Kendrick (14:44)
Oh, wow. Yeah,
yeah. That's so interesting.
OK, so tell me a little bit about the quiet infrastructure behind the scenes that you mentioned that I'm so curious about that. is it outside of is it the email or is it like more to that that you're thinking about that creates this like quiet marketing hospitality environments?
Tara Reid (15:08)
I feel like I have like a little, I like to call it an ecosystem. So it's like, ⁓ my main focus is email. So that's like the end place I want everyone to go. So that's where I nurture and sell and build trust. And then I also do blogging. So blogging is like my bringing in new people organically. Like Google has been my number one traffic source for 15 years. ⁓ even with AI, like
Laura Kendrick (15:12)
Mmm.
Tara Reid (15:37)
AI search. It's still my top search. just, it's definitely gone down, but I feel like the quality has gone up with those leads and that traffic.
Laura Kendrick (15:45)
So interesting. love that you
said that, because I know that's a conversation that's going on, but that's interesting.
Tara Reid (15:51)
Mm And then I also like blogs are perfect for sharing on Pinterest, bring in extra traffic. I also do collaboration. So quick wins, hosting my own events, participating in other events. And all of that kind of works together as like a swirly perfect system. So nothing, it's not just long term strategies like SEO and Pinterest that take time, but it's also collabs that kind of give
My email list a quicker influx of new people.
Laura Kendrick (16:23)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I think that's an important thing too is to have that mix. It's kind of like the offer suite too, right? That you have the various kinds of offers in order to give people space to kind of come in where it's comfortable and for you to be able to work in your own way, whatever that might be, where it's the sometimes people have those high ticket offers for those big hits of income, but then there's also the smaller ones, there's ongoing ones, you know, that they all have their
Tara Reid (16:32)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (16:51)
time and place within the business ecosystem. So I love that you're thinking about that in marketing too, because you should be. So yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing.
Tara Reid (16:58)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (17:00)
Yeah. Any strategies that you've seen, like outside of what you've done, have you seen any strategies that are like very, very rich for like introverts that almost like, and I want to think, I'm kind of thinking of it in a slightly different way of not necessarily even for the introverted business owner, but any strategies that the introverted like consumer of the bit, whatever that business owner is putting out there that really seems to resonate with folks like that.
Tara Reid (17:24)
you
think the biggest thing that I've seen is that, or learned as well is that a lot of us introverts are also empaths. And I think that is a big advantage in terms of marketing and your messaging and how you're able to connect with people. It's just that you may have that, you know, people pleaser, ⁓ you know, does this person want to like, do they want to hear from me? Like I'm nervous to reach out about this.
Laura Kendrick (17:36)
Mmm.
Tara Reid (17:56)
If you get past that, like your ability to connect with people is your superpower. So I think ways that you can use that to your advantage, you're gonna stand out. It's just a matter of what's gonna work for you. So ⁓ yeah, I feel like as empaths, like, we can put ourselves in the customer's shoes so much better.
and so much easier and that is nothing but a benefit in terms of like how you're going to talk about your offer how you're going to market it.
Laura Kendrick (18:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like that is that's actually like that's the my drop moment here because that's something that all those extroverted people who are teaching us to like templatize things and telling us that we're doing it wrong when it like we it doesn't resonate with us. They're missing something else that we have. And to actually grant yourself the permission, the space, the freedom, whatever it is to pause and actually harness that and take advantage of that.
That is an amazing thing to think about the energy that you're putting in. When you're sending this email, what is the intention? What is the person on the other end of it? What are they going to feel, encounter when they read this or that event? Anything like that? That's something that the people who are very comfortable just being out in the world and just having the light shine on them and take up the space and the energy, rad for them. But they don't often think in terms of that.
So I think you're right. It's such a gift to be on the other end of that. And it's such a gift to be that person and grant yourself the permission to really lean into it and be like, no, I have this thing. Mm-hmm.
Tara Reid (19:36)
I think that that permission is a big piece. know,
I know for myself, like even when I left social media, it was all about permission. I had to give myself, like I had to look at my metrics to give myself permission to listen to what I was feeling about leaving. because it was like, you have to be on social media. Like you're gonna, nobody's going to find you and you're not going to be like up to date on what's happening in the online space if you're not on social media. So I really had to like,
look at those numbers and that's what gave me permission. That's a big piece of it. It's like we have to give ourselves permission to not listen to every strategy out there, not listen to like exactly what other people are doing, like take it in, but then shift it. Yeah. And leave the rest.
Laura Kendrick (20:08)
Yeah.
Yes. Take what you need from it. Yes. And then leave the rest. Yes, yes,
yes. 100%. Could not agree with that more. Because it can't, you literally cannot copy and paste somebody else's business on top of yours. Like it just will not work. So yeah, I love it.
Tara Reid (20:39)
big part of trusting yourself versus trusting other people and following their frameworks. And even in terms of AI, like you trust AI to write this better than you trust yourself to and your however many years of expertise and experience. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (20:42)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I know, I know,
I know. Yeah, yeah. Well, now you're just going to lean into something that we could crack open a whole can of worms. But I am so grateful that you are here and this conversation, think too many people need to hear it. And so hopefully we will get it out there a little bit further. But before we head out, will you tell some folks where they might be able to find you? And we'll also link to all the things below. But where can they find you?
Tara Reid (21:23)
Yeah. So I'm not on social media. So my best place is my website at the Tara read.com. And, ⁓ if you sign up for my free quiz, it's called what's your introverted superpower. So it kind of taps into what your strengths are as a business owner. And then it gives you strategies that are maybe a better fit for your personality and how you work best.
Laura Kendrick (21:45)
love it. Well thank you so so much for coming and lending your voice. I'm just so grateful that you're here. Thank you.
Tara Reid (21:53)
Thank you.
The Normalizing Effect.
A Therapist-Turned-Copywriter's Approach to Copy That Actually Connects
-
Kirsty is an ex-psychotherapist, ex-copywriter, and ex-pert communicator who helps you speak really good, compelling human, right across your business, from real-time, verbal interactions like sales calls, team meetings, and podcast interviews, to asynchronous written interactions, like your pitches, emails, website, and even your posts in Slack.
Her work is not about tips and tricks like, “dig into pain points at the top of the page!” or “lower your voice an octave to appear more authoritative” (*insert eye roll*) —
But about bigger-picture, human-centred strategy.
The kind that puts your relationship with yourself, your business, and the people you serve right at the centre. -
A practical assessment tool that pinpoints your communication style, and offers personalised insight on:
+ which points of communication you're already acing in your business
+ where (and how!) you could improve
+ 2 to 3 specific strategies to try this week -
Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Kirstie, I am very excited you're here and I'm excited to fold the people in because we've already been laughing a whole bunch. So, welcome.
Kirsty Fanton (00:17)
Thank you.
Laura Kendrick (00:19)
Before we dive in, tell the people who don't know who you are but should know who you are a little bit about you.
Kirsty Fanton (00:26)
Yeah, sure. So I am an ex psychotherapist and an ex launch copywriter, and I now bring both of those skillsets together to help online business owners really hear and get heard when it matters most. across all different points of communication, whether that is like real time spoken stuff, like on a podcast, for example, on a stage, in a team meeting, on a sales call, or the asynchronous written stuff, like really acing a great email sequence or great social media posts or a really
know, compelling pitch, whatever that looks like. So it's definitely my happy place and I'm glad after like a 12 year career with those other things, I finally brought them together here. Happy days.
Laura Kendrick (01:06)
Yeah, yeah.
Honestly, when you said psychotherapist and launching and you were like, and I put them together, I was like, where is this going?
Kirsty Fanton (01:15)
Hahaha
Laura Kendrick (01:15)
God only knows.
Kirsty Fanton (01:16)
launch doesn't
go as like as you planned and you want to have a breakdown. ⁓ I'm the safe space. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (01:20)
Yeah, I understand. ⁓ my God, so good, so good.
Okay, so we are here talking about something that people should be talking about more when it comes to marketing. You wanna kick us off on kinda like how you got to this idea to introduce it to the people?
Kirsty Fanton (01:41)
Yeah sure so I'm like can I talk about it obtusely and then like drop the nugget or should I just not tease until I say what I'm here to talk about? I feel like it's too early in the morning, surprise me yet.
Laura Kendrick (01:52)
Surprise us.
Kirsty Fanton (01:57)
So basically because I did spend the first part of my career working as a therapist ⁓ obviously I have so much experience of using only words and body language I guess in a room with people to develop really honest transformative kind of relationships and all the research when you're doing or your university and your post-grad around what actually works in therapy tells us that
relationship with the therapist is the most important factor in determining outcomes, which I'm always such a fan of and I always was and I think as well when I did start copywriting that was something I brought with me too because it's like there are a thousand different approaches, formats, formulas, know templates you could choose to use but at the end of the day the thing you really want to be prioritizing time and time again is the relationship you have with the person on the other side of the screen.
So with that in mind, the thing that I wanted to share with you and your people today is the skill of really normalizing your prospects' experience, feelings, concerns, objections, because I think unfortunately there is a bit of a trend in the online space to unintentionally other your prospects. So put a gap between what they're experiencing and you as like, you
Laura Kendrick (03:08)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty Fanton (03:27)
the person behind the offer over here ⁓ because I think sometimes it doesn't come from a bad place. I think there's a maybe a concern about, but if I admit to like understanding what this feels like I'm gonna position myself as someone who isn't worthy of moving this person towards the outcome I'm promising.
Laura Kendrick (03:27)
you
Yes.
Yeah,
and there's, that's interesting because the, like so many things just came up for me as you were saying, the way you were saying that, is that first of all, think AI is doing that too. Like I can't tell you how many times I have AI like write just something at all. And I have to be like, can we not be shamy, please? Like, can we please? Like we are aspirational around here and kind and thoughtful and not like, you're failing. Like that's what AI wants to do. So that's helpful.
Kirsty Fanton (04:01)
you
Laura Kendrick (04:12)
But then the other side of it comes from this place of like, I feel like almost like guruism. Like we feel like we have to be so much further ahead that we put up this facade of like, I'm not feeling this, but I understand that you are. And there's that kind of quiet feeling that people get that is like, ⁓ all right, I'm not doing it right. I need to do it better. And that doesn't feel good.
Kirsty Fanton (04:30)
you
feel good and I think it also doesn't help business right because I feel like if you feel too separate from the person who is offering you something or you feel like you need to be performative in front of them ⁓ it can make it really hard to show up as you are with what you've got and in whatever format that is so if you're like I really need to optimize my sales page but I know at the moment it's pretty shit like I'm embarrassed to take it to this copywriter or if you're thinking of joining some sort of group program and you're like god I feel like I'm gonna
Laura Kendrick (04:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kirsty Fanton (05:09)
be like the least experienced person in the room and that's going to show and you know I'm going to be the fish out of water here so I think and sorry just to go back a step because I love what you said about the guruism too but I think
Laura Kendrick (05:17)
Yeah.
Kirsty Fanton (05:24)
for some people, including AI, not a person, but a tool that many people use. The thing that they will try and do there, where they're wanting to be communicating with their audience and their prospects in a way that is like, but hey, don't worry, like I've been there too. They make it very much seem like a thing in their past that they have resolved once and forever. And now they're operating on this different plane where they never have to worry about that or they've never done a mistake.
Laura Kendrick (05:47)
Mmm.
Kirsty Fanton (05:54)
And I feel like that is also quite damaging to the potential of the relationship between business owner and prospect.
Laura Kendrick (05:55)
Yeah.
For sure. I mean, yeah, I'm even thinking about, I have a small group cohort membership situation going on right now. And I was just thinking about the last group call we had, which was last week. And it was actually lovely, because one of the people in there actually does, where she helps people break through their own invisible barriers into their next big success, which I love. But she also, the thing I love most about her is that she was talking about
her stuff and being like, and isn't that one of mine? Like, look at that, you know? And it's that idea of, I'm actually flashing back to a conversation I had with somebody in person where they were very new to business and they were showing up at a networking event, which like, first of all, bravo, like amazing that you showed up. And she was kind of, she was trying to put words on something and I actually gave her, I was like, what you're talking about is called imposter syndrome. it was, but it was that thing of being able to say,
Yes, that's a thing. And it changes over time. It never goes away. But kind of you're able to see it. And it's going to shift because you're always moving into bigger and newer spaces. And so it's something you have to like wrap your mind around. But the people who are like, we can solve imposter syndrome is just no. even here as two copywriters, as marketing, like we're always facing new marketing challenges, new copy challenges. I look at my own website right now and I'm
I can't tell you how many conversations I've had where I'm like, my website needs a refresh. It's needed a refresh for two years and I still haven't done it. So, know.
Kirsty Fanton (07:44)
Me too, do not worry,
yes. I feel like my homepage is great, my sales pages are great, the in-between pages could definitely use some optimization.
Laura Kendrick (07:54)
homepage is a disaster. yeah, it's like,
mean, go out messy people. It's fine. But I, I totally, I totally feel that in and I'm actually honestly, there's a couple of the like, really big name people that come to mind in that like the perfectionism like vibe that they've handed out, which I don't even know if they're intentionally doing it or if we've like put them on pedestals in some way or there's some kind of
Kirsty Fanton (07:59)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (08:23)
And they're wildly successful, which I love. But I'm also thinking about the fact that there's great distance between the consumers and them. And also there's an element of like, I wonder how many people are long-term repeat buyers.
Kirsty Fanton (08:42)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (08:43)
And that's like, or are they capturing people just in a very specific stage in their business journey? And then it's like, and they have to keep pulling in and there's, but I feel like elements of that have to do with there's a gap between like where they are and where we are, or at least are perceived where they are and where we are.
Kirsty Fanton (09:06)
Yes, that's right. And it's a funny, it's such a nuanced thing, I think too, because of course, you know, if you are looking to work with someone or hire someone with a certain skill set, you want them to be more experienced in that thing than you are so that they can help you to a better outcome than you could get on your own. But I think it's about, okay, well, how do we acknowledge that and sit with that and still admit that we're human and that, you know, we are not
Laura Kendrick (09:11)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty Fanton (09:36)
⁓
like impervious to all these very human experiences that our prospects are having and have had because I think normalizing and meeting with someone is not about being like, yeah, I've had that same experience. Sometimes that's true and that's great because then you can deep dive into that and build out I think some really great relational like storytelling, but it can just be about like, my god, like yes, I know that feeling. I know that feeling of disappointment ⁓ and that in its
Laura Kendrick (09:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Kirsty Fanton (10:06)
can create a really nice meeting place because the person feels seen heard and understood without necessarily the other person being like yes I've been in your exact situation.
Laura Kendrick (10:09)
Yeah.
Yes,
yes, which the story I was telling you before we hit record feel like yesterday I was at the park with my family in the afternoon and it was, it was like spring weather, but cold weather. So it was, you know, not the warmest. And after an hour and a half, I got really, really cold and we get in the car. And the first thing my partner and son say to me when I say, am freezing is it's not that cold outside, which is like, thanks.
But really all I needed to hear was like, oh goodness, let's turn on the heat for you. You know what I mean? Safe space, container of like, oh, I see your problem. Let me help you rather than tell you how, well, my experience is different than yours. Like, ew.
Kirsty Fanton (10:50)
Yes, that's right!
So good. I also love that in that story, your husband and child's voice was like Elmo.
Laura Kendrick (11:08)
You're welcome.
Kirsty Fanton (11:09)
⁓
So good, made my day. But yes, like such a good example and I think such a nice clean metaphor of like, you know, they didn't need to say minor cold 2, right, but they needed to hear you and then respond in a way that communicated they had heard what message you just shared with them, right?
Laura Kendrick (11:27)
Right. Right.
Right. I think that's a thing that also, and I think we all do it. I've caught myself doing it a billion times and I try and like put it back in the box, but I fail miserably all the time. But when somebody says something instead of trying to like actively say, ⁓ I've been there, just allowing their space to be their space and validating it is really all anybody needs. They don't necessarily need you to...
them that you've been there and you know your way out at every turn, it can just be, yeah, that's a valid concern. Let's work on that. Just like the, I really needed was the damn heat.
Kirsty Fanton (12:11)
Yes, but also such a, sorry I'm still laughing because of the heat in my voice. But yes, such a good point because I think ⁓ there's often, know, conversations and relationships are dynamic things, right? And you know, in therapy as well as in marketing and copy and business, you know, there is a time and space for...
sort of centering yourself and your own experience. Usually when you're trying to do things like, ⁓ you know, communicate expertise or build trust in you, your skills, your experience, your method. But more often than not, it's not about hogging that space. It's about creating the space for the other person to come into and be seen and heard and understood. So like you said there, it's not always about jumping in with like, yes, I understand that I've, done that tour. I've felt that feeling too.
Sometimes it's about, that sounds like really frustrating. Like, what can we do here? How can we find a way forward for you that feels good? ⁓ Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (13:05)
Yeah
Yeah, that's
amazing. How do you see this play out in marketing? That's an interesting, because so often, especially at the top of the funnel, we're honestly in so many spaces in the digital space, we are separated geographically. So we're never like face to face. So we're not reading, like we're sending crap out there and it is going to the void and we're not really getting a response from the vast majority of people. And we can't read the subtle like, you know,
lean in or lean out kind of thing where it's like, okay, this is landing or it's not. And so we're, feel like sometimes it is truly like, I don't know, an exercise in ego, which I'm not super great at. I don't like to talk it myself. So it's, how do you see this kind of, how do you think about it when you're thinking about marketing in particular?
Kirsty Fanton (13:52)
You
Mmm.
I mean, like all copywriters listening would be like, well, of course, this is something she's going to say. I think like voice of customer interviews is such a great place to start because I think so often, assuming you're speaking with, you know, people who really are your ideal prospect and, know, represent so many of the things about your ideal prospect. think if you can get inside of that conversation and be in that moment, as you say, get those nonverbal and verbal cues about, okay, what in this conversation is really landing for them or what in this
Laura Kendrick (14:08)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty Fanton (14:31)
conversation
is really important to them like where are they getting like visibly frustrated or visibly excited I think you can then start to map the conversations you're having digitally along a lot of those conversations ⁓ I think as well obviously like when you can get data so clicks you know visits ⁓ you know all the things that you would track enough in a funnel when you can get those you can make relatively informed decisions about what is
Laura Kendrick (14:53)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsty Fanton (15:01)
isn't hitting the mark because I think even though in a lot of cases you're not getting the chance to you know actually speak with someone and see how something lands in real time there are behaviors that you know the magic of the internet can track for you that can help you just continually inform your hypothesis right and I'm forever saying that everything we do is an experiment and really our only goal is to try and do it better than we did it last time ⁓ which yeah
Laura Kendrick (15:28)
my God, isn't
that the human condition? Like I'm even flashing to like in-person moments of like, you tell a joke and it just goes, like you laugh at it and nobody else does. And it's like, well, that wasn't funny. Great. You know?
Cool. you're just constantly getting the feedback. yeah, it's just a weird way to be getting it based on clicks and opens and visits and transactions. But yeah, you're so right. Yeah.
Kirsty Fanton (15:57)
Yeah, and I mean it's not a perfect science, But I think anything where there's a human being in the mix is not going to be a perfect science because there are so many uncontrollable factors and so many, you know, different bits of context that come into play. So it's not about perfection, I think it's just about, you know, making informed decisions and doing the best you can and not being afraid to give something a crack.
Laura Kendrick (16:17)
I love it, I love it. And I couldn't agree more about voice to customer. I am such a, yeah, that's like a flag, will never stop waving. I'm like, you really have to get that. You don't have anything. And as a copywriter, it is so frustrating when you're dealing with a client who's like, we don't need this. I'm like, you do. There's no way this is gonna land how you want it to if you don't have this. So yeah, I mean, it's huge.
Kirsty Fanton (16:42)
or even worse
when they give you like the doc with all the like infographics, like, no, we don't need it because we have this and you're like, it's not the same, it's not the same thing.
Laura Kendrick (16:50)
Yes, my gosh, yes, where they're like, we've had the,
what is it? I have one bigger company client who was, I forget what they kept calling it. And they made it sound like it was gonna be what it was and then it showed up and it was, yeah, it was like statistics. like, this many people have a high school education. I'm like, my God, I don't care. I get how this is beneficial for you as a company, but it does not help me write this email.
Kirsty Fanton (17:16)
Yeah,
100 %!
Laura Kendrick (17:19)
Yeah, yeah.
So how do you see, that's an interesting thing. How do you specifically with voice to customer, because it is gold for so many reasons, but how do you see using that to take out this element of othering or shaming from the marketing, the copy?
Kirsty Fanton (17:36)
Great question. I think, ⁓ again, besides the stuff that you can sort of replicate from the conversation, which isn't always available because I think voice of customer obviously isn't about trying to experiment with ideas, it's about trying to get information that you can then feed into your marketing. But there might be some exchanges in an interview.
where you know you get to something that's really important and they share something with you and the way you respond can really inform them what should happen in your copy because it unlocks more disclosure or even like literal leaning in from them where they're like really feeling the exchange. think beyond that you know of course there's I mean there's so many like you know old copywriting cliches that are actually really valuable like you know start the conversation with what your prospect's thinking about like really get inside their heads and I think again
when you're considering doing that through the lens of not othering them, it's really important that you're not, for example, you know, if you're talking to a pain aware audience, you're not just like labeling like, or pulling out all the like really big pain points for them and being like, is this you? And then, you know, moving into like why things aren't working for them, et cetera, et cetera. You know, there should be something in there of like,
an empathic statement or some empathic copy that is really delivering the message of, you know, how much this sucks, obviously in better, better wording, ⁓ you know, and the reasons why and what it actually means for them, I think is often the missing point, right? Because then if you can talk about what something means for someone, you're demonstrating an ability to really understand their situation ⁓ beyond just what someone
Laura Kendrick (18:58)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kirsty Fanton (19:25)
else could see from the outside. So I think that is often where this can start in marketing and in copy.
Laura Kendrick (19:32)
Yeah, I love that. That's so you went to a place I didn't expect you to go. So like that's yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's yeah. And again, I've got my wheels turning, which I mean, to anyone who's been around here for a hot minute knows, like there is definitely a selfish element to doing these summits because I get to like actually have these like conversations that get the gears turning in my head and like get the creativity flowing. And it's like it's so fun. Like it fuels me to so.
Kirsty Fanton (19:37)
Surprise!
Ha ha.
Laura Kendrick (20:02)
This was an amazing conversation. It's got me thinking about so many things. So I love it. Love it. Yeah. Yeah. No, no.
Kirsty Fanton (20:07)
Yay, great. And I think just to throw in one other thing too, like, you know, you can use... No, we're
done. Unless it's in an Elmo voice. Sorry. There's no time. Sorry, like, how do I recover from that?
Laura Kendrick (20:22)
welcome.
Kirsty Fanton (20:23)
The other thing I will say is that ⁓ normalizing can be done really simply, like even for example, like...
you know, on a sales page, I'll often have, you know, depending on what the data is telling me to include, you have a section at the end that really speaks to like lingering objections, like the stuff that, you know, people are going to get like the 2 % of people are still going to be stuck on by the time they get there. And you can even normalise that experience with like, hey, bottom of the page lingerer, like, yeah, I do it too. Like, you know, it doesn't have to be a huge thing that you're normalising. It can just be someone's action or, you know, reservations about
Laura Kendrick (20:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kirsty Fanton (21:01)
something right like you can normalise those feelings and I think anything around normalising like how scary it might be to trust a promise or a person or a new offer particularly in 2026 you know it's probably a really valuable use of this skill.
Laura Kendrick (21:17)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I love that. That was totally worth sticking around for.
even without the Elmo voice.
Kirsty Fanton (21:26)
Okay.
Can you imagine if I'd done that whole thing as Omar?
Laura Kendrick (21:28)
goodness.
We're gonna have to go back through and edit it so it's much higher. ⁓
Kirsty Fanton (21:33)
Ha
ha ha!
Laura Kendrick (21:34)
So good, so good. All right, Kirstie, where can the people find you out in this big bad world of ours? Makes you want to share your street address, right?
Kirsty Fanton (21:34)
you
⁓ I wasn't expecting that. ⁓
Totally, I feel so safe right now. ⁓ So you can find me at kirstiefanton.com and I'm also on Instagram at kirstie.fanton.
Laura Kendrick (21:59)
Well, thank you so much. This was really, really fun.
Kirsty Fanton (22:04)
No thank you, this was great!
The AI-Human Balance.
How to Automate Without Making Your Marketing Feel Cold
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Shawn Every is a Certified AI Consultant, speaker, and founder of Ask AI With Shawn. She helps coaches, consultants, and women entrepreneurs implement AI in ways that are human-first, intentional, and sustainable.
Before AI, Shawn spent decades learning how to make complex systems work for real people — in healthcare operations, high-touch customer service, and wellness coaching. Every chapter taught her the same thing: when people feel seen and supported, they perform better, lead better, and show up better.
She brings that same conviction to technology. Using her 3 P’s Framework — Pause, Process, Prioritize — Shawn helps business owners integrate AI in a way that fits their voice, protects their energy, and actually sounds like them.
She speaks regularly at summits, business communities, and professional associations and is known for turning tech anxiety into genuine confidence. She shows up to every room the same way — warm, direct, and completely convinced that the woman in the back who thinks this isn’t for her is exactly who it’s for. -
The Capacity Snapshot
Burned out on AI tools that leave you colder than before? The Capacity Snapshot is five honest questions and a warm personalized reflection of exactly where you are right now. No scores. No grades. Just clarity on what is draining you and one real next step toward breathing room. -
Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Welcome, Sean. I am so excited that you are joining us with this conversation. And what we're about to talk about is so interesting and very timely. And as you pointed out, when we first started talking about this, something that people aren't talking about. So I am very excited that you are here.
Shawn Every (00:25)
Well, I am excited to be here, Laura. When I first saw the theme for the summit, was like, hmm, hospitality. You know, how can I be a part of that? so that's where I came up with AI burnout is a hospitality problem.
Laura Kendrick (00:48)
Yeah, I cannot wait to dig into this. But before we do, tell the people who don't know who you are just a little bit about you so that they can start to understand the magic that is Sean.
Shawn Every (01:01)
Yes, so I am a certified AI consultant and coach.
I help female entrepreneurs who are coaches, consultants, and small business owners themselves to learn how to get through their to-do lists in a day, right? Because most of my clients are overwhelmed.
with that to-do list. And, but they started out in the morning and at night before bed, it's longer than when they started out, right? Because they're wearing all the hats in the business, all the things being everything to everybody. But I come in and I help take some of that off her plate with the use of AI. And
unlikely ways that she may not have thought of, not just in business, but in life as well.
Laura Kendrick (02:00)
So you are fully embracing AI. I love that. I love that.
Shawn Every (02:05)
And the reason why is because how I learned to use it in my own life. So I didn't come to entrepreneurship through the regular route. I was forced to retire early, kind of, from a corporate job that I had because I got sick and became disabled and could not.
hold down a full-time job anymore. So I was forced to come home and had to figure out for the last 20 years how I was going to still contribute to my household. so I've tried a lot of different, you know, business models and done a lot of things in those 20 years, but it wasn't until
AI came along, namely when chat GPT came out, that I really figured it out. Like this is what I want to do because I see how it's helping me in forming a business. But initially it helped me. And I'm going to say this, a lot of people are going to think, well, what is that? How does she do that? But it helped me to find my voice.
Laura Kendrick (03:21)
⁓ yeah. I know I can see that. I can see that. Yeah. That makes sense. But, and I, like, I want to, now that you said that, I want to dig in there, but I'm going to like pull us back into the hospitality thing or else we're going to spend our whole time there. I like that. Just, that just pulled it every string in my head and heart. And I'm like, so curious, but let, talk to me about AI burnout is how that's a hospitality problem.
Shawn Every (03:50)
Okay. when like, like my, my clients, you know, they're overwhelmed business owners who are overwhelmed and they're, they feel like they're behind. They are just running on fumes. they're, they're marketing can become purely transactional.
Laura Kendrick (04:18)
for
Shawn Every (04:19)
Okay. And they begin to.
show it in a lot of different ways, whether that be through their content or their follow-up, their proposals. The clients see it, they just don't know what it is, right?
So they're neglecting the...
that part of their business, right? when we, normally when we talk about burnout, it's, we think of it like a health or wellness issue, right? But it shows up in our marketing as we're being cold. You know, we're not, we're not,
We're not serving our client in the warm fashion that we're used to serving them. Or that they have come to, thank you, yes. Yes. So what I want people to really walk away with is that when you implement AI in
like a perfunctory, way, then
It loses depth It makes your marketing lose depth because what are they doing? They are automating. You know, we're automating how we respond to our DM conversations. We're not, we're pulling that human out of it. Yes. You know? And so that's what leads to that cold marketing, right?
Laura Kendrick (05:51)
that we're seeing right now where people are so hateful of AI. Right. Because that's what they're experiencing when they think of AI.
Shawn Every (05:59)
Right. Right. And the way that I, I have come to look at it is when we implement it, we have to be intentional about implementing it. know, we cannot become, I know this word is overused, but robotic, you know, or led, led that
Laura Kendrick (06:11)
Yes.
Shawn Every (06:21)
overflow into our business. Because people, they're going to stop buying, they're going to stop listening, they're going to, you know, because like you said, people are realizing and they're recognizing, it's easily recognizable when you have totally turned everything over to AI.
Laura Kendrick (06:38)
So how are you creatively, because this is what I'm curious about and I couldn't agree more. Well, and I love too that you're attaching this to burnout because I've definitely seen it in the scalability space that when people build teams and they create distance that what you're saying also like that transactionality, that coldness, that distance that comes into place when they start doing that and folding AI in. And I love that you're
connecting this to burnout because so many small teams or solopreneurs are experiencing it in a different way. But I don't think you're wrong. I think you're right on. But I'm really curious about how you see it in this kind of like, how are you creatively utilizing AI to kind of break through all of that and create these systems that prevent the burnout?
while still creating that humanness.
Shawn Every (07:33)
Yeah, that's a good question. So most AI training is all about doing more, right? Okay, more content, more automation, more output. And I get it. I get that, you know, that's what people want to
to sell, right? They want to sell that you can become more productive with this. But what I
where I, where it's different from me because people were tending to autumn are yeah, automate exhaustion. Like it being normal, calling it a strategy, but
because of where I came from with having to deal with health issues, limited energy, then.
The way that I approach it is a little bit differently. So I don't have you to just like first start working with a client to just go ahead and open the tool, OpenChat GPT. And let me start teaching you the tool. I do it to where,
We open chat GPT, before we open chat GPT, I ask my clients, where are you? What are you feeling? It's my framework. It's called the three piece framework. Pause, process, prioritize. So I need you to pause first and just really know where you are, what's going on. We need to get all of this out.
Laura Kendrick (09:12)
I mean, you prescribe for people to stop and think before they move, because like, novelty these days.
Shawn Every (09:20)
Right? Right.
Laura Kendrick (09:24)
That's refreshing.
Shawn Every (09:25)
I need you to take that pause. Can we just breathe? we just, you know, realize that all that noise out there?
compounded with all which you have going on yourself, it leads to the overwhelm and the exhaustion, the burnout, right? So let's address that first because we can pile two on top of two on top of two and we can get nowhere.
Laura Kendrick (09:53)
find it fascinating too, because in our online business space, especially among the women, there's a lot of conversations about burnout, which there should be, because so many of us have walked through it. But then I also think that so many of us, we go through it, we set up systems and become more aware so that we don't go through it again. But then we kind of, at least it feels to me like so many of us just kind of sit on the edge all the time.
We're about a foot distance from jumping off that edge at every moment, but it's almost like, like I'm proud of myself. I haven't stepped over the edge, but also do I have to live on the edge? So I love that you're talking about this of like, cause it feels to me even more from preventing burnout or recovering from burnout of like, we don't have to like even live close to it. We can take a huge stride back, which yes.
Sing it sister, because I want to hear some more.
Shawn Every (10:49)
And this is another word that I use.
capacity.
Laura Kendrick (10:53)
Mmm,
Shawn Every (10:54)
And that's what I had to, I had to learn myself first.
Laura Kendrick (11:00)
We all do, I think.
Shawn Every (11:02)
Yeah, like I had to start basing things on my capacity. Like what's my bandwidth? What's my energy? So checking in with yourself before you open that tool, before you open chat GPT and start working with it, it's going to make a huge difference. So I do was...
I call my brain dump to mega prompt kind of framework, right? Because a person may be so overwhelmed by AI, they don't even know where to start because you got all everybody's saying, well, use this tool, use that tool, or use it this way or use it that way. And they don't know where to start. So let's just brain dump.
You know, all those thoughts. Let's pick one thing that you want to take off your list. That's the prioritizing or well, let me back up. I've skipped ahead. Okay. The brain dump is the pausing, right? Cause you're releasing that out of all that mental clutter. Right. And.
So it may be a brain dump ⁓ for the day. That's how I do it. I wake up in the morning and I got my calendar, my to-do list, brain dump it into your AI of choice could be chat GPT. And of course I've trained mine now, so it knows me, but brain dump. Okay, look, this is what's on my table. What's on the table right here today, what's on my to-do list.
here is where my energy level is today. Like even saying that didn't get but four hours of sleep last night, so I'm running on fumes and I don't feel like I can really do a lot of brain intensive work right off this morning.
So a little tip, a little trick that I'm not telling you about is that I created a custom GPT that processes this for me. When I put that brain, it's called Bailey Brain Dump. And I dump it into Bailey and Bailey comes back and say, okay, first thing she tells me to do is breathe. That's a lot.
And, you know, she knows to let me calm down first. And you really know that based on my capacity or what I've told her, what my energy level is for the day. Okay. This is how we're going to structure your day. And also include in there, not just back to back calls or meetings that you have, but
that white space, putting that white space in there, which we all need.
Laura Kendrick (13:53)
Yeah, I'm terrible at putting that
Shawn Every (13:56)
And that should be a non-negotiable to have that white space on our calendars. Bailey reminds, cause sometimes I do forget and I want to, know, like the little energizer bunny and keep going and keep going. But she comes back and reminds me, okay, no, I've blocked off two to three.
And that is your time where you're not on calls. You're not, you know, using your brain to work through some kind of problem, but that's your time. Yeah. So, and I found that, you know, by using that method, it's really helped. I, I just gave you an example how I use it with a to-do list, but I use that pause process and prioritize.
in whatever situation my client is going through.
Laura Kendrick (14:52)
Yeah. That's interesting. That's super interesting. I, my brain skipped a beat right there. Didn't take enough down in white space today. But I, I think, I mean, it's interesting though, you're talking about capacity because it's, it's something that's been on my mind of like, I do understand deeply the lack of capacity, but there also comes the, like the flip side of it is I always think I have
far more capacity than I do. I think there more hours in the day. And I personally do not always factor in the white space because I do have an engine. I can just run. I have a lot of energy and I can go for it. But it also is like I am perpetually creating to-do lists that I cannot get through all of it. It's just too big. actually had a coach recently tell me to, he's a friend of mine.
say like, hate people with to do lists. Like I want them to do like time blocks. I'm like, yeah, but that's a problem for me because I think that everything takes me less time than it does. So I would perpetually have a calendar that would be forever. Like nothing would get done because it would be like, this will only take me like 20 minutes and it really takes me three hours. And I'm like, damn it. So. But I like this idea of using it to help you kind of weed through.
Shawn Every (16:03)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (16:09)
your own ability to like make it through the day. think that's amazing.
Shawn Every (16:13)
And I think that also, Laura, that if you take that same energy of using AI to work with your capacity, you also get a twofold reward because it expands your capacity. Because if you...
are using it and it is helping you to now put that white noise, the white space rather, white space in there, then as you get into the habit of using AI, then it's going to take some of your to-do list is going to be done now, right? And so now,
you are able to use that time that you had allotted for something off a task off your to do list to do something else. And to me that is stretching your capacity now. Now look at what you're able to accomplish by working with your capacity. that makes sense?
Laura Kendrick (17:27)
It does. it also draws the line into how this plays into hospitality because the person who is able to show up fully and be present has the energy and has the capacity and has the ability to lean into humanness rather than being in that burnt out frazzled state.
that so many of us find ourselves where, as you said, we get into that transactional state, that stress state that's like, just need to make the money, everything else needs to go away, which people can feel that at the end of the day. When you send that email, you make that social media post, you get on that sales call, they can feel that crap right on through those internet lines.
Shawn Every (18:10)
Yes, yes. Our energy is huge. sends out those vibes. Yeah. And I just, you know, I know it's different from the norm because I teach people to slow down first before they speed up. everybody else is teaching, let's speed it up. Let's get this done. Let's automate it. And I'm like, well, wait, let's...
Laura Kendrick (18:18)
I love you
Shawn Every (18:38)
Let's take a step back first, you know, before we just jump into this like this, because, because look at what it leads to.
Laura Kendrick (18:46)
Yeah. And isn't that kind of the first step of almost everything? It's like, you know, the first step to finding a loving relationship is to be able to love yourself. And like the first step to being hospitable to other people and thoughtful and loving and caring is to show that that same element to yourself. So I love this. I love this so much. Well, I am so grateful that you are sharing this with the crowd. Like, I think this is an amazing touch to add to this summit.
Is there a special place that you like to hang out that people can find you?
Shawn Every (19:19)
So it's kind of changing.
Laura Kendrick (19:22)
Fair. Isn't everything.
Shawn Every (19:24)
Yes. So I actually, I actually had been spending a lot of time on Facebook in my face. have a Facebook group for, for women who are female business owners. And I helped them with, you know, AI tools besides chat GPT, but keeping them up to date on everything and how they can apply it in their world.
But I am, I'm looking to move my community to a school community. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that's in the making, but for right now I am on, on Facebook as Sean Jackson, every, and I have my business page on Instagram, which I'm on there pretty regular too.
Laura Kendrick (19:53)
Yes.
Shawn Every (20:11)
⁓ I hang out on there AI with showing. So yeah, that's where I spend my time. And, but you can find me other, you know, other places as well.
Laura Kendrick (20:23)
We will link to all the things so that people can connect with you. And if the school community is live by the time this goes live, we'll link to that too. But thank you so much for coming and sharing this, because this is amazing. I'm so grateful that you came to share this thought process. And I'm so glad that you paused and actually thought about it when you saw this ask and were able to connect these dots, because it's amazing. So thank you.
Shawn Every (20:31)
This
Thank you. Thank you for having me, Laura. I'm looking forward to the summit and hearing everybody else too.
Laura Kendrick (20:57)
Me too, I'm so excited.
Fear-Based vs. Compassion-Based Marketing.
Which One Your Content Is Really Doing
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Barb Davids is a Website Visibility Strategist, founder of Compass Digital Strategies and host of the Small Business Marketing Sweet Spot podcast. She partners with solopreneurs and service-based business owners to bring structure and clarity to how their websites show up in search. With more than 25 years of experience in digital marketing, Barb focuses on aligning website visibility, content, and conversions so website efforts are intentional and sustainable. Her work emphasizes transparency, practicality, and long-term strategy over trends or quick wins.
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The Blog Page Power-Up Plan™ shows you where a specific page is falling short in search and what needs to be prioritized before investing more time or money into SEO/AI SEO.
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Laura Kendrick (00:09)
Hi Barb.
Barb Davids (00:11)
Hi Laura.
Laura Kendrick (00:12)
Thank you so much for being
here. I'm really excited to talk about this, because this is something that actually plays really close to my heart. So before we dive in, tell all the people who do not know who you are, but should know who you are, a little bit about you.
Barb Davids (00:29)
Okay, well, my name is Barb Davids and I like long walks on the beach and pina coladas. I'm just kidding. I love that line because I actually hate pina coladas, that song cracks me up and I always feel like I have to say something and it's like, okay, but besides that, I am a digital marketer, I'm a runner, I'm a dog mom. I'm also very self-amused, so.
Laura Kendrick (00:35)
and a warm snuggle.
Barb Davids (00:53)
That has been a new thing about me lately. I just cracked myself up. So I've been having some fun on Instagram, which is kind of kind of funny, but by day I'm a digital marketer. So I help people get their website more found with organic search and various other things, but basically trying to get more website traffic and by extension, more conversions, more leads to their, their sales.
Laura Kendrick (01:16)
I love it. I love it. And I love that description of self-amused. That is a good way to put that. And I'm right there with you. Like, I find myself hilarious. ⁓
Barb Davids (01:25)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (01:26)
Anyway, so this should be fun. Okay, so what you are here to talk about is this idea of marketing from a place of fear or a place of compassion, which is such an interesting conversation. And I am so excited to dig into that. So let's start with like, I don't know, start from the beginning of that thought.
Barb Davids (01:46)
So it's really interesting to me how this came about because I have so much control over my business and how I want everything to come out of it, how I want it to look and I have been really, it just, it cracks me up because of how I have to do SEO, AISCO, digital marketing. There's a method to it, there's a madness to it. And so you have to put out certain content in a certain way. And also with my control nature, it's like, okay, it has to be this way, it has to be that way.
this topic and the idea behind it literally popped into my head when I was on a run one morning and I was like, ⁓ you know, I was thinking about how, yes, they're just so nice. It feels effortless, right? It's like, that's how I should come up with content all the time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I was coming, I forget now how the first part of that came up with the idea, but it started with
Laura Kendrick (02:20)
Mmm. I love those moments.
It's like your brain coalesces and you're like, yes. Yeah, so good. Yeah.
Barb Davids (02:42)
Okay, well maybe how we're marketing our businesses is coming from a place of fear or a place of passion because we all hear about when we start our business, it should be something that you're passionate about or that's how people spend all their time with it. But then I thought, well, no, it's actually more of from fear or compassion because I'm thinking about when I first started my business and all of my articles were very how-to. They were listicles, the steps, the things of how to get things done.
and trying to prove my worth, basically. That is... Yeah. No, that's okay.
Laura Kendrick (03:16)
As you said that, sorry to interrupt, as you said that,
the like listicles, I hadn't thought about that word in so long, but that was such a thing for so long. Sorry, I just had this flashback. Carry on.
Barb Davids (03:26)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
no, that's okay, because it's kind of kind of coming back a little bit because a lot of people are throwing this idea around that AI and like perplexing chat to PT are using listicles to promote people. And that might have been for a little while because it just so happened that those were the things coming up. But everything's changing so fast. I think that finally got out of the woodworks. But
Laura Kendrick (03:42)
Mm.
Barb Davids (03:52)
The how-to's are coming more from a place of fear. Like we're not worthy enough or we're trying to prove ourself when we're starting our business or we're trying to do our content in order to get people to trust us. We want to make them trust us instead of doing content that comes from compassion where we're trying to help the people. Like we see that you're having the problem and here's how I can help. And that is more, you're building trust but in a more relationship-y type of way.
Laura Kendrick (03:56)
Yeah.
Barb Davids (04:21)
versus trying to be like, you trust me because I said so. And that's the difference kind of between the fear and the compassion.
Laura Kendrick (04:29)
It's funny, that's actually a trend I've been seeing for a long time with copyrighting clients that traditionally speaking, you dig into the pain points and all the negative things. And you do need to know those things about your clients in order to kind of land that messaging, land what you're trying to say and for it to land on their hearts. But most businesses that at least I deal with, because I am the furthest thing from a bro marketer, so those people don't go anywhere near me.
But the people who I do deal with, which is the people listening to this, they have a tendency to lean into like, when I will come out and very directly kind of be in a pain point for a moment, they're like, that's too negative. And I'm like, I feel you. I feel you, friend. So we, like so many of them, want to sit in that rather than in the pain point, allowing the pain point to subtly come through on their desires, their wants, their needs.
but in a way that is very compassionate and positive and like, this is what can happen rather than dwelling in the, this is the misery that is causing you to be on this page right now. So this is resonating so hard with my experience as a copywriter for now many years.
Barb Davids (05:41)
I think that also with the part that comes into my head around the copywriting is the urgency factor because in marketing it's it's a tactic the urgency it's it's it's a known tactic and it can work but I think people's behaviors and what they're looking for is changing and it's so when you do it from urgency it's more about trying to get them to do the thing but
Laura Kendrick (05:47)
Mmm.
Yes.
Barb Davids (06:08)
It doesn't really, puts it, it's like a false sense of urgency, I think is what I'm trying to get at. So a lot of times you'll see these things that people say, or like the hooks, right? Or the curiosity driven things. And sometimes they seem, YouTube titles do this a lot. This is what I was trying to get at. Like the examples from the YouTube titles are so urgent driven, or they're like, so this or that. And you, yeah. And, but they're so like, so.
Laura Kendrick (06:29)
They're pain point driven. Yeah.
Barb Davids (06:35)
immediate like if you don't drop everything you're doing right now everything is going to fall apart and I think it has to come with I'm exploring this more but like with our ego and our brain it has to do with it kind of defaults to the the scared part or the the scariness of if I don't do this then something's going to be wrong versus trying to come at it from the compassionate part and saying okay I see this and it's okay but here's a better way to do it or
Laura Kendrick (06:36)
Mm-hmm.
Barb Davids (07:04)
Here's maybe another thing to consider.
Laura Kendrick (07:06)
think that urgency still works for the unsophisticated buyer. But so many of us are working with people who are sophisticated buyers, especially when we're B2B businesses. We all understand the tactics at some level. We all understand the basics of marketing now. I always think when these kind of conversations come up, I think of the show Mad Men and how at one point, Don Draper
Barb Davids (07:11)
Mmm, that's a good point.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (07:34)
tricks his wife into buying the beer he wants her to buy by putting it in the same place in the ⁓ grocery store. And then for the dinner party, there it was, right? And then she was pissed that he manipulated her. But that's the thing. She was a very unsophisticated buyer and didn't see, couldn't see that this was a tactic. But now we all can. We understand the end caps in a grocery store. We understand the placement at eye level. We all are aware of these things.
And so it becomes where they become like you said, they just kind of feel icky when you use them. When you sit here and say, you you only have 10 seconds to buy this thing before the price goes up or, you know, I'm selling this program, but for every buyer, the price goes up like, bleh. It just doesn't feel good because I know what you're doing and that it's like, thanks. But there are ways of putting like more natural urgency that feels genuine and is like, OK.
Barb Davids (08:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (08:33)
That's fine, like I can get inside that kind of box. And it all, like you said, like I love the word that you're putting on this compassion. It is, and it's the same thing that we're talking about with this whole idea of hospitality. You're thinking of the other person at the end of it. Like you're selling to a human, not just a bank account where you're like, come on, put the money down, put the money down, I need the money. Like that's a crappy place to...
be buying into as the buyer to be like, wow, this person really just wants my credit card number and that's it. Like they don't care about me.
Barb Davids (09:06)
Exactly. And that's what we all want, right? Is to be seen. Like we have this problem and we want somebody to see it and help us fix it. And the people that are like screaming from the rooftops that I have this thing that you need right now, that tends to be the person who doesn't genuinely want to help you. They're more involved about selling their service versus trying to help you get to where you want to go. Generally speaking, this isn't always the rule, but
Laura Kendrick (09:08)
Right. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
No, but you're right. Those are the programs that don't think about the person. Like, I'm thinking about there were two programs I bought into, I don't know, since like 2020 when everybody was in learning mode. And both of them, interestingly, were run by like 20-something men. Like, some of the only things I've purchased from that group, probably as an adult, like ever, or at least in this space. And interestingly, like both of them had
very long recordings in the videos where they were like an hour, 90 minutes of them like teaching something. Like who has this kind of time? I've got two kids and a business to run. Like what are you doing? One of them was touting like the way you have success with this is like very like 5 a.m. club of like you just wake up at 5 a.m. You go to the gym for two and a half hours. You have breakfast and then you work until midnight and I'm like, hello, I have kids. This is not like it wasn't thinking about.
Barb Davids (10:07)
Right. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (10:27)
the people on the other end not being exactly like you, it was just thinking in a very selfish way of like, I'm delivering this program just how it's convenient for me to deliver it, not about the person at the other end of it. And that goes to marketing as well. When people are thinking about their marketing and all these pieces in a way of like, this is easiest for me. So this is what I'm gonna do and God help you.
Barb Davids (10:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly. And then I know that we all know about the no like and trust. And I think that is becoming such a bigger factor than it ever has because of the world that we're stepping into with AI and everything in the automation and how easy it is for people who are just sending out slot crap out there because they think it's an easy way to get money on the side because this is what everybody's telling them.
Laura Kendrick (11:02)
Mm.
Barb Davids (11:25)
And so I think by having the genuineness of us or the, I call, this is where I amuse myself, what I call the unicornness of you, like that's what sets you apart from other people. And you, it's just so much more magnetic for you and your business. And your whole purpose is to help people with the problem that they have. So that comes through a lot more when you can do it from that perspective.
And I will say when I started, I didn't see that because at the time I was really scared to market myself. I was scared to be on video like this. I was scared to do anything. I just was like, ⁓ I don't know if they're gonna believe me. I don't know if this is really right. Even though I knew in my head, I knew what I was talking about. But in the very beginning, it was very much like trying to get started and put all the stuff out there. Now I'm not saying you can't have those types of things.
they definitely have their place because like I use them all the time for people in my clients or just referencing to help people out. Like they're great like when somebody needs something. And nowadays I do things more from a, I put more, well I put more me in it basically. So like my examples of how I did things and I think it resonates better like having the examples and it's just so much more.
easy to market that way. Like I have had ideas up the butt now. Like I can do, I have so many ideas to do just because I've let go of the idea that my content has to be a certain way or that it's, you know, being driven from the fear perspective. Like I'm afraid that somebody's going to see it and tell me it's wrong or whatnot. When in reality, nothing's right or wrong, right? Everybody has their own perspective or they
they have a way of doing things. yeah, I, I know we joked a little bit about this earlier. I do believe there is a right and wrong in how doing some digital marketing. However, even though I believe it's right or wrong in a certain technical aspect for some things, there's always a way to do something differently. Like it just depends on your energy level. It depends on who you're talking to. It depends on what feels good to you. And I know everybody talks about alignment and all this kind of stuff.
But it's true, like some people are not gonna wanna do podcasting, some people are not gonna wanna do social. There's just a way that you wanna do it and where you think that your audience is. And that is still the case today.
Laura Kendrick (13:54)
And it has to strategically play into all the pieces. I think that's the part that people miss sometimes, where it's almost like a checkbox. Everybody says they have to do these things. So they start doing the things. But it's like, does it actually fit with your goals? Is this the right move for what you need? And the answer is maybe. I don't know, because I'm not looking at your business right this second. And even it's funny, because when I first started doing these big list building moves,
Barb Davids (13:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (14:23)
It was not the format or the kind of model that my business was. It wasn't actually serving to, for me personally, to build a business where people would buy from my email list. It was actually a vanity metric because that's what served where I was going. I needed a big list because of the things that I wanted to do and it was not about selling to my list. It was about being able to get to bigger platforms, bigger stages and in that moment,
Barb Davids (14:36)
Mmm.
Laura Kendrick (14:50)
It was actually strategically about getting to the hosts of those things, like getting access to those people and being able to support them. And that's a strategic thought process about why am I doing this, not just doing it just because, which is an interesting kind of shift. And I love how you're talking about this because it actually ties into another conversation in the summit that we are having with Jasmine Jante, where
Barb Davids (14:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (15:17)
in that conversation talking about how if we build these relationships, you're actually, instead of having these people, which by the way, those two programs I bought into, only bought once, never bought again, like unsubscribed, get out of my world, like no, these are not people for me. But if we build these things and this marketing and our offers with our ideal client in mind, and we actually build it to their needs and how they function in the world.
What happens is we build like recurring, like they're gonna come back. They're gonna keep buying from us. They're also going to tell all their friends about it. It becomes this like, this kind of cycle that is so lovely. So instead of having to work really hard for one sale in perpetuity, you get to work to build long-term relationships that just feels damn better.
Barb Davids (16:08)
Definitely. I mean, I know I feel better now than I did in the beginning because I can feel that people, the, how do I put it? Like their energy when I'm talking with them, I, okay, here's, let me start over with this. So there are people out there who think that you also should not give away your intellectual property or that you shouldn't help people.
Laura Kendrick (16:12)
Mm-hmm.
Barb Davids (16:31)
without doing it for a sale. And I do not subscribe to that whatsoever. I think it's just a terrible way to go at life. And there was a point one time when I was sitting in a networking group and I was, everybody got to go around and ask, do their ask. Like what's your one ask and how can somebody else help? And so everybody would offer up ideas or a solution or something to help that person, which was really, I love the format of it. I think it's really great.
Laura Kendrick (16:32)
Mm.
Barb Davids (16:59)
And it just was so interesting because everybody was like offering to, they wanted to get on some other platform or get more visibility or something. And I have a podcast and I was like, well, why don't you just come on the podcast? I'm happy to help out people who haven't been on before or like it's a platform that I feel good about having people on if that's what they're trying to do. And then somebody was kind of telling me, well, don't give that away for free. And I didn't understand like what that really
Why would somebody say something like that? Like it's first of all, it's mine. You can't tell me what the fuck to do with my thing. Like I'm finally over that side of my life. But the idea around hoarding all of your information when information in general is available is becoming such a big deal. Yeah, yeah. There's no way you can't know anything in a matter of seconds. It's a matter of
Laura Kendrick (17:48)
Yeah, we live in an AI world.
Mm-hmm.
Barb Davids (17:57)
You know, sometimes I think with with businesses now, it's more about who can help you decipher or discern the information because it's still not quite right. Like I can't figure out in a world where we would live, where we wouldn't want to question what AI is giving us. I mean, that's the whole point of Google. That's the whole point of search and having all this information available to us, having all the different things.
but having the idea around getting the experience from other people so that you can discern for yourself which way you want to go. That came out very vague, but hopefully that makes sense.
Laura Kendrick (18:31)
Yeah, I, no, it does because
I think there's an element of you can't, and this is something I stand on, like this is one of my soap boxes that I love to shout from, but you cannot copy and paste the template of somebody else's anything, emails, offer, funnel, anything, just, just.
like slap it on your business. It just doesn't work because you are like, sure, it might get you a few steps ahead, but it's not gonna work long-term because your offers are different, your audience is different, you are different, the way you communicate is different. All the things are different. And when you start to play in that nuance, that's where you're really starting to dial it up to these notches where most of us are trying to play in, where it's like, okay, where's that next like big thing? Like, of course.
The barrier to entry is way lower than it's ever been before. And we can make those huge strides to get to kind of middle ground way faster, but to get to the higher ground in a sustainable way that feeds us feels good, feels like the company you want to run for the people you want to serve. That gap needs to still be bridged by the nuance of human like strategy, brains, help, support. That can't be done.
Barb Davids (19:24)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (19:48)
with AI because I mean, how many times have you gone into AI and been like, help me do this thing. And it's like, yeah, here's the thing. And it's like, were you listening?
Barb Davids (19:56)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (19:58)
talking to right now? Like it misses
the mark sometimes and if you can't see it you can't see it. So I think you're right like we still have there's still a place for the humans in all of this and it's coming from I love that you're talking about that it's coming from this place of compassion rather than fear I think that's so interesting and so spot on.
Barb Davids (20:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (20:21)
Barb, this has been such a fun conversation. I love it. And I think it's going to spark a lot of ideas. It sparked a bunch of ideas in my brain, and I'm sure it's going to spark a lot for the listeners. As we kind of shift out of it, where can people find you if they want to kind of keep thinking and connect with you?
Barb Davids (20:38)
So the easiest way is probably go to compassdigitalstrategies.com. That's my website. I'm also active over on Instagram showing how I amuse myself sometimes. So that's Compass Digital Strategies. And I also have a podcast called The Small Business Marketing Sweet Spot. And if anybody wants to connect with me on Instagram, I'm happy to just chit chat and talk about anything but business if they would like as well.
Laura Kendrick (21:01)
I love that. That's refreshing. Amazing. Well, thank you so, so much for bringing your thoughtfulness to this conversation.
Barb Davids (21:08)
And thank you for having me. This was a wonderful conversation. I love chatting with you.
The Pattern Is the Problem (Not You).
How to Spot and Break the Marketing Bottlenecks Costing You Sales
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Carly Clark Zimmer is a life and leadership coach specializing in decision authority and behavioral change for high-performing women. Drawing on twelve years as a licensed massage therapist practice and nine years of coaching, she helps leaders dismantle inherited standards of proving perfectionism and internal criticism so they can build success without self-abandonment.
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⚡️5-Minute Laser Coach Custom GPT
⚡5-Minute Laser Coach is your soulful AI sidekick. Trauma-informed, wildly effective, and shockingly easy to use. It helps you cut through overthinking and self-doubt with one potent question at a time. Bonus: Personalize it with your Human Design and astrology to align your clarity with the cosmos.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Carly, Carly, Carly, I am so pumped that you are here. I'm just excited you're here, so hi.
Carly Clark Zimmer (00:15)
Hi, Laura. I'm so, we've already been giggling and laughing so much before we hit records. I'm delighted to be here and continue the conversation and invite everybody else along, because it's been really fun.
Laura Kendrick (00:20)
Bye now.
It is really fun. Okay, so the people need to know who you are. I know who you are, but will you do a little intro into who Carly Clark Zimmer is? Solid hour and a half.
Carly Clark Zimmer (00:38)
Okay, how much time do we have? No, I'm just kidding. Okay.
So the short version is I'm a life and leadership coach. do a lot of identity work with my clients. I've been at it a while. I'm going into my ninth year now of coaching and supporting people and really learning how humans tick and what gets in their way. And I think that's what we're going to talk about today.
Laura Kendrick (00:56)
Wow.
Heck yeah, heck yeah. Because when it comes to marketing, we let a lot of stuff get in our way. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing. ⁓ Yes. OK. So let's just jump in, because it is an interesting topic. So we're talking about the bottlenecks that we create for ourselves, which, and before I hit record, we had a great example that we all do it. We all try a platform, and then
Carly Clark Zimmer (01:12)
goodness do we ever.
Laura Kendrick (01:36)
something about it we don't like and then you know stop or I have a very love-hate relationship personally with Instagram. I am trying to lean back into the love but I definitely have there's a lot of like big gaps between posting things like that and I think we're all guilty of that in some capacity.
Carly Clark Zimmer (01:55)
We are, and I think before we go into this conversation about our behaviors and the bottlenecks and how we create them, it's really important to understand that the person is not the problem. The pattern is the problem. So because I've been at this so long, so much of what we're fed in the coaching industry and even online is like, there's something wrong with us that needs to be fixed. And it's become
so entrenched in our society that we open up Instagram, and I think we probably share this, one of the reasons I also have a love-hate relationship is like, oh my gosh, now I need this cream, and I need this for my cellulite, and I need this for my, and I meant to go post something, and all of a sudden I'm totally derailed in all the things that are wrong with me. So it's really important from my perspective.
What I teach people is you are not the problem. You are inherently whole and beautiful as a person. What our society has done is really like fed us that we are the problem and we're not. We have behaviors that get in our way, but you are not the problem. So first I just want to level the playing field there that I'm coming from that perspective. But when it comes to marketing,
Laura Kendrick (03:15)
I appreciate it.
Carly Clark Zimmer (03:20)
there are certain behaviors that can start to show up. And the reason we jump from platform to platform, or we might not stick with a strategy, is we haven't really gotten to the root of what that behavior is. So when I'm talking about behavior bottlenecks, it's a repeated pattern of behavior that shows up in a moment of friction. Right? So that
Laura Kendrick (03:46)
Mm.
Carly Clark Zimmer (03:48)
if I just stick with the Instagram example, instead of posting what I intended to post, I get sucked in and then I start to scroll and compare myself and then I might see other coaches out there and what they're doing and then I go back to my post and then I'm reworking my post. So I've totally gotten into this comparison, I'm not good enough spiral, which can be just one example of what a bottleneck is.
Laura Kendrick (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for lack of a better way, because I'm saying this because I'm not you and I don't have the insight, but it is a way of like shooting ourselves in the foot at times where it's instead of creating, excuse me, instead of creating that marketing machine that keeps going, that builds that, because that's how it works, that's how marketing works, is it?
it builds over time, it steamrolls, like the ball is rolling downhill and it starts rolling faster and faster and faster and faster and faster if we keep pushing the ball and pushing the ball. So when we don't show up, we're stopping that ball from pushing and then we have to start all over again or, you know, start at least a few steps back from where we would have been if we had kept on pushing. So I think it's a really interesting thing that you're talking about because we've all felt it.
and most of us know what it's costing us. But then it's like, how do we break that pattern? Asking for a friend.
Carly Clark Zimmer (05:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. you said something
absolutely asking for a friend. You said something so interesting is we've all felt it. So that's the place that I encourage people to start is what's the feeling that comes forward. For me, when I get into that, when I get sucked into that doom scroll comparison spiral, it's a sinking heavy feeling in my chest. And over time I've been able to tap into that.
Laura Kendrick (05:15)
Mm-hmm.
Carly Clark Zimmer (05:38)
And now I know that I'm getting sucked in. So the first thing that I teach people is let's get connected with the body cue. What is the trigger that's showing up in your body? And if you can start to connect with that, it's a really powerful interrupt moment, right? I'm feeling myself. And also physically, when I start to notice that I'm doing this for the listeners, like scrolling, when I notice that
Laura Kendrick (05:45)
Mmm.
Yeah. Your
fingers, yeah, flinging it up.
Carly Clark Zimmer (06:07)
It's a physical,
I'm like, whoa, get out of here. And so that's how I treat Instagram, right? It's like, no, I must stay so focused. And unfortunately it is designed to do the exact opposite. So that's the first piece in breaking it is get connected with the trigger and the body cue, right? Because then if we can just create that one to three second gap.
Laura Kendrick (06:29)
Mm-hmm.
Carly Clark Zimmer (06:34)
we have an opportunity to make a different choice and remember what we're doing and stick with our plan instead of getting totally derailed.
Laura Kendrick (06:43)
Yeah. Yeah. That's so good.
Carly Clark Zimmer (06:45)
And
I'm happy to give another example too, because I think this goes beyond social media. It also happens when these bottlenecks show up when we're serving our clients. They can show up when we're in our inbox, right? They show up in all kinds of places. When we're at a live event, when we see someone who's like, you know, more well known than us, and then we might go into comparison and I'm not good enough.
Laura Kendrick (06:47)
Please.
Carly Clark Zimmer (07:15)
Or even yesterday I was talking with a client about having her perfect intro line, you know, I help blah, blah with blah, blah, blah without blah, blah. And she has been so focused on trying to get that right that anytime someone asks her what she does, she, her body goes into total freeze mode.
because she's been trying to get it right and it hasn't landed. And so what we were working on yesterday is her just really recognizing that and then throwing that model out the door. Like it's just gotta go out the door. It's not working for you. We have to find a different way for you to talk about what you do. And then she was able to like right away come up with, I have this practice and.
Laura Kendrick (07:43)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Carly Clark Zimmer (08:09)
in like a much more natural way of introducing
what she does. So again, if we can just like tap into what that cue is, what's triggering it, what the body sensation feels like, and then take a moment to pause.
Laura Kendrick (08:14)
me.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I love that too, because you really tapped into, especially with that story about, almost for perfectionism story about the I help statement. Isn't that funny how we get stuck in the things of the shoulds where somebody says like, you have to have this thing, but it just doesn't feel good. Like you're talking about Instagram in one way. It's really funny because personally, I don't even scroll Instagram.
Like the whole thing of like, you're supposed to go on and engage. I'm like, you know, interact with your ideal clients and their pages and train the algorithm. And I'm like, but I don't want to. Like I scroll and it's like mine sadly is my feed for my work is so untrained that it's people I know personally who now I'm stalking them and ads and that's it. I'm constantly like, well.
Carly Clark Zimmer (09:04)
I'm gonna.
Laura Kendrick (09:18)
I engaged with six of Carly's posts yesterday, so now we're going deep. Suddenly I'm commenting on something that's six years old.
Carly Clark Zimmer (09:29)
But you know what, I kind of love that. And I'll share a little strategy that I started using on Instagram because I do love it. I do love to be able to connect with people and see their dogs and their families and all that. So I created a note in my phone that's just, these are the people I really want to stay connected with. And if I want to go on and engage in Instagram, I'm just clicking on their profiles because unfortunately,
Laura Kendrick (09:55)
Nice.
Carly Clark Zimmer (09:57)
my feet is probably a mess. Like it's not trained at all either. ⁓ But coming back to this bottleneck, there's one more piece that I wanted to bring forward to really help people start to understand what the root is, what the root can be. So if we go back to that Instagram comparison example, oftentimes,
Laura Kendrick (10:09)
Yeah.
Carly Clark Zimmer (10:22)
If we go on there, our intention is to post, we see someone else, we get derailed, and then what can happen is we might go back and rework that post for another 30 minutes or an hour. And then we get tired and then we have client calls and then we never end up posting, right? So what happens there is there's some sort of relief behavior of like, I'm still working on my business. I'm still working on my social media.
but nothing is ever going out. And this is a behavior that I've seen with some of my clients, right? Is let me go back and rework it. Happens more often with sales pages, I think. Like, let me go back and rework that sales page. I've seen. These are all just like real life examples, real live examples from clients and even myself, right?
Laura Kendrick (10:55)
Mmm.
Interesting.
for sure. I'm sorry, are you talking about my current website that's supposed to be being reworked for the last two years? Yeah.
Carly Clark Zimmer (11:19)
of that, like this used to happen to me with sales pages all the time is let me go check on someone's website or profile that really inspires me. I'm just going to get a little inspiration from them. Right. And then I go, and then I go into comparison and get totally derailed and then go back. And then the website doesn't publish for days, weeks, months, insert your experience.
Laura Kendrick (11:37)
Mm-hmm.
Carly Clark Zimmer (11:46)
So the relief behavior there is while I'm going back and I'm working on my website, so I'm still in quotes working on my business. So it's a low stakes way for me to feel productive, but the longterm cost is I'm not pressing publish or I'm not sending it to my list. So it creates this backlog of, okay, so I haven't put my new offer out there and now it's six months later and I keep reworking.
Laura Kendrick (12:03)
Yeah.
Carly Clark Zimmer (12:13)
So we get some sort of short-term relief when these patterns continue, but they're at the long-term cost. So the formula is we look for the body cue, we look for the thing that triggered it, and then what's our relief behavior based on that? Like, what are we doing to go and relieve a little bit of that tension? And there's all kinds of examples that I can share, but...
Laura Kendrick (12:37)
Yeah.
Carly Clark Zimmer (12:40)
It's that relief behavior that we actually have to sit in for those three seconds and say, okay, this is my opportunity to make a different choice here and press publish, send the email, post the post. And that's moving through resistance. Like, I'm sorry, it's not easy, it's hard, but it's getting your butt in the chair and staying focused, which again, in our modern society is so challenging.
Laura Kendrick (13:03)
Mm-hmm.
Yes it is. Yes it is.
Carly Clark Zimmer (13:11)
My husband
said he has ⁓ type 2 ADHD, which is like it just happened. I swear I have to coach him sometimes when he opens up his phone. I'm like, okay, you're checking the weather, you're going in, you're just checking for this one thing. Because it's so easy to just get derailed. But that's a bit of the formula is just, you know, choosing
Laura Kendrick (13:20)
Developed over time, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
Carly Clark Zimmer (13:40)
the replacement behavior and then practicing that. And over time it does get easier and it starts to become your natural habit.
Laura Kendrick (13:51)
Have you seen people through your practice when they put these things into place and they're able to move through this particular bottleneck, do you see that that bottleneck is eased and things start to move more clearly, yes? And then do new bottlenecks show up? Because I'm thinking about this idea. I remember it was a couple of years ago now. I was at some local ⁓ networking group and ⁓ a young
Carly Clark Zimmer (14:06)
Yes, definitely.
Laura Kendrick (14:21)
woman was there and she was like, I just started my business last week. And I was like, whoa, congratulations on actually showing up here. And she was talking to us and then what she was enunciating was imposter syndrome. And I gave her the name for it and then kind of explained to her like, it changes. Like it goes, like what you're describing goes away.
Carly Clark Zimmer (14:46)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (14:46)
It's not like
that, but in some ways we all kind of come up against it. Our new limitations, our new like, do I belong in that room? Can I have like, know, first it's a six figure business, then it's can I have a million dollar business? For some people it's even bigger than that. And it, I wonder with like the bottlenecks, does the goalpost kind of shift if you will? Like does the, does a new bottleneck pop up in a different place or do you find that when people clear them, they like kind of clear them?
Carly Clark Zimmer (15:12)
I'm pausing because my answer is like, yes and no. It depends. Like some of the work that I do with clients is called parts work. So it's based in internal family systems. And if, if we do a little bit of that work and you really start to understand what parts are at play and those parts were created when we're children in order to gain that acceptance and feel valued, right. And they could be perfectionists.
Laura Kendrick (15:17)
Okay, love it.
Carly Clark Zimmer (15:41)
productivity, I mean, it could be anything. So if someone does the parts work and they really start to understand those inherent parts that were developed when they were kids and they know how to work with them, they're going to have an easier time navigating, moving from what I would call like builder to CEO, which is an identity shift, right? You're moving from like the solopreneur doing everything into leading the team and you have to transition.
who you are in some regard, in how you lead. And so those parts of our identities, all of these parts can come up, right? And they can get really protective. So if you know how to work with those parts, you will have an easier time. If you don't know, then it's almost like the same bottleneck can repeat. Maybe you feel comfortable at the local chamber, but when it comes time to...
go to this big conference, all of sudden your imposter syndrome kicks up again. But if you know how to work with that part that feels like an imposter and you really know how to care for it, and that's what I teach, it's quite simple actually, it's just like caring for these parts that feel like they're not good enough, they're not smart enough. If we as adults learn how to care for our inner children, our inner parts, it becomes so much easier.
And it actually doesn't have to take years of therapy and tons of time. I mean, caveat there, of course, like everyone's unique and different, but you know, if you feel pretty fortified in your mental health and you have the capacity to do the parts work, it moves pretty quickly.
Laura Kendrick (17:07)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right. Right.
Amazing, It's because these kinds of bottlenecks, really are. So many of them are so internal, like we can address through learning and teaching and all the things, all of the mechanical bits. But it's always that like internal resistance. And I recall, I think it was, I don't know what it was, personally having like recognizing like there is a reason, like I can see this. I can see that there's a reason I'm not taking a leap.
Carly Clark Zimmer (17:39)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (17:53)
And I can't name it, I can't figure out what it is, but there is something, I am holding myself back, I see that, like I have all the information, I have all the skill, I can go. And I feel like so many of us get to that point in our own way. And we can often see that, like there's that resistance there. So I love that you're dialing this in specifically to like one area, because marketing is one where I actually have a client who they're,
is relatively new in the business. Like it's only a couple years old. It's quite successful. But it's funny when I I talk to them about like the visibility things, the collaboration things, like taking the marketing to the next level. They have the utmost resistance to like actually putting their names out there rather than kind of doing this guerrilla style that they've been doing that is much more like intimate. And I don't have to put myself like in this huge space.
And I've watched that over and over and over again with clients with their marketing where they just are not comfortable.
seeing themselves in that way.
Carly Clark Zimmer (18:58)
Absolutely, it's a very common thing when it comes to visibility because it's most likely a threat to some part of their identity. What if they don't accept me? As humans, as mammals, we need this. We need community, need belonging, we need acceptance. What if they don't accept me? What if I fail? How am going to look to everybody if I don't do a good job? This happens a lot with people who are making some sort of pivot.
Laura Kendrick (19:08)
Mm-hmm.
Carly Clark Zimmer (19:27)
Right? They're going to see me in this new way and what if it doesn't work out and then I'll lose all my credibility, right? These are high stakes things for our identity. So of course there's protective mechanisms that are at play. And again, that's why I started the conversation with like, you are not the problem though. Like what, what we've done as a society is we have attached that to mean it's us instead of it's my business.
It's my offer. It's my sales page, right? It's like we have to remove ourselves a little bit from that because you as a person, right? We, you are inherently whole. So if we can just start to detach a little bit from making it mean so much about who we are and our worthiness and are we going to be accepted and are we going to fail and what is that going to mean? We can take a lot more risks and that's what business is all about.
Laura Kendrick (20:23)
Yeah.
Yes. And isn't it funny where we're willing to take risks and not? And it's like, this is exactly what you're talking about. Our own personal bottlenecks coming from all the things of being human.
Carly Clark Zimmer (20:36)
Exactly. And we're
all, we're all out there trying to do this stuff. So I think that's also really important to remember.
Laura Kendrick (20:43)
Yes, that the person that you have on a pedestal as being whatever version of successful you have. I'm actually thinking in particular about one of the larger pedestals in our world and somebody sharing that they had a personal interaction with that person and talking about their perfectionism and how, like even in a small moment, like it had to do with like a thread on a shirt or something. And just like, we all are walking through our own humanity.
Carly Clark Zimmer (20:47)
Thanks.
Laura Kendrick (21:12)
and walking through our own bottlenecks. So yeah, we're all human. Yeah.
Carly Clark Zimmer (21:17)
Absolutely, and it's just important to remember that it's not the whole picture. I mean, we all know this, but today I put makeup on and like did my hair, but yesterday I was like a mess in a ball cap and like hadn't showered in two days because I'm going into a launch. it's, it's not the whole picture, right? And I think that's just a really, it reminds me how much we need community. We need conversations. We need to be transparent about.
Laura Kendrick (21:23)
Yeah.
for sure. For sure.
Carly Clark Zimmer (21:47)
stuff and ⁓ yeah. Also I just wanted to mention one more thing before we wrap up. You know not every bottleneck is behavioral and I think you mentioned this actually so it's important to check for is the bottleneck a missing skill like copywriting? Is it a missing strategy? Have I not landed on a strategy that actually feels like authentic to what I want to do? Is it a
space issue, do I not have space on my calendar? Maybe that's the bottleneck, right? So it's also important to walk through skill, space, strategy. And if we're still, if we have all of those things figured out, but we're still not moving forward, then it's probably behavioral, right? Some sort of habit. It's the pattern. It's not you, it's the pattern.
Laura Kendrick (22:31)
then it's you, it's a you problem.
This is why I'm not a therapist. My quippiness would get me in trouble.
Carly Clark Zimmer (22:41)
You
Laura Kendrick (22:45)
⁓ Carly, thank you so much for this conversation. It's really interesting and something I think we all need to sit with and think about a heck of a lot more. I know I'm going to. Before we go though, will you share maybe a place or two or any number of places where the people can find you?
Carly Clark Zimmer (23:03)
Sure, so come on over to Instagram and be patient with me if it takes me a little bit to get back to you. As I'm scrolling, as I'm working through my own bottleneck. No, but really, like you don't have to go through this alone. So as you're thinking about it, if you want to share anything that's coming forward, if you're starting to recognize your own bottlenecks and you're not quite sure, come over. I love to be in community and meet people. So come on over to the DMs and Instagram.
Laura Kendrick (23:09)
as you're scrolling.
Carly Clark Zimmer (23:33)
and let's chat about it.
Laura Kendrick (23:35)
love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here.
Carly Clark Zimmer (23:39)
Thanks for having me. This is a blast.
Laura Kendrick (23:41)
Yay!
Stop Leaving Money Inside Your Own Program.
The Ascension Strategy Hiding in Your Curriculum
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Jasmine Jonte is the founder and CEO of CRE8TION, where she helps top experts turn their knowledge into transformational, revenue-generating programs. She began as a 1st-grade teacher in one of Detroit’s lowest-performing schools, where she learned to make complex ideas simple and engaging. In the online business world, she saw creators struggle with learning design, not expertise, and built CRE8TION to solve that gap. Her Course Flow to Cash Flow™ Method blends instructional design with business strategy to make programs powerful and profitable. Jasmine and her team ghostwrite courses end-to-end, from scripts and slides to workbooks and portals, so clients can stay in their zone of genius. Over six years, she has produced 120 programs and 1,500 lessons for 100,000+ students, generating millions in revenue for leaders like Candy Valentino, Nick Bradley, SUCCESS Enterprises, and Thought Leaders Institute.
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CourseFlix: The AI-Powered Program Experience Upgrade
97% of programs go unfinished — not because the content is bad, but because the experience is. CourseFlix is an AI-powered strategist that gives you personalized Netflix-inspired strategies to make your program binge-worthy, boost retention, and turn clients into raving referrals. Better experience. Better results. Less marketing effort.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
⁓ Jasmine, I'm excited you're here!
Jasmine Jonte (00:11)
Hello,
Excited to be here.
Laura Kendrick (00:16)
All right, this is just going to be such a juicy topic. I love it. ⁓ But before we dive in, can you tell the people who don't know who you are but really should know who you are just a smidge about you?
Jasmine Jonte (00:28)
So I come from a teaching background. taught in the lowest performing school in the country in Detroit, Michigan. know. ⁓ Yeah, no real, real, real, real, like real, real. ⁓ And I love my kids. The kids were never the problem. It was just the environment was really challenging to be in. So moved into business, spent some years figuring out what is business and ⁓ landed late 2019.
Laura Kendrick (00:33)
You and me both. no shit, really?
Jasmine Jonte (00:57)
inside of the agency that we have now, which is a done for you program design and development agency, which includes ⁓ working with experts to extract their wisdom into both curriculum and client experience that surrounds that curriculum. So essentially, how do we develop programs that leverage our expertise so we can stop trading time for money but still get people results? That's the big goal.
Laura Kendrick (01:24)
I love it. Sign me up. Let's do it. I mean, really. ⁓ Okay. So let's jump in to this whole idea of the fact that the way you see it is your program is your marketing.
It's like light bulbs.
Jasmine Jonte (01:45)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (01:47)
And I think I know where you're going with this, and I'm right on board running next to you. But let's dive in. What do you mean by that? Your program is your marketing.
Jasmine Jonte (01:58)
You know, we're all like based on, our businesses are built on our reputation. And so when you do a good job, people are going to tell other people about you, which is going to get you more clients. Like at the highest level, right? So there's three ways to grow a business. There's more leads, there's average, like, or more clients, I should say, like getting more clients. ⁓ Second is increasing the average transaction value that someone spends with you.
which is why like checkout sequences, upsell, downsell, flows, funnels, like all that is exciting because if we engage with someone over that funnel, they're gonna end up spending more money with us. And third is this little number called lifetime value, which is how much does a client spend with you over their lifetime being a client? And you know, in our world of like online experts, a lot of people hail earnings per lead as like the number one metric.
which is, you you know all about this. It's a launch number. It's a launch KPI. If I have a thousand people on my list, how much for this offer, how much am I going to earn per one of those thousand people? Which is great launch metric, but in today's day and age with AI and just the ways that things are shifting in personal brand, I would argue that LTV lifetime value is really the sustainability indicator in a business. So
Laura Kendrick (03:08)
Mm-hmm.
for sure. For
sure.
Jasmine Jonte (03:26)
There's a lot of ways to do that. One, like foundation is just don't put out crap programs. I mean, I can't be any more blunt than that. You know what I'm saying? But like we've all bought them. Like we've all bought them. We've all logged into a program and been just so disappointed. And like, don't do that, number one. And then number two is actually get strategic about how you are, your customer journey to take someone from their first purchase
Laura Kendrick (03:37)
That's like the mic drop.
Jasmine Jonte (03:55)
into subsequent purchases.
Laura Kendrick (03:57)
Yeah, yeah. It's, ⁓ yeah, I mean, you're talking about a sustainability metric. I don't think there's a better one for how long people stay in your orbit and honestly, like, you know, keep you fed in the roof over your mouth and the roof over your mouth. That was weird. ⁓
Jasmine Jonte (04:16)
understood it. I understood it. My brain translated it.
Laura Kendrick (04:20)
Yeah.
We're speaking the same weird language. so yeah, okay. And I love that, like we're talking about this like foundational thing, don't put out crap programs. So what does that mean though? Because that's so subjective, but also I feel like so many of us, anybody who's put out any kind of course or program or offer of any kind, this is something that we battle in our own language of like, will this land?
Is this effective? What problem does this solve? We're all talking about the same thing. We're trying not to put a piece of garbage out into the world. We're trying to put something out that actually does the thing we want it to do and connects with the people and all the things. So what does it mean to you to not have a crap program put out there?
Jasmine Jonte (05:03)
There's a lot of like fun strategies and hot tips and tactics we could go into, but the root of it is know your client and know what they need and give them that, but as simply and easily as possible. like, like more is not more in the world of content. It's not about all the stuff that you know, nobody cares. I mean, like real talk.
Laura Kendrick (05:22)
Yeah, I think that last part is key.
Jasmine Jonte (05:32)
If you are an expert who's teaching what you know, once they've actually bought, they do not care about you anymore. They just bought to get themselves a result. so if it wasn't already all about the customer and the client, now it really needs to be all about the client. So rather than putting your four hour, eight hour, however long program together, well, nowadays most ideal clients want something shorter.
Laura Kendrick (05:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jasmine Jonte (06:00)
If you can teach it, if you can find a way to be strategic and teach it in 45 minutes, don't make it three hours long. And that like skill of learning how to simplify and condense information. One, it's a skill. It's called instructional design. Like you can learn it. You can hire people to do it for you. That is what we do. Part of what we do. But the other side is like just doing the reps. And I think a lot of times people productize too early because they want to get out a trading time for money. And so they're like,
Laura Kendrick (06:05)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Jasmine Jonte (06:28)
Well, I've taught three people, I'm just gonna go and like put it in a program and then people aren't getting results and they're wondering why and it's because they didn't hire an instructional designer and they don't know their client adequately enough. They haven't done enough reps with someone one-on-one or in a group format to really turn it into a training.
Laura Kendrick (06:44)
my gosh, you're like making me question all of my life right now. No.
Jasmine Jonte (06:48)
Like, I'm sorry you're welcome. don't know how to respond to that.
Laura Kendrick (06:53)
No, but I think you're
right. It's just, yeah, there's so many pieces to it. Like there have been things I've seen clients do, there's things I've done. And I think that, the thing that I think is most important also is that if you can make it short or do, you want it to be as actionable and really giving them that win as possible. I so often sit with this with clients when writing copy for them where they're trying to share all of their genius and brilliance and I'm like,
hate to tell you they don't care. Nobody cares. Everybody's out here doing the best for themselves. And you like spending 10 pages, like nobody's going to read that. So really, it's about boiling it down. It like actually flashes me back to undergrad. My advisor was, I remember him saying, like, if you can write it in three words instead of 300, then do it. And I'm like, granted. Let's go.
Jasmine Jonte (07:49)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (07:49)
And it
makes perfect sense. we, I mean, actually even honestly, just a few minutes ago, I was climbing out from under a pile of emails in my inbox and reading an email from somebody who I deeply respect, love, they're amazing, funny, like just love the hell out of her. But I almost never read all of her emails because they are so long winded. So I am full on skimming looking for what I need. And that's the case.
with all the things, when you get that huge, huge course, it becomes daunting. Like, where do I start? I really just need this win. Like, why I bought this course, I just, need it as fast as possible. So I love that you, like, are throwing that out so, like, intentionally.
Jasmine Jonte (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, absolutely. the other piece is the support structures around. This is part of client experience, but we've got group calls, we've got asynchronous support, we've got communities, we've got all of these things and really aligning the support structure with what your client wants. And right now, I speak in general terms, because again, it really depends on who your client is.
Laura Kendrick (08:43)
Yeah.
Jasmine Jonte (08:56)
I've worked with audiences of 70 and 80-year-olds. They want something different than my Gen Z audiences, like they just do. But if we talk in a general fashion here, for probably most of the people listening to this, people are steering away from weekly standing appointments on their calendar for Q &A. They're steering toward asynchronous support that meets them where they are with the way that the world is speeding up. It's just getting faster and faster, especially with AI in the last 18 months.
Laura Kendrick (09:17)
Hmm.
Jasmine Jonte (09:25)
Even though we feel like we can make progress faster somehow, our calendars are more full than ever. And so we just, and especially with AI, we want the answer when we want it. We don't have the patience to wait until Friday's group call. So keep that in mind ⁓ because some people would say, but my time is valuable. My experts would think, but having time with me, they would get to understand
my experience and they would get to Q &A with me and they think that that's the value, but it's not. The value is the result. So what's the fastest way for them to get to the result? That's the value.
Laura Kendrick (10:07)
Yeah.
When you're talking about the asynchronous ⁓ version of that, what does that look like in your mind? Like, I have an idea, but I'm curious what that looks like to you, who's actually steeped in many versions of this.
Jasmine Jonte (10:20)
Yeah, it can look like a lot of things. ⁓ It can be a channel in a community. It can be a voxer chat. It can be having an emergency call twice a quarter where as a part of the program, you get to book an emergency call and you talk to someone on faculty at the organization that you've bought this program from within two days or 24 hours or whatever. It can look like a lot of things.
And that's where I'd come back to know your ideal client. What channels are they already using? See if you can enter their world rather than making your own community on go high level that nobody wants to log into. ⁓ You know what saying? And part of this is when we think about platforms, if your clients are in communities that are largely on school, then that's a reason why you might want to look at school versus
If you have a clientele where most of your clients are on Circle, like for instance, I'm in like three solid Circle communities. So when someone else is like, we have a Facebook group, to me, it translates to, dang, that's going to be a lot of work for me to get the value out of this group because I'm never on Facebook. So, you know, all of these things we just have to consider through the lens of what's the ideal client? If they want async support, great. What's the perfect kind of async support for them? And honestly, just to like ask them, I don't know, you know, like
Laura Kendrick (11:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel the same way.
Jasmine Jonte (11:41)
Call your clients.
Laura Kendrick (11:43)
you seeing
a need or a want of people inside of these programs and communities? And granted, I know it depends, of course, but for community inside of it?
Jasmine Jonte (11:55)
⁓ yes, I'm seeing that uptick a lot, but keep in mind that most of us really only have capacity to be deeply involved in like three communities. So if it's an ongoing evergreen container,
Laura Kendrick (12:07)
Mm-hmm.
Jasmine Jonte (12:12)
Just have that in mind. Is what you're creating for that ideal client something they would put in their top three groups that they need to be a part of to get the results they're looking for in their life? ⁓ It's a little different. It's a little different if it's like we have a 90-day accelerator and there's a community that's a part of it. That's a little easier lift for people to get involved with over the course of the 90 days, especially if you have your client communication structure set up correctly. ⁓ But yeah, just.
Laura Kendrick (12:25)
That was good.
Jasmine Jonte (12:42)
three? Are you one of the top three? Ask yourself that question.
Laura Kendrick (12:47)
As you said that I did did inventory of my own communities and like, you're so right. Like they're, you're right. I'm active in three. All the other ones are like pulling teeth. Everyone's in a blue moon. show up or I show up for like a stint and then I'm, gone, like ghost them for months on end. yeah, yeah. So good. But yeah, there was a lot of conversation. mean, now the way things move ages ago, like even last year, people were talking about community and I've thought of that inside of my own.
programs that as you were talking about like one-on-one calls, it's funny because like the Q &A aspect is not something I'm ever searching for or not often searching for as a participant in communities like this or in programs like this. But I am often searching for that like connection. So like if there's a way to actually have that and I know that's totally just my brain, which is not everybody's. So I was just curious about that because
There really was so much conversation about building community. I guess it kind of started like three years ago instead of just these like, you know, like what was it? The old masterminds where there was no community. It was just like getting the hot seat and listen to the person and it was less about the network.
Jasmine Jonte (13:55)
Which like...
Yeah, communities are interesting because you're right, different people come for different things. And so you have to be able to meet everyone where they're at with what they might need. So if you're looking for connection, well, having a protocol almost for members to connect to one another, teaching them how to connect with one another, creating, I mean, like I'm thinking in one of our communities, it's a tarot education community. And they have a couple of, yeah, it's very fun. They have a couple of certification programs.
Laura Kendrick (14:27)
fun.
Jasmine Jonte (14:31)
Our most recent, which we spearheaded last year, had 85 % completion rate on actually getting certified. Very proud. It's like my most proud thing this month. ⁓ And so part of that is in those certifications, there's opportunities for peer practice and peer connection that the faculty, we don't even facilitate that as a part of that team. It's just like pure space for them to collaborate and connect. And they do that.
Laura Kendrick (14:36)
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Jasmine Jonte (15:00)
Also, we have a matchmaker system where if someone can come in and say, I want to request a reading or I want to ⁓ provide a reading, it's automated where they can submit it, it goes out to the community and people connect that way. So it's considering the subject matter, what skills are they trying to develop, and then just creating a system for them to connect with one another. Yeah. And then masterminds, it looks way different in mastermind groups.
Laura Kendrick (15:30)
Yeah. Okay, so how do you connect this though to the LTV? So how does somebody coming into a program and having this amazing experience getting these wins, how does this build to that long-term value that they're kind of building?
Jasmine Jonte (15:31)
It's a lot to think through.
Well, if we think about LTV, there's repurchases and there's referrals. Like both of these play into LTV. If we think about repurchases, there are groups that I'm in, not because I need the content that the group provides, but because I have friends there.
Laura Kendrick (16:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jasmine Jonte (16:07)
So community can be a driver for repurchases, especially like masterminds, higher ticket groups, is you want to be surrounded by the people who are running the same race as you. And often you learn a lot more from your peers than you do from the founder or the figurehead. So that's one piece ⁓ is connection can lead to repurchases. The other side is referrals. If you do a really good job connecting people, well,
Laura Kendrick (16:24)
Yes.
Jasmine Jonte (16:37)
If I, you know, like we're in a group together called the Mixer Mind, and I've referred a few people to the Mixer Mind, even though it's not even open, because I get to look like the hero. You know, like I am serving the Mixer Mind community, and I'm also serving this new, this other peer colleague friend of mine. I get to add value to both of their lives. And any time that they think about the value they're getting from the group, they're going to sink it back to me.
because I'm the one who introduced them to it. So for instance, Jordan Gill is who introduced me to the Mixer Mind. And being here today with you, I'm thinking about her. Because if it weren't for her, I wouldn't be here with you. So again, LTV, we've got repurchases and we've got referrals. Community, when done right, creates both of those.
Laura Kendrick (17:16)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. There was something you said that triggered something in my brain and now I'm, like I just kept listening and I didn't. Like flag it as like, that's something to think. Yeah. Shoot. I mean, it's great I was listening. Terrible that I lost it. ⁓ Shit.
Jasmine Jonte (17:40)
Didn't know I was hypnotizing.
Laura Kendrick (17:49)
Totally gone.
you were talking about building the referrals. I'm so curious about, because of course, and I've seen it done a million different ways, and it's always a thing, but inside of a program, how do you build in elements like that that help you, and actively, because I think that's a mistake that a lot of us make early on, that we just honestly, we don't ask for the things. We assume that people will leave the glowing testimonial,
Jasmine Jonte (17:53)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (18:18)
We feel like ⁓ a plot's asking for somebody to refer us or asking to buy again. And it's like, no, people actually need to be asked. So how do you kind of make that leap in a way that feels really good inside of these programs?
Jasmine Jonte (18:36)
So there's two parts, right? There's the repurchases and there's the referrals. If we think about repurchases inside of curriculum, so not inside of client experience, but just inside of curriculum, there's like a bunch of ways where you can plant the seed for the next thing that they could or might buy without being...
Laura Kendrick (18:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jasmine Jonte (18:55)
pushy or overwhelming or feeling like you're sales lead. Because remember, it's just an invitation. And when you do your program correctly, they're going to get the results, which means when they get the result, a new problem is unlocked, which should be solved by your other programs. Right? Like that is how Ascension models work. ⁓ you know, like just to give you a couple ideas, one of my favorite ones, which no one really talks about is leveraging client success stories actually inside of your program.
Laura Kendrick (19:25)
Mmm.
Jasmine Jonte (19:26)
And when you're doing it, like for a teaching point, because we gotta get our clients to buy into anything we're telling them to do. We have to be persuasive, not just teachers, but persuasive teachers. So when we consider, this is my teaching point. I'm gonna tell a story about Laura. She was my client. She went through this program last year, but then Laura joined my mastermind as well. So I'm gonna tell Laura's story and I'm gonna speak to the point of when you do this thing, you're gonna get results just like Laura did.
And you're going to be, you you're to have such great results that you're eventually going to have this problem and need to join the mastermind, you know, and I'm off the cuff here, right? So it's a little, you got to smooth that out a little bit more than that. But ⁓ that's like one of the easiest ways to plant the seeds. Your future pacing them is like the technical term for it. OK, so that's one. ⁓ And then, you know, I'll also just say. That. Any kind of opportunity inside of.
Laura Kendrick (20:06)
Right, right, right, right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jasmine Jonte (20:25)
the tech platform. like on Thrivecart, for example, you can have your product library. Anything that's bought is highlighted and everything that's not is grayed out. So anytime they log in, it's just a reminder of like, yeah, she's got other stuff to support me. ⁓ And then custom GPTs. Everybody's doing a custom GPT, but nobody has trained their GPT on how to upsell.
Laura Kendrick (20:33)
gray.
Mmm.
Jasmine Jonte (20:46)
It's like, man, such a missed opportunity. So if you're doing any kind of AI tool, make sure the AI tool doesn't just know your content, but they know what are the moments to activate someone to potentially opt in for another purchase. ⁓ So yeah, so that's like some of the curriculum pieces for free purchases. To answer your original question around referrals, I think that...
Laura Kendrick (20:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jasmine Jonte (21:14)
leveraging survey data is the easiest way to do that. I think that you should have survey data. This is what we install with all of our clients. Multiple points in the journey, we're asking them feedback about their experience. And the feedback can be tied to the curriculum, but I also like feedback tied to group coaching calls or facilitated sessions or master classes, like whatever's included in the offer, you should be getting feedback about all of those offer elements. And
when they say certain things, that should cue you to ask for a referral or introduce them to your affiliate program or share would you be a client story on ask for a testimonial, do an interview that they can share to their audience. I think it's just best done that way and it's usually pretty streamlined as well, which is why I like it. But what about you? Do you have a favorite?
Laura Kendrick (22:09)
Yeah.
Jasmine Jonte (22:12)
way to ask for referrals. Inside of programs.
Laura Kendrick (22:15)
remember
to ask that's the biggest thing no
Jasmine Jonte (22:18)
Yeah, fair.
Laura Kendrick (22:20)
No, think it's like you were saying, and in all of these ways where it's kind of subtly paved in there. So it's just kind of in your mind. So when the ask comes, it's like, yeah, duh. That's my favorite thing. I was actually just talking to somebody today on a call in our kind of just shooting the shit in the beginning where we were talking about, I just watched the movie Nuremberg. And I was saying how I liked the thing I liked the most about
the movie as a whole is that it allowed you, it had subtlety to it. So it allowed you to like make the leaps on your own without, you know, slapping you upside the face and being like, look, and pointing an arrow from like point A to point B. And that is something that I just so appreciate. And I appreciate it in business too, where there's, there's the breadcrumbs as you were talking about, where there's the client stories, which I've always done that, but I like how you're talking about like you're actually peppering in the Ascension.
into the client story. Like that's a different level that I have not personally in my own like keynotes and whatnot. I have not added those in, but I will. But I also like that I've seen and I've done and I've helped clients do where like what you were talking about where we're kind of pointing towards that next thing where it's like here's a like I'm just kind of opening the door so that you can see like this is part of what you need to do.
But if you need to dig in deeper, this is where you want to go in order to like really dive into that and bring that to life if that's in need of yours. So that when you kind of get that email or you see that link at the bottom, you're like, oh yeah, I'm going to click that versus just a random link at the bottom that you're like, what the hell is this? Like, why would I click this? So yeah, I'm a huge fan of the kind of like that narrative and subtle journey that leads to when the overt ask is made.
It just feels good rather than not.
Jasmine Jonte (24:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (24:22)
Okay, so we could like, I feel like we could live here and we should. Let's just do that one day. Let's see how long of a recording we can make.
Jasmine Jonte (24:26)
We could.
I will refer you back to the beginning of our conversation when we said we want to keep it as short as possible.
Laura Kendrick (24:34)
See if people actually listen.
Damn, gotta listen.
Way to loop back around. Love it. ⁓ OK. Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much. This was such a great conversation, so enlightening. And it's just so good. It's got all the wheels turning in my head, which is my favorite kind of summit combo. So thank you for being here, and thank you for lending your voice. But before we go, where can people find you?
Jasmine Jonte (25:05)
best place to find me is our website, which is creation.co. has an eight in it. I do share on YouTube, so that's like my anchor content. But yeah, best place is to check out the website and you can always book a call with me from there.
Laura Kendrick (25:20)
Love it, I love it. Well, thank you so much, Jasmine.
Jasmine Jonte (25:24)
Thank you.
Stop Doing More.
The Structural Shift That Lets Solopreneurs Actually Show Up Consistently
-
Rosemary Dede is a holistic business coach passionate about helping female entrepreneurs redefine success on their own terms. She believes in creating businesses that align with personal lifestyles, values, and visions. Tired of the grind culture? So is Rosemary! She combines her love for intentional living with practical business strategies to empower women ready to build thriving, purpose-driven businesses without sacrificing their well-being.
As a homeschooling mother of three, Rosemary doesn’t subscribe to the myth of work-life balance, instead, she focuses on work-life harmony. This principle is at the heart of her coaching practice and personal life. Her mission is to help women create businesses that enable them to thrive in all aspects of life, free from the stress of burnout or the relentless hustle.
Rosemary is also the host of the Balanced Business Formula podcast, where she shares actionable strategies, real-life stories, and expert interviews to inspire female entrepreneurs to create intentional, values-driven businesses and lives. -
Feeling busy but stuck? This self-guided audit helps you see exactly where your business is leaking energy and what to fix first. Work through the Balanced CEO Framework, identify your biggest bottleneck, and walk away with a clear starting point. No fluff. Just clarity.
-
Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Rosemary, rosemary, rosemary. I am so excited you're here.
Rosemary (00:13)
Yeah, I'm super excited. I've been really waiting for this conversation to happen. So I'm happy we're finally doing this.
Laura Kendrick (00:20)
I know, I know. Okay, before we jump in, share with the people who don't know who you are but really should know who you are. Just a little bit about yourself.
Rosemary (00:29)
Yeah, I would love that. So I am a holistic business coach. And when I say that is because my approach is really, I don't see it as business and life separate, but I like to bring the two together. And so I help high achieving entrepreneurs build and scale aligned, sustainable businesses without burning out. Because I believe that having a business shouldn't mean that you should burn yourself to the ground. Even though I have done that many times myself.
Laura Kendrick (00:57)
Me too. ⁓
Rosemary (01:00)
So yeah, I focus really on mindset, lifestyle, design and structure within your business and help my clients create a business that supports their life instead of running it.
Laura Kendrick (01:10)
⁓ so good. That's what we all need in life. So, yeah, I appreciate it. And yes, totally have gone into burnout, edge of burnout. The nice thing is once you've been there, though, you recognize the signs and it's like, but I love the setting it up so it doesn't happen to begin with. It's Goals. All right. So what we are talking about today.
Rosemary (01:23)
Exactly. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (01:36)
is really interesting, and it is about how your internal capacity plays into your marketing. And I think you are spot on that people don't talk about this enough. So my gosh, I can't wait for this conversation. So talk to me about this from your perspective. Just unpack it for us just a little bit.
Rosemary (01:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think when we look at our business as entrepreneurs, often when things don't work, we think, I'm probably doing something wrong with marketing, or my messaging is wrong, or my strategy is wrong. But often it's not that, it's maybe a capacity problem. And I would say most of the times it is. And it's your capacity, just wearing that marketing costume or whatever you think it is. And so we put all our efforts into fixing.
the strategy, the messaging, everything else, but actually the thing that needs the most fixing is what we ignore. And so I've worked with women who've had great messaging and still couldn't show up consistently. And it's not because they were lazy or what, but it's because their business was actually just draining them. so because they're the ones doing everything, they just ended up just being so tired that it leaked in everything that they did.
Laura Kendrick (02:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's yes. I actually have a firm belief that sometimes burnout is of course about capacity, of course, but there's another element of it's also about misalignment that if you have that misalignment that you just you set your own barriers of safety that make it so you can't show up. And all of those platforms, all the marketing things. And this is like one of my kind of like soap boxes I stand on.
Rosemary (03:00)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (03:17)
All the marketing things have their rules, yes. Like SEO works on consistency. Social media, works on consistency, but it also works on engagement. Like you have to show up in it. But if you hate it, you're not gonna do that. So it's not gonna work for you. So yeah, and I think that's amazing. And it's not something that people are thinking about enough that, yeah, there's strategy. Yeah, there's like all these pieces, but there's also.
Rosemary (03:19)
Mm-hmm.
Yep, yep.
Laura Kendrick (03:45)
especially as a solopreneur or running a very small team, what can you put out there? And no, you don't have to show up in all the places all the time.
Rosemary (03:53)
Yeah, yeah. And I love that you brought up the alignment because that's really a core point that I look at when working with my clients, even all the way in the beginning, because sometimes we create businesses and we're like, I really love this. But we didn't really think about, is this aligned with the lifestyle that I want? Not that I have now, but the one that I'm aiming for. And to give a quick example, I had a client once who is a wellness coach and she is also a yoga instructor. And she was like, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (03:57)
Mm-hmm.
Rosemary (04:23)
Where I see myself in the next five years is I want to have a studio and I want to have like a team of yoga teachers, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, sorry, looking at her and I said, well, that's interesting. Cause that doesn't seem very aligned with where you'd like to go from what I know. You told me you want flexibility and freedom. So how does that look when you have a brick and mortar studio that you need to go to where you need to train your staff and manage and all that. She's like, ⁓ wait, yeah. And so that's when you, what you have when you don't look at
Am I actually creating the type of business that I say I want, not based on what I have now, but what I would like to have? And if not, you have a chance to change things up. And many of, many times that exercise hasn't been done. And so you just keep running your business the way everybody else is doing it and doing things you think you have to do until you resent your business and you hate it, even though it's making money.
Laura Kendrick (05:18)
Yeah, you know what's amazing is that you and I look at our own fields in the exact same way. Because that example is exactly how I have dealt with so many clients who are looking at their marketing and saying, like, I'm showing up in this place. And it's like, well, why? Because that doesn't align with what you're aiming for. Like, if you have one-to-one clients and you like it that way and you only need like five a year, why are you trying to grow millions of people on Instagram?
Rosemary (05:32)
in
Laura Kendrick (05:48)
Like that you're, you know, burning yourself out for that goal, but wait, you know, like let's stop and think about this and actually build marketing that aligns with the path that you want to take and the business you actually want to build and how is it serving you. And of course, sometimes there are like these out of the box reasons why somebody is doing that. And that's fine if it's strategic and has a goal, but if it doesn't and you're just doing it for the shoulds.
Rosemary (06:14)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (06:17)
than same thing of like you're building a business that doesn't, it just doesn't make sense for you.
Rosemary (06:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's just like, because you said, you know, if you're using a strategy that's just misaligned, but and you also out of capacity, then the thing is it shows, it shows in the way you show up. It sounds a little urgent, a little desperate, a little, you know, a little too much. And so the best way I see it is it's like, you know, you have this beautiful jacket that you saw, but it's clearly too small for you. You know, you're trying to squeeze yourself into that.
Laura Kendrick (06:35)
Yes. People can feel the energy. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
You're holding
Rosemary (06:52)
you
Laura Kendrick (06:53)
on to that teenage shape.
Rosemary (06:55)
And it just shows, you know, can't even stretch your arms, honey.
Laura Kendrick (06:58)
Yes.
can't give a good aug anymore. Yeah, I totally hear it. That's such a good analogy there. And it's interesting because I love the trying to put on somebody else's coat too, because it just is not necessarily going to fit right. And it's not necessarily going to take you to that space where you want to go. I'm so loving this, especially because you're talking about alignment.
Rosemary (07:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (07:30)
and capacity and like those are the two factors that are hardcore headed towards burnout if they're not in line and I just love that you're talking about this whole thing because it is. It is something that we need to take into account because you really can't, especially as a solopreneur and even with AI, yes with AI you can do more.
Rosemary (07:39)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (07:52)
but you still can be spread thin. So like, why are you trying to show up in all the places or in all the way? Like what is the goal behind it? It's just, it's so good and it's something we really need to step back and think about what is your kind of solution to the problem, if you will? Like just kind of tipping into it. What is your thought process and how do you...
Rosemary (08:13)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (08:15)
align the capacity with the business. And I know there's a whole lot of, it depends, but like what are those first steps?
Rosemary (08:25)
Yeah, so I really like to look at structure and alignment before strategy. And so even when we look at just structure of your business, like what are you doing in your business currently? So I really like people to just brain dump everything. Like what do you do in your day to day in your business? What are some of the things that you do? So because once you see it, you're able to identify trends and see, okay, am I doing mostly things that are nice to have? Or am I doing the things that I actually have to do in my business?
Laura Kendrick (08:39)
Mmm.
Rosemary (08:53)
And in terms of alignment as well, like how do you feel doing certain things in your business? Is this aligned with the, you know, with your long-term goals? And if not, like again, if you don't make a list of all the things that you enjoy and how you'd like to show up, you won't be able to recognize any, you're just kind of running on autopilot. And so the first thing I like to do is let's just strip it all down. Instead of doing more, let's just stop. Let's do nothing actually. And just take a break and look at...
everything that I do in my business, everything, how I'd like to show up. Like I'm aiming to be, you know, an author. I want to publish a book or I want to speak on stages. That's kind of where I'm seeing the thing. So if so, once you look at everything that you're doing, well, is it kind of aligned? Is it linked to that? And is that like the biggest bang for your buck? Like that thing that I see on your list? Is it, does it take two more steps to get to where you need to be? Or is it like 10 steps behind?
Laura Kendrick (09:40)
Right, right.
Rosemary (09:51)
Because if it is 10 steps behind, there's a better shortcut to that. I'm not saying shortcuts because we need shortcuts for everything, but often the simplest way to get something, we avoid doing that. We kind of go around it because of limiting beliefs or whatnot. And so I really start with just like structure and alignment before we even get to strategy.
Laura Kendrick (09:56)
Yeah.
I love that. And yeah, as you should. It's, mean, just because I'm like seeing so many parallels with the way we work and I love it. I just adore it. It's the same thing. Like for, from my perspective, it's always starting with the same, like I call them different things, but it is the same thing of what is the business model? What is the, what are the offers? What are the audience? Like how is the income coming in? And then you have to like aim at that trajectory and pave the clearest path because we all.
Rosemary (10:29)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (10:42)
Most of the people listening to this are solopreneurs or like have some help, but it's like a VA. It's maybe a copywriter. It's maybe a social media, somebody posting your social media, but we don't have these, you know, Amy Porterfield sized teams. We don't have these multimillion dollar companies where we have lots and lots of employees and have like, you know, health insurance and 401k is folded in. Like we're just not there. So in that moment, the founders capacity
Rosemary (10:58)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (11:12)
really matters. So I love that. honestly, the funny thing is, though, is even the like Amy Porterfield sized businesses, being strategic about where the resources go is always important. Always.
Rosemary (11:25)
Yeah, yeah,
because the thing is everything works as long as you work it. But as you said, you mentioned earlier now with AI, you could do everything if you wanted to. the thing is, why would you? Why do you want to do everything? Because you need to at some point, I mean, I hope that's where everybody wants to get to, to be a specialist in your field and not just a generalist. And in order to be a specialist, you kind of have to focus and
Laura Kendrick (11:39)
Right. Right.
Rosemary (11:52)
deep dive into a lot of things and when we say your name or the name of your business, we kind of know, okay, this is what we're going for. But if you're everywhere, you're talking about everything, you're speaking to everyone, you're doing nothing basically. And I know it's hard because it's been hard for myself as well. We've heard that the focus on one offer, one person, one channel, but it's like, yeah, but someone else is doing this and...
Laura Kendrick (11:59)
Mm-hmm.
Rosemary (12:17)
That's kind of, need to think about, you know, what are some of the limiting beliefs? What are some of the things that make you want to copy other people's businesses? Like the strategy, like, but everybody says you should hop on Substack now. Like everybody has a Substack. Should I get on Substack? Well, should you? Do you have an email list? How do you get people into your world? And what's the best way that you build a relationship with them? Is that Substack going to increase that for you? Or is it going to be a side thing that's going to take your attention away? So I really like to look at
Laura Kendrick (12:24)
Mm-hmm.
Rosemary (12:46)
everything that you do may be something you can add down the line, but unless you've really find something that works for you and that is doing the heavy lifting when you're not on, it's not time to look at something else.
Laura Kendrick (13:01)
Yeah, yeah. And honestly, also comes to like, it has to lead to the business really finding some sort of success in some, whatever that like that kind of metric is for you. Cause like, I want to say, you know, a conversion or a sale or something like that. At the end of the day, that should be where it's leading. But sometimes there is a tangent, like strategic outside of that box thing and that's fine. But
Rosemary (13:11)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (13:30)
If it's not leading towards your revenue growth or your goals for the business in some capacity, why are you doing it? And you brought up Substack. And that's funny because I want to say I was an early adopter, but I wasn't. Substack has been around for a while. And it's changed in the last two and a half years. And the early adopters are very hateful of that, which is really funny. But I was an early adopter for a marketer to be on there.
And it's really funny because like it was the same thing. Like I got on there because I was like, OK, maybe this is new. I'm not the biggest fan of like Instagram and that. So maybe I'll try this. And I it was the same thing where it was like within a few months. It was like this doesn't feel great. I just it's just another place I have to show up and you have to show up in two avenues where you're creating these newsletters. But then you're also having to show up on the board as well to actually get people. And you can't schedule. So you have to like actually turn up every single day.
And also in the fine print, is things about like you're not supposed to sell in there. And I'm like, this is so interesting. And very quickly I was like, I had the same thing of like, this isn't doing anything for me. Like, no thank you. But that's a thing for me. And I do know people who are creating solid monthly recurring revenue there and it makes sense for them and they're doing their thing and they're like finding amazing growth there. Rock on.
Rosemary (14:39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (14:56)
But it didn't
Rosemary (14:56)
Yeah, totally.
Laura Kendrick (14:57)
feel in alignment for me. And having to show up seven days a week and post on a board and converse with people just felt like just another, like, my gosh, daily thing that was outside of my personal capacity to do. it was fledgling growth. You know, I think there were, it still exists. I should shut it down. But I think there's like nine subscribers, maybe 12. And I'm like, yay.
Rosemary (15:09)
Mm-hmm.
same.
Laura Kendrick (15:24)
Huge for me.
Rosemary (15:26)
Yeah. Yeah. And as I said, it works. Some people have made it work and it's kind of their main thing. But again, we always need to look at like the context, like what do they do? What's their business? What do they offer? Like, are they just a content creator or are they a coach? Because if you're a coach, there are different ways that you can reach your clients faster, better, you know, so.
I always, you know, I know a lot of people have, ⁓ what's the word I'm looking for? Like comparison, where you're constantly comparing your business with others, but you don't know the full picture. And so before you get sucked into that, just let's focus a little bit.
Laura Kendrick (16:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
yeah. yeah, think it's the stopping and asking yourself, starting with the question of why, where is this taking me, is so key to being sure that you're on the right path for you. Because I agree with you. is not, in my opinion, it is not possible to copy and paste somebody else's strategy, tactics, anything onto your business wholeheartedly.
we can pull ideas and like, you know, twist and turn them so they fit just right. But you really can't just take, like, I can't take Rosemary's business model, marketing strategy, messaging, all the things, and plop it on my business and expect it to fit. Even if I were, in the exact same lane, because you and I, at the end of the day, we are very different people. So, like, your words and messaging would just feel untrue coming out of my mouth.
Rosemary (16:52)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally.
Laura Kendrick (17:08)
It's
an interesting, like, I love the breaking of the shoulds and just kind of taking all of the tips and the kind of, what are the people doing, of course? What are the shifts in the markets? What is happening? And making it your own. And sometimes that involves saying no. And sometimes that involves doing it your way and just kind of, you know, being your little rebellious self, which aren't we all.
Rosemary (17:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
that's the best way to do things. And sometimes you have to try it on and see if it fits, you know? You won't know for sure if it's not. I just mean don't follow any trends blindly. Sometimes it's worth trying it on. If it looks remotely like, hey, this could be a line because it's kind of the same format that I enjoy. And I see a lot of my audiences there. But sometimes it's totally like, like it's not a line. if it's like.
Laura Kendrick (17:41)
Yeah, yeah, Substack didn't fit me.
Rosemary (18:02)
if I were to say, I'm gonna get on Snapchat. Like, really? For me, my business and my audience, that is so not aligned. Even if everyone and their grandma said, Snapchat is the ish, it's like really popping right now, whatever.
Laura Kendrick (18:17)
Yeah, I've
Rosemary (18:20)
No, really, that's basically it. Just look at your offers. Because when you're feeling like you're out of capacity or you can't handle it, it's often one of three things. Unclear offers, no system, or just carrying too much. So once you've been able to make that list, you will see, OK, that's where something is wrong. And then we can look at what's the next thing that you can do instead of just following everyone.
Laura Kendrick (18:43)
Yeah.
And I love too that there's the beautiful thing, like, okay, the overwhelming thing about having so many marketing platforms and marketing avenues is that it's overwhelming. sometimes you feel like you need to be on a lot of them when you don't, but the really lovely thing about it is that there's a place for everybody. So like, if you're deeply introverted, SEO is great. Like you, it's a slow burn, but it is like,
Rosemary (19:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (19:15)
suddenly one day you're like, wow, like that's working. I'm showing up on Pinterest and I'm blogging and ⁓ my gosh, or like a faceless Instagram account. That does work for people if you put the energy and time into it. So it's like, and then the people who are fully extroverted and are, you know, I want to share everything. Like, yeah, then dance for that camera girl. Like get it. It's totally possible to just.
Rosemary (19:29)
Yeah.
Hahaha!
Laura Kendrick (19:44)
be who you are and embrace your own personal capacity in like time, energy and be you. And as we kind of started this, people really can feel the energy behind it. If you're finding joy in it, they will gravitate towards it. It's kind of like that ⁓ super secret thing that most high school kids don't put together, but they're like coveting. They're like, why are the popular kids popular? And it's like confidence, man. Like that's it.
Rosemary (20:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (20:13)
There's no other thing behind it other than they're walking into the world with the utmost confidence and they're finding joy in it and they're just kind of like in their element and other people are like, wow. That works now too if you can find your joy in what you're doing in your marketing. Man, people feel it and they gravitate towards it.
Rosemary (20:27)
Yeah
Yeah, and I think most people are capable of doing that. Everybody has something that they enjoy in a way of doing things, but often we get sidetracked because we're watching other people. And when we're watching other people, then, well, all of a sudden we don't like what we're doing anymore. And then we're comparing and then we're like, well, they said we should do this. So now I'm going to do that. And obviously then your audience might not resonate with it because they're like, well, I actually came here for this and I enjoyed this way of doing things. So I remember I had a chat with, ⁓
Laura Kendrick (20:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
The shoulds.
Rosemary (21:05)
a friend recently, she was like, yeah, everybody's like networking events don't work, but I'm rocking it then. I'm like, exactly. Some people are like, oh, just online, online, online, but some are really, you know, really active locally. And you should, if your business allows you to, you know, go out and meet people, you should do that because you can also, maybe you'll speak to 10 people and out of this 10 people, three will reach out. And you can do a TikTok video and a lot of people will see it, nobody will click. So.
Laura Kendrick (21:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Do you.
Right? Right? I love that. I love that so much. And you're so right. I actually had a similar conversation just yesterday with somebody who was like killing it in their local area. I'm like, ⁓ all right. Good for you. I feel like mine's a dead zone, but that just could be me.
Rosemary (21:44)
Mm-hmm.
And
it's.
Laura Kendrick (21:51)
my gosh, such a good conversation. And I think it's so worth thinking about and really kind of folding these thoughts into your own business and marketing because it, and you're right, it is something that people aren't talking about enough. So thank you so much for bringing this thought process to this summit. Like it's amazing.
Rosemary (22:11)
Thank you.
Thank you for having me. ⁓ It's my favorite topic and yeah, anytime.
Laura Kendrick (22:21)
We'll have to do it again. ⁓ So before we sign off, can you tell the people where they can find you on the vast space of the internet?
Rosemary (22:23)
for sure.
Yeah, sure. So you can find me on my podcast, the Balance Business Formula podcast. And if you want to slide in the DMs, because that's your thing, I really love VoiceNote. So feel free to voice note me on Instagram, even though I do not post there, I am active in the DMs. So rosemary.dede on Instagram. And yeah, I also have a special freebie for you. So if you download it, then you learn all about how you can apply this to your own business.
Laura Kendrick (23:00)
Amazing, amazing. I can't wait to just go snag it myself. It's gonna be fun. Well, thank you again for being a part of this.
Rosemary (23:09)
Thank you for having me.
The Trust Recession Is Real.
How to Build an Email List That Actually Replies Back
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Amy Collins is a stand-up comedian turned Email Specialist. She helps solopreneurs who love to write build email backends that run smoother than a baby's ass so they can focus on what truly lights them up.
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The Hospitality Sequence Framework
The Hospitality Sequence Framework shows you the modern way to welcome people onto your email list by meeting them where they’re at and giving them what they need right now as if they're regular guests at your table. (don’t you wish everyone would do that for you?) -
Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for being a part of this.
Amy Collins (00:11)
Hi Laura, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and chat with you.
Laura Kendrick (00:15)
Me too, me too. Okay, before we dive in, can you tell the people who don't know who you are, but really should know who you are, just a little bit about yourself.
Amy Collins (00:25)
Yeah, so I'm an email marketing strategist specialist. I work with solopreneurs who really love to write and who are using kit to kind of clean up their back ends so it runs smoother than a baby's ass. ⁓ I know so many babies in there. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (00:40)
⁓ Everybody needs that in kit, I swear.
and they don't have
smooth asses.
Amy Collins (00:49)
They don't. don't. Babies should not be allowed to have pimples that early. It's just wrong. It's wrong. Yeah, I love to work with solopreneurs. I often end up working with women, which I think is just the natural way, who love to write and want to keep their voice. But the tech part and the strategy part and kind of delivering what they really want to deliver to their customers is ⁓ it's tricky and overwhelming and
It stops people when it doesn't need to.
Laura Kendrick (01:22)
Yeah,
yeah. And I feel like sometimes Kit, not to dive into this space, but sometimes Kit can make, and honestly, it's all the email service providers, because it like piecemeals it out. It feels it's like, oh wait, I have to make a sequence. So I have to like write the sequence and I have to make the tags and I have to make the, you know, the form that they sign up with. And then I also have to make the automation. And they're all like these separate pieces that are just like, why, why is it so hard? But then again,
I'm not a developer behind the scenes, so I'm gonna assume there's a good reason. So I'm just gonna like breathe and call you.
Amy Collins (01:58)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I'll tell you, don't ask why they did it that way. Just go with the flow. Just trust me, you're in good hands. Just swallow this one little pill.
Laura Kendrick (02:04)
Right? Right?
That's like asking your kids, like, why did you lick
that doorknob?
Amy Collins (02:13)
You
Laura Kendrick (02:15)
so I was really excited when I saw your topic come through and like the suggested idea that you had. And it was, what if our approach was actually not money first? I mean, yes, like this is like where my heart and my head live and also where this whole idea of hospitality and marketing thrives that we don't like, what if this were the case? So.
Let's dive in. Let's like talk about that. How do you see this? Like I wanna like hear your take on it.
Amy Collins (02:51)
Yeah, well it's definitely an evolving thought process and it's something that I kind of personally had been struggling with and trying to figure out how to run a business that feels really good to me and feels aligned and not like I'm constantly not doing well enough. And I kind of drilled down to this thing about being money first and chasing the money. And I thought, well, what if I flip that and I start approaching my business more in connecting with
people and you know as if they're standing right in front of me and being an email marketer that's you know I'm talking specifically to that but I think this would be applicable to any online business and then I started thinking about what does that look like on on the external side in terms of how we're treating our email list how we're approaching our subscribers ⁓
And it does trickle into the copy as well, right? You I also have direct response copywriting training. So it's all the psychological manipulations, the urgency, all of the emotions, all the stuff that works. But also, you know, that was really developed several decades ago. And we're living in a very, very different time now. And I think that
Laura Kendrick (03:56)
love it.
Yeah, it does.
Amy Collins (04:13)
You know, I keep hearing this word trust recession. ⁓ Apparently we're in a trust recession and that's, you know, not surprising, I think, for anyone to hear that if that's the first time you're hearing that term. And the more AI takes in, you know, into play, it's harder and harder to trust what we're receiving. So I guess I'm asking questions and kind of finding ways to break through to that and like, well,
What if, like how do we treat that in our business? And what if we really make the focus the people? And just trust that the money comes.
Laura Kendrick (04:50)
Yeah. Okay. That I feel like is the hard part. The trusting that the money will come. And I am totally with you. Like I hear all of it. And I'm actually kind of excited because I think we can go to some like really actionable, granular places here, which is really exciting. But I love that you said that, trust that the money comes because I think that's the hardest part about it is that moment. Because you are watching the people who do not think like this.
Amy Collins (04:52)
I know, I...
Laura Kendrick (05:18)
who are very transactional and are very numbers oriented and you see them, the successful ones, you see them very successful and you see them like in a very public way. And I'm actually thinking of a friend of mine who is like, as we're recording this is in the midst of a launch and I'm seeing her emails coming through. She's very well known in this space. And I like, and she's coming to mind for me where I'm like.
And every once in a while I'm like, should I adopt this model? But I also know that it's a model of, she's a sweet person, but it is a model of distance. And that is not where I enjoy working personally. And I know that if I adopted that model, I would in all likelihood burn out and like burn it to the ground before I actually got very far. So it's that thing of trusting that it will come.
Amy Collins (06:08)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (06:13)
that might actually be the hardest part of the whole thing.
Amy Collins (06:16)
For sure, well, and I love that you use the word distance because that's something that I see a lot and one of my biggest complaints and then antidote recommendations is people who don't reply to their emails when you reply to them. Whether they're asking for a reply or not, they're kind of.
Laura Kendrick (06:29)
Mm.
Do you mean like
cold pitch emails or just P or like.
Amy Collins (06:40)
People on your list, people who subscribe to your list and then they respond even if you don't ask. I mean, my favorite is I read every email. That is a limp handshake. don't, you know, like I don't have proof of that. Also, congratulations, you're reading them. Can we start a dialogue? Because I'm not also replying with fluff. I'm replying with thoughtful things.
Laura Kendrick (06:41)
Okay. ⁓ I see what you're
Well, and isn't that the whole thing that we're asking for people to reply because we're asking for the engagement. We're asking for people to come out of this one-sided relationship and choose to make it a two-way relationship, which is the whole thing of like building these relationships. But I hear what you're saying. Like, I actually get annoyed sometimes by, I've seen people who have, not in a while, but I've seen people who have, ⁓
the autoresponders in their inbox that says like we basically we get a lot of emails we might not answer this and I'm like whoa yikes that doesn't ingratiate me to you
Amy Collins (07:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, my favorite is we read every email but we can't reply to all of them. Great, well, you know, I see everyone in line at the coffee shop but I'm not gonna acknowledge all of them even if they speak to me.
Laura Kendrick (07:51)
Mm-hmm.
but it doesn't mean I won't
kick you in the shins. No.
Amy Collins (08:03)
Exactly,
exactly. It's just such a, you I get if you have hundreds of thousands of subscribers, it takes up a lot of time. You ought to be in a position that you can hire someone, a real human to help you out with this, you know? And there are like, I can think of two people in the space who are doing a really excellent job of this, ⁓ but most people...
I don't know, I've been so disheartened with people that I've even bought products from, like several hundred dollars with, and I'll reply with a like, I love this approach, what about this? And I get nothing back. And I'm like, dude, I put money in your pocket. And you're clearly, I'm not even correctly tagged in your email list because you keep selling me the same product I already got. So you're not listening to me at all. I'm literally a number to you.
Laura Kendrick (08:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
⁓ yes, yeah, I love that.
Amy Collins (08:54)
So I think like, but again, to go back to what you're saying about asking for engagement, most of the conversations we hear is ask your people to engage with you so that your emails get delivered. Meaning it comes, it's all about the sender. It's still all about the sender. It's not about building a connection. It's not about starting a conversation. Like that's not really.
part of the email marketing world. It's really all about how to make the money. And you know, I mean, it's, I'm not saying anyone's, you know, objectively wrong for this. Like we come very much from a, wait, what was that?
Laura Kendrick (09:33)
No, you can, it's fine. No, I'm just kidding.
No, you can, it's fine. Like, they're objectively wrong. It's fine.
Amy Collins (09:38)
Okay.
Well, honestly, Laura, everyone is objectively wrong. And don't let me forget to come back to the part about trusting on the money because that is like, let me don't just talk out of my ass and like actually like share these thought through thoughts. ⁓ But, you know, we are a capitalist society and we are
Laura Kendrick (09:46)
That's true. That is true. That's absolutely true.
Amy Collins (10:08)
very much a testosterone first society. Most of these models that we are learning, whether we're men or women, are coming from a very specific energy type, a very specific social role. And I think it would behoove us, especially female business owners, to kind of question that and what's going on there. And so when I talk about like putting people first, it is about
Laura Kendrick (10:11)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Collins (10:37)
taking care of your subscribers as people and starting to build community, but it also reflects back like, what am I actually capable of doing? What energy level do I have to bring to this? Do I have children? And I know for a fact you do have children because you didn't reply to my email because your selfish children were sick.
Laura Kendrick (10:52)
Mm-hmm.
And then I was sick. So right now I think as we are having this conversation, my inbox is overflowing and I need to get to it today. But also like I hear what you're saying. And for me, like I will happily admit, not happily, I will sadly admit that sometimes my inbox does get behind and because I am a solopreneur and I do have moments where I have very long reply times, but there's always a rep.
Amy Collins (10:59)
And then you were sick.
Laura Kendrick (11:24)
And inside of it is always acknowledgement of that, of like, yes, I suck, I'm sorry. Or some iteration of that. I wish it, like I do hate it. And I wish I was somebody who could inbox zero every hour on the hour. But I can't. I don't have that capability. And I have to recognize that. But I hear totally what you're saying because it does suck. And especially, honestly, hearing like the big companies that do it.
Amy Collins (11:25)
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (11:53)
It bothers me because I'm like, you guys have the budget to get ⁓ some kind of program in there like Help Scout or something that can sort the emails that multiple people can be in there that you can manage it, that you can quickly see what are notifications and close them, or you can hire people to help manage it. That is just like, if you have that much email coming through, God, I hope some level of them are converting.
Amy Collins (12:20)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, the solopreneurs were like, I make $10 million off my email list. Like, thank you.
Laura Kendrick (12:21)
It should be.
hire a VA, don't be a solo parent anymore,
if you're that behind. Like that's the thing. And I'm somebody who I stand firmly by, I don't believe you need to build a team. I don't think there's any shoulds out there. You don't have to build a team if it doesn't suit you. You don't have to do any of these things. But there are also programs that help you. So it's that thing of like currently, I'm trying to figure out how to inside my membership.
figure out how to kind of, ⁓ I don't know, ramshackle together some automations. Because in a past life, when I had a membership, I had a yoga studio, I had a big fancy system, a platform that did all these things together. But at the moment, it's just not in a space to justify that. So how do you do that? But at least I can see. I can see that this is a problem.
that needs fixing. These automations need to be in place. The people inside need to feel held, and it needs to be easier for me. The solution could be hiring somebody. It could be getting back on one of these platforms. It could be getting scrappy with it. But in the terms of other people, it's like if you're making $10 million on email, there are ways to make it so the people in that inbox who are making you that $10 million don't feel
quite so crappy even if you're not trying to build like bestie status with them.
Amy Collins (14:00)
Yes, yes, agreed. And I think in the meantime, just, you know, transparency goes a really long way, you know, and I can hold space for you while you need time to reply to my email, you know. We're all humans and we're not perfect. And I think that's a lot of what I'm getting at is, you know, accepting that, but also making more space for more of that.
Laura Kendrick (14:02)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Amy Collins (14:27)
⁓ As far as trusting that the money will come, think, you know, it is, that is a hard one because it's our most stable, secure place, right? It's our essential security. ⁓ But it's also a construct, you know?
Laura Kendrick (14:43)
Yeah. man, we're gonna
go, we could go in so many places here.
Amy Collins (14:48)
I know you're gonna have to stop me.
Laura Kendrick (14:50)
No,
I hear you. yeah, it's, it is like, there's so many emotions, there's history, there's trauma, but also like economics, our livelihoods, our homes, our food, all of it is tied into this thing. So it's, it's got a lot wrapped around it. And even on that, basic kind of nutshell, you're a hundred percent right. And as you were saying, I was like, Oh yeah, like that is tied to it.
But there's also an element in entrepreneurship, especially in this space, where we can all see each other. And it's much more visible. It can be really hard to watch the person in the online cubicle next door, seemingly. Instagram following's growing, and their emails come out, and it looks like, and that's the whole thing. It looks this way, but you don't actually know.
to not feel like, why not me? You know, like, why aren't I getting that? Or to expect it, you know, at least here in the Western world, we have this real lovely kind of connection to this idea of the magic pill, if you will. Like the one thing that's gonna instantly get us there. And the catch that you don't notice though is, and I'm thinking about this friend of mine who is ⁓ launching right now.
She's been in business for over 10 years. And so yeah, she has a seven figure business. She didn't always have a seven figure business. And it's like that messy part that she went through, we're just not watching that now. And so that can be really hard no matter where you are in your business, even if you're close to that seven figures or you had that seven figures and you dipped down a little bit, it's really hard to watch that and be like, you know, like to not feel your own like, but that was mine kind of thing, you know?
Amy Collins (16:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, and we really don't hear those stories. Nobody's telling, rarely are they telling that side of the story. If they do, it's like just a little one off, which is disappointing. Because, and the other thing that we're not seeing is they may be doing crazy numbers in their business, but what's their home life like? Is their relationship fulfilling? I mean, there's so many parts to it. And so I think what I'm asking are bigger questions, which are, you know,
Laura Kendrick (16:42)
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Yeah.
Amy Collins (17:08)
I kind of believe the future is offline. I know that is a really wild contrarian take and I'm not anti-AI and I'm not anti-internet or anything like that. I'm pretty technologically savvy, I think, we hope. ⁓ But the relationships, the human to human relationships, like that's where the good stuff is. And the truth is the money comes out of that.
Laura Kendrick (17:11)
Mmm.
Yes.
Amy Collins (17:38)
And that precedes money, it precedes agriculture, it precedes industry, Like hunter gatherer, which is where our brains are, like evolutionary, we're still in that very primitive space of what is safe, and we've replaced all of that with money.
But the truth is the community still exists. That sense of belonging and support and I mean if you, you know I spent nine years living in New Orleans. I wasn't there during Katrina but I was there long enough to know that that is very much a place where when shit gets really bad and people are without, people that don't know them will step up and they will look out for each other. And I think that's...
Laura Kendrick (18:22)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Collins (18:26)
That's the thing that I'm really kind of getting at. I'm getting at a deeper thing, which is almost, it almost feels anti-marketing, but I think there's space for all of it.
Laura Kendrick (18:35)
This does, this whole thing feels anti-marketing, but it shouldn't is the thing. And it's funny, cause it all, like this whole idea stemmed from like original, mean, of course it's a melting pot of my life, my life experience, my thoughts, like all these things. But interesting, the first spark that lit it was, I think it was like three years ago. I was already well steeped in copy and stuff. And I had this whole stack, I still do.
Amy Collins (18:39)
Exactly.
Laura Kendrick (19:03)
of like marketing and copy books. And I happened to run out the door to take the kids somewhere where I knew I was going to have to sit. So I usually grab a book anyways, just in case. But I happened to grab one of the like basic copywriting books. And even though I was like well beyond, I still like to hear how people kind of word things and put things together. And this guy in it started the intro with, and I still remember like sitting in front of the jungle gym that they were playing on, like reading this thing.
And him stating, like, the things you're about to learn in here can be used to manipulate people. You need to be careful how you use it. And I'm like, damn, like, way to, like, throw that right out there. But that's the thing. We now live in a savvy environment. And honestly, it's human to human anyways, because all of these transactions, they're an energetic exchange. So you are building a relationship, whether it's a distant one, where it's just, you know, give me your $5 and goodbye.
there's still a relationship that was built there. There's still a memory of some kind that will be there. And that relationship will dictate the future or lack of future in that relationship. And for most of us in the business space, we're not looking for one-off people. We want interactions that last a long time. And if you put all this together, it doesn't have to be that way. Like it really should be.
about relationships at the end of the day. And we're using these tools to, in this loud big world, because we no longer live in our three block radius, we're building it to call in the right relationships. And if we kind of flip the script on that, then we can land back in this notion that it doesn't have to be money first.
Amy Collins (20:54)
Right, right, relationship first, alignment, like and like, and really more of a peer to peer, hey, I figured out this thing, or I have this perspective, let me share it with you and see if it helps you, right? And it's not a do it this way, run your business this way, which there's a lot of that.
Laura Kendrick (20:57)
Yeah.
Amy Collins (21:14)
And that enforces that I'm not good enough, I'm not doing enough, I'm somehow failing because my business doesn't look like that business. And how often do we actually get still and quiet and get to the point where like, I actually don't want that. I don't want that because I have these other things that are more important to me, whatever they may be. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (21:39)
Yeah. 100%. All right. Well, I mean, this was a really fun conversation. I feel like we could have gone on and on and on, we probably should. But for now, ⁓ share where the people can find you out in this big, bad digital world.
Amy Collins (21:50)
But...
Yeah, scary jungle digital world. I am on LinkedIn. I post about this kind of stuff and email marketing and whatnot under my name, The Real Amy Collins. I'm not actually that extra. It's just when I went to get my domain several years ago, was, it was, it was, The Real Amy Collins was literally, literally the only option.
Laura Kendrick (22:00)
Yeah.
It was gone, yeah. Yeah.
Amy Collins (22:24)
⁓ And then you can find me at TheRealAmyCollins.com and I do have an email list. Shocking, yes. Join my list. Let's do this together.
Laura Kendrick (22:37)
I love it. I love it. Well, thank
you so much for being here and lending your thoughtfulness and your voice to this conversation.
Amy Collins (22:45)
Thank you for listening. I'm honored.
Automate the Boring Stuff, Not the Humans.
A Systems Approach for Solopreneurs Who Want to Stay Connected
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Michelle MacNeil is a Certified Systems Business Coach based in rural Alberta, where she runs her coaching practice alongside a very busy hobby farm. She specializes in helping business owners who've hit the systems wall and are too successful to quit but too overwhelmed to enjoy it. Her philosophy is simple: your business should support your life, not consume it and your systems should bend without breaking. She helps clients reclaim their time, build operations that actually run, and stop white-knuckling their way through their business journey.
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Stop Winging It: Quarterly Planning Walkthrough
Finally, a planning process that doesn't require a PhD in project management. This guided video walkthrough takes you through my Quick & Dirty Quarterly Planning Tool from start to finish. Zero fluff, with working time built in. Get your quarter mapped out in about an hour.
Discount Code: HMS2026
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Michelle, Michelle, Michelle, welcome in. I'm so excited you're here. This conversation is gonna be like really, really good. I'm really pumped. Before we dive in, do tell the folks who don't know anything about you, but really, really should, a little bit about you.
Michelle MacNeil (00:23)
You bet. So I am Michelle McNeil. I'm a certified systems business coach. So basically I help entrepreneurs that are in the too successful to quit, but too overwhelmed to enjoy it phase of business, which can be a wide range of business. I am also a spontaneous hobby farmer in rural Alberta, Canada. So when I talk about chaos and systems, I know what I'm talking about.
Laura Kendrick (00:38)
huh.
like the best credential ever. I love it. I love it. Okay. So we're talking about systems and hospitality and like this is definitely something that have my wheels turning. Cause honestly, part of this whole idea arose for me from watching humans in our world build systems and automations and all the things that in essence,
built the humanity out of their businesses, where they were so separated. They were, I mean, like you couldn't get access to them or very rarely. like, just, to me, never felt really great that way. But also I do see the flip side as like a solopreneur myself that, yeah, without some kinds of things in place, it's, yeah, this bugger's gonna burn to the ground in about a week.
Michelle MacNeil (01:45)
Yes, yes, definitely. And you're right, systems can be used to automate and systematize a business to give the owner more freedom to the point where the business doesn't technically need them to run. ⁓ But that also, like you said, removes you from the business and then adds a layer of like disconnect to it.
We all go into business for different reasons. Some people want that freedom and flexibility of, have a business paying me to not be there and be head CEO, jet setting. Cool. You built that in some ways.
Laura Kendrick (02:11)
Right, right, right, for sure, for sure.
I mean, in some ways that sounds delightful, but then in other ways it sounds like I would
just drift away and be like, cool, bye.
Michelle MacNeil (02:28)
And I think that might speak to us as entrepreneurs. It's like, I built this. Why wouldn't I want to be in it? Like that's the whole point. But when you scale it down to smaller businesses or solopreneurs or service providers, systems really can be the cornerstone of hospitality because when you have a business owner.
Laura Kendrick (02:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (02:49)
whose shit is taken care of and just doing. It's running in the background, the admin is being done, the finance stuff is being done, the client communication is being done within the systems. You have a business owner that has capacity ⁓ that might be refreshed. They might still be running on caffeine, but they are not putting out fires all day long. They are not up all night. What am I going to do about payroll? They have those things taken care of so they can be present in the business. They can be on their game.
Laura Kendrick (03:03)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle MacNeil (03:19)
when they're talking to clients and doing their marketing or their networking or whatever it is because the business has their back, their systems have their back, and they get to do the ultimate service to clients because they've got less mind trash going on while they're in the day-to-day.
Laura Kendrick (03:39)
Right, right. And the space and breadth to be fully present in the places where they want to be present. And I think that's what sets this crowd apart is like anybody who's listening to this has felt that thing of like, yes, how do I connect with the humans through this, you know, these wires and these screens and these cables and these massive platforms that feel impossible to connect with people over.
So like they're hearing us and being like, yes, I don't know why you would write yourself out. But for sure, there are people there who like that is the goal and like rock on. Like if that's your MO, amazing. But I do love this idea that you can actually put strategically, put in systems and automations and tech and all the pieces that make the things that are wasting your time or that are really hard.
or that are the of, that are the hitch and the giddy up for you making those connections and bridging those gaps so that you can kind of move along at your own pace and be able to show up where you want to, which I love, love,
Michelle MacNeil (04:52)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (04:53)
Yeah, so, okay. So let's talk a little bit about you, cause you mentioned to me this idea of like the small business rates of success are low. And you have strong feelings about that and you feel like systems come into play with that. And I would love to, cause I think that's something that also sits like, we don't recognize it until like it goes away or something deeply changes. But oftentimes there's this like low level simmer of like,
know, in entrepreneurship, that's the low level stress of like, what happens if I misstep and it could all like just go away and I could, you know, blow it all up. I would love to hear your take on this. Cause I think that that is a low level stress that's keeping people like from being able to show up well.
Michelle MacNeil (05:40)
Totally. I... Mindfulness is becoming a really big thing. It has been... I'm getting there. I swear for the first like four years of my business, I did not breathe. Like it was constantly holding my breath, waiting. And so I feel that right to my core. But...
Laura Kendrick (06:01)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle MacNeil (06:04)
The small business success rate, it is, sitting around 50 % around the five year mark and that hasn't budged in over 30 years. So we're offering business owners the same support, non-support that they've been getting and nothing's changing. If nothing changes, nothing changes. With the Amazons and the Walmarts of the world.
There's not enough support for small business. And the one thing that is really hard to hear for a lot of business owners is no one's coming to save your business. Like this is on you. Which is why there's no breathing. Like it makes sense. ⁓ And I like how you say the simmer.
Laura Kendrick (06:32)
Yep. Yep. Yep. That's why we sometimes
dream of the salary job. It's like, should I go back?
Michelle MacNeil (06:41)
I swear, once a year, at least once a year, it's like, okay, let's go see what's out there. And it's like, you want me to come to the office for how many hours? What? And then it's like, right, maybe this isn't that bad. ⁓ But being able to like...
Laura Kendrick (06:46)
We all have days, yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (07:00)
Again, we don't go into business because we're good at business. There's a lot of business I am not good at. And until I realized I needed support in those areas, no, I always knew I needed support in those areas. Until I accepted the fact that I needed to put support in those areas, I struggled. And so once I started building in the support and the systems in those areas, all of a sudden,
my bookkeeping wasn't so bad. It's getting done. ⁓ My marketing is getting done on a regular basis and I don't totally hate it anymore. But it is a slippery slope of putting in too many systems and losing that connection to it. ⁓ When I first started putting in like marketing systems, I got ahead. I was like six weeks ahead on my marketing. I was like, look at me. I'm so productive.
Laura Kendrick (07:44)
Wow, never been
six weeks ahead and I'm a marketer.
Michelle MacNeil (07:48)
I hated it. All of sudden stuff was coming out and I was like, ⁓ past Michelle, what? Like it was fine when I wrote it, but now six weeks later, I was like, I don't feel this way anymore. Like I do, but I don't. It's like, it's not fresh and exciting to me anymore. And so I had to dial all that back. And I now do my marketing on a bi-weekly basis because I need, I need to be in on it, but I had to learn that. And I'm...
Laura Kendrick (07:55)
Yeah
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle MacNeil (08:14)
I'm an organized planner. When I plan something that far out and it like absolutely sucks, it's like, what's wrong? My plans never backfire. Well, not kidding. But my plans never like fail me like this when I'm this far into it. But I had to find out where my business could be without me and where I did need to be. My bookkeeping doesn't need me. It probably does better without me, which is all right. My marketing apparently needs me. My client communications.
They need me. There are certain things I can't systematize myself out of. And for good reason, nor do I want to. But all the pieces that are like the shitty little pieces that just pop up throughout the week and drag you down throughout the week, those are the things that I build systems around. So they're not. And it takes time. But once you have solid systems supporting you, things just become and not easier, but you can go through it with more ease.
Laura Kendrick (08:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. What do systems look like for you? So I'm kind of curious like what your definition of a system is.
Michelle MacNeil (09:19)
Yeah,
yeah, and it is painfully simple. I love everything simple. A system is simply the way something happens within your business or your life.
Again, I live on a farm. have systematized everything out here so we can survive. So systems work on all sides of things. So when you look at it as simply the way something's happening, everything you're doing is already a system. So whether it's documented or formalized or repeated consistently, that's your current system. So it could be different every day if it's not formalized. ⁓ And so basically when I work with people on systems, we start with what they're already doing and build systems around that. Like, it's not like we're going to come in and overhaul everything.
It's what's already working. Okay, let's build a system around that. What's not working? Let's make it work. so systems can be super small. They can be robust. They can get super nerdy on it. They are all interconnected. So if you look at your business as an entire system of systems, like
gears in the cogs or the cogs and the wheels or however you want to put it, they all connect. So when you're adjusting systems, you have to pay attention for the ripples because fixing something over here might ripple over here and then you got to adjust the system there. I get really
involved when it comes to like formalizing systems and attaching what they're attached to in it. So when you're changing a system it's like okay now I gotta go look at this this and this because it's going to affect that. So then small systems changes don't derail the whole thing because you know the map to follow but it doesn't happen overnight it's just small systems compounding it's like compound interest just a little bit on a little bit.
Laura Kendrick (10:59)
Yeah.
So can
you give an example of like what, I don't know, what a system around your ⁓ customer like communication, what would that, what would be an example of that in your mind?
Michelle MacNeil (11:15)
Yeah, so it can be like whether it's like a specific onboarding sequence and you know like when you put them in it does this, it sends them that, they sign it, it comes back and it just does all of that for you. When it comes to client communication it could just be boundaries. I don't check my email after five o'clock. No one gets my cell phone number because there are no emergencies in small business systems. If there are you're not calling me.
and putting the boundaries in so I'm not squirreling away on the side trying to respond to emails in a time that I shouldn't be responding to emails. Like it can be as simple as that. Like for me, I check emails in the morning at the end of the day. You send me something in the middle, unless you text me, I ain't gonna look. And like I just said, no one gets my cell phone number, so I'm not gonna look till the end of the day.
Laura Kendrick (11:52)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, which clears up all the brain space to be where you actually need to be, which I love that. So how are you, how do you connect the line that creating these systems could help with the businesses not hit this kind of 50 % success rate that it could be a higher number?
Michelle MacNeil (12:26)
Yeah, so. ⁓
I tend to work with businesses between that three to five to eight year in business. It's like the awkward teenage phase of business. So like they're in it, the honeymoon's over. Like, cause you know, the first year it's like, woohoo, like what am I like, I'm doing it. So the honeymoon's over. If they started with funds, like startup funds, or they got financing at the start, it's gone by year three. And so now they're bumping up against the reality of what they've built. And usually the systems that they've been using to get them there will not get them to
Laura Kendrick (12:41)
Hmm?
Michelle MacNeil (12:58)
the next step because they're bumping up against the capacity of what they can do in their current state. And so then it comes down to just... and every business is so different because every business owner is so different. And while all businesses have the same themes of issues and problems, the way they're happening and the way they need to be solved can be wildly wildly different for the same kind of problem for two different businesses. So it really...
Laura Kendrick (13:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I love that you said that.
Because that's something that actually, I was actually, as I was taking my kids to school today, was thinking about that in the car as they were, I don't know, talking about some video game and like a bad mom, I was tuning out and working in my brain. And that was actually thinking about somebody who talks about time management and she's coach and like, I love her deeply, but then also there's this one thing that I'm like, this bothers me and exactly what you said.
landed in my mind of like, is why it bothers me because she's like this, this kind of time management, like everybody should be doing this. I'm like, no, every like people's brains work differently. People's like the way they function works differently. So not everybody like, no, no. Cause it's always when she says it, I'm like, that wouldn't work for me. I don't not, I'm not a client of hers, but also I'm like, I wouldn't want to be a client who's like, you know, non-compliance and like seen as a troubled child.
Michelle MacNeil (14:13)
Totally.
Right?
Laura Kendrick (14:25)
But also,
no.
Michelle MacNeil (14:29)
Exactly, I know I the amount of times I tried to force myself into time blocking cuz I was like they say this works You're gonna make it work doesn't work for me ⁓ Doesn't work at all. It's too vague I I will clean baseboards before I sit down to a time block chunk of space to do marketing
Laura Kendrick (14:40)
It doesn't work for me either. Yeah.
Well, you know what gets me
too is like, if you can't finish it in that time block. So you're just running through life with a bunch of half done stuff because it like, and it doesn't give you the agility to move between things like yesterday, my kids have been sick. So trying to like climb out from under that, I have my to-do list and I, there were like two things above clean out my email, but I was like, it feels urgent to clean out my email. So I went through the email, but the email was spidering into those other two things, including one of them was,
catching up on summit stuff for this summit. And so I was like, there were emails from summit people. And so that spiraled in. I'm like, but this is how I work. And it all got done. And I felt really good about it. And I was like, But I love, but she would have if probably, not necessarily her, but time blocking people would have been all mad at me for not being outside of my time block. But it doesn't work with my brain. It just doesn't. It's, yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (15:46)
Totally, I
cannot time block. My life is messy. My life is unpredictable. I cannot time block. The farm doesn't give a shit about my time block.
Laura Kendrick (15:51)
hehe
I'm sitting in a hundred year old house. It's one of those things that like if you're like I'm gonna go change a light bulb the light bulbs like yeah, right. You're gonna redo all the electrical in the house right now like it spirals so quickly. So I feel you.
Michelle MacNeil (15:58)
you
Right?
And,
totally. it's so funny how much I've learned about business from the farm because it just happens to me and I just have to figure it out. But it's amazing how many 15 minute projects have three and a half hours of runway before you can start 15 minute freaking project.
Laura Kendrick (16:28)
There.
Yes, yes. And yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I also want to be able to give things personally my full attention and not have to be kind of putting it into like, I only have this much time to do this. So it's as much as I can get done in this time. It's like, But that's just how I like to work. And I love that you said that about systems because I am a firm believer as a marketer, as a copywriter, as, and like, same thing, like it, your marketing touches everything in your business.
Michelle MacNeil (16:40)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (17:02)
It is fueled by everything in your business and it affects everything in your business. Like it's all this huge spider web of just like life, the world, history, all the things, like it all comes together in this holistic way. But that being said, it's like I am a firm believer that you cannot copy and paste a template, a plan, ⁓ like anything you.
You just can't do that. Yes, in the very beginning, sure. It's a gateway to entry. It gets you like showing up, doing the things. Rock on. Go grab that templated thing. Actually start showing up. Be out in the world. But eventually you have to get strategic or else you're not gonna, you're gonna be one of the, on the other side of the 50 % of the success thing. So it's like, and I firmly believe that too, cause actually like we're about to, ⁓
start homeschooling our kids next year. And right now I'm like gathering curriculums and things like that. And I'm pretty well got it together. And I got to the point of like, okay, how can I like easily plan their like week to week without, know, in a way that serves us and like pull this curriculum out and get all the different curriculums to like marry together. Cause of course there's like no math inside of the core curriculum. You know, it's like, you got to fold in the math and science and all that. So.
doing that, I'm like started like googling and looking at like people's ideas and things and I'm seeing all these, of course, these people who have these like templates and these, you you can buy them on Etsy and you can buy books and stuff. I'm like, former version of me would have probably purchased a handful of them and like they would have been in piles on my floor and like in the shred pile or the recycling bin weeks later after like fail, fail, fail and then probably figured it out with like a notebook and whiteboard or like some
concoction that's going to happen on the fly as it's going that's going to be messy not like, you know, Pinterest worthy. Don't care.
Michelle MacNeil (19:04)
you
Laura Kendrick (19:05)
But it's that same idea that you can't, like it's gotta work with my flow and my kids flow and the way we wanna do things. it's not, I don't know how you can take someone else's even like scheduling template for something like that and even drop it on. Like my brain just kind of breaks a little bit and I'm like, how? So I do adore that you said that because I think that's true across the board. And especially once you get beyond the new.
and you get into that messy middle and the experience years, all of that, well, the experience years, you've figured it out and you've created your own stuff, but in that messy middle is when you're trying to figure that own stuff out and applying that customized things and like what's working and what's not. I love the idea of creating everything, like everything does eventually need to be totally bespoke to you.
Michelle MacNeil (19:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (20:00)
Your business, your audience, your offer is totally different than anybody else's. So, love it.
Michelle MacNeil (20:05)
completely.
And the thing, the downfall I see a lot is people think that it has to be somewhat complicated to be effective. And then they over complicate from the start. And so they start building these systems they haven't even used yet. And on paper looks great, awesome system. And then they go to start using it's like, ⁓ none of this shit applies. ⁓ gosh. Yep. Yep. And it
Laura Kendrick (20:15)
Mmm, it's true. Yeah.
I have a lot of dead spreadsheets, like trackers. Yeah, I got a lot of those. Yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (20:34)
It doesn't have to be complicated to work. In fact, the more simple you can keep it, the more chance it has of working. And because again, going back to everyone being slightly different, the only thing I bring to every client is my quarterly planning.
like framework because we plan out quarters. Other than that, it's like a choose your own adventure. We're going to look at how you work. If you don't have any idea how you work best or where you like to work best, we're going to play with that throughout as well and figure out what's going to work for you because I can't do time blocking, but you bet your butt when I plan out my week there is a ton of buffer time in there because I'm probably going to use every last minute of that buffer time because something's going to go wrong. Something's going to go wrong, I'm going to squirrel somewhere or
Laura Kendrick (21:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (21:22)
we plan for our most most productive days and those happen like what twice a month so I plan for my least productive days
Laura Kendrick (21:29)
what is it, the
book about ⁓ running your business with your menstrual cycle? Which I totally get it. I can feel those things, the creative bursts, the energy bursts. I'm like, yeah, who has the luxury to do that though? Because it's even, I I love it. And I love the idea of being able to honor our own bodies all the time. But also, we have to eat. So.
Michelle MacNeil (21:55)
do. And I also love that idea and I would love to lean into it. But right now that is not the season I'm in. I do not, I cannot add that to my plate with what I'm trying to do right now. So I'm just as surprised as everyone else when I'm having a hard week. Every time.
Laura Kendrick (22:12)
Yes,
yes, but ⁓ it is really fun to kind of get to see those spaces. honestly, think yesterday was the first, actually this week is the first week in a long time that I have actually very thoughtfully built my to-do list and actually like crossed all the things off. So like I'm actually moving through the week feeling really good of like the capacity is good. Cause that's a thing that's been
weighing on me for a long time. I'm somebody who I have a monster capacity. Like I can take on a lot and the people who in detail know like the inner workings of my personal life, family dynamics, the like and work dynamics, they're always like, whoa, like how did you have time to like build a summit or do any of this? And I'm like, I just do. But then it comes to this point of, but should, should I?
be tapping into all that? And I've been wrestling with that question for many years now.
But it's really lovely to be able to actually see the things and take the step back. And some of it is that I do have systems in place. Some of it is like I'm seeing glaringly where systems need to be in place. And I'm like, good lord.
Michelle MacNeil (23:29)
If it makes you feel better, I also have a giant shit list of systems that need to be put in place that I just haven't gotten to. I'm dealing with the ones that are making the biggest impact now because it's it's ongoing. Your business is going to evolve, which means your processes and your systems are going to evolve. And it it just keeps going. It's like it's a constant evolution. And like I say that your systems will squeak before they break because you'll all of sudden you'll have one of those, huh? That's usually easier than.
Laura Kendrick (23:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (23:59)
It's, that's usually easier than that. That's usually a squeaky system and then you know where to put some attention. But when you talk about capacity, you must have some awesome systems because they build capacity. Systems are like the only thing that give you back time. And might not be the only thing, but they're one of the main things that give you back time. And so you can have this capacity. Like when I was really dialing in my systems and...
Laura Kendrick (24:05)
Aw, man.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle MacNeil (24:25)
Again, I have a lot going on, it took time, but after like four, five, six months, all of a sudden my to-do list was like suspiciously short and I was like, I'm missing something important. But I wasn't because I'd finally put the things in place so I didn't have all the fires breaking out. I wasn't running around trying to fix all the shit that was breaking as I was going forward.
Laura Kendrick (24:37)
Mm.
Yeah.
Michelle MacNeil (24:50)
it was put together and it was just working. And so like my to-do list is like this long and I'm just like, there should be like 14 more things just for today. No, not anymore. I know. I know. And I know this season won't last, but I'm really enjoying it right now. Spring is coming on the farm and chaos is going to reign supreme. So right now I'm just enjoying this.
Laura Kendrick (25:01)
amazing. I love that. So good. You should bask in it. I enjoy it for you.
Yeah.
You're like the only person in the middle of Canada who's like, keep the winter just a little longer.
Michelle MacNeil (25:23)
Yep. Yep. A little bit. A little bit. There's a lot that comes.
Laura Kendrick (25:30)
I love that for you. All right, well, this has been a really interesting conversation. I like, you've got wheels turning in my brain and I'm now thinking about like, where am I hearing squeaking and where am I hearing like, while the wheels are falling off and you know, all the things. And so I really, I really love that. And I'm sure the listeners are kind of thinking about those things too. But before we leave, please do share a little bit of where people can find you.
Michelle MacNeil (25:31)
you
Yeah, so the best place to keep in touch with me is my email list because they get all the fun stuff first. When I talk about the farm, spring is coming. So that means baby animals and lots of cute stuff. Email list gets them first. Then it's LinkedIn. Those are the two places you'll find me is in my email. Well, I guess in your email and on LinkedIn. I may play with Instagram later this year, but we'll see. We'll see what my capacity looks like. I really like sharing the baby.
Laura Kendrick (26:07)
Ooh, nice.
Michelle MacNeil (26:26)
animals so I just need more avenues for that. ⁓ Yeah I swear that's the only reason I have an email list is because people love the animals.
Laura Kendrick (26:28)
Fair, I know, you need to...
You need to develop a new rhythm for Instagram that's only during baby animal season and that's it.
Michelle MacNeil (26:38)
Yeah, it might be because it's only thing Instagram worthy out here. Everything
else is muddy and covered in poop.
Laura Kendrick (26:46)
And on that note.
Michelle MacNeil (26:47)
Yep!
Laura Kendrick (26:49)
my gosh, Michelle, thank you so much for being here. I just appreciate you so very much.
Michelle MacNeil (26:55)
Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Brittany, this is gonna be so good. Thank you for being here.
Brittany Herzberg (00:13)
Of course, thanks for having me! Get ready for giggles, everyone.
Laura Kendrick (00:16)
my gosh, for sure. Okay, though before we start the giggles, do tell the people who don't know who you are but should know who you are a little bit about yourself.
Brittany Herzberg (00:24)
I mean, first of all, rude. I'm kidding.
My name is Brittany Herzberg. I am an SEO strategist and coach, and I got here by way of being a Starbucks barista and a massage therapist and then COVID. So there were lots of things, but the very abbreviated version is that I closed my massage practice in North Carolina, moved to Vermont. My boyfriend and I wanted to be in New England. We didn't know where, so we knew we were going to be like hopping around. And I tried opening another massage practice. No one came to me for like a month and a half. And then all of sudden, magically, one day there was a couple who was actually on their honeymoon.
Laura Kendrick (00:34)
Nice.
Mm.
Brittany Herzberg (00:57)
They googled, they found me, they booked with me. And I was like, what happened? How did that work? What do I need to do? How do I replicate it? Discovered that it was SEO, jumped down that massive rabbit hole. And once I saw how simple it was, I was like, I have to break out the megaphone and tell everyone about this. So that's been my mission for the last however many years.
Laura Kendrick (01:18)
I love it. love it. SEO was actually one of the first rabbit holes I went down to ⁓ as a copywriter and marketer. Like that was figuring out how to blog with intentionality was like, ⁓ let's do this thing. So I totally right there with you. Amazing. OK, so here's something that has come up. I've heard come up in conversations, interestingly, amongst copywriters who sometimes I just kind of like shake my head. I'm like, ⁓ To be fair.
Brittany Herzberg (01:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (01:47)
I think a lot of people shake their head at me too, so it's fine. But yeah, for sure. So I've heard in some circles people saying that SEO is dead.
Brittany Herzberg (01:52)
the shaking is going around? Yes.
Laura Kendrick (02:03)
I love that that was your reaction.
Brittany Herzberg (02:06)
I was like, don't know where you're going with this. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (02:09)
Let's unpack that.
Brittany Herzberg (02:12)
of a chair. yeah, no, it's not. It's not. Very much not. I think the reason, I would love to know if this is also true with what you're hearing, but I think the reason that we're hearing SEO is dead is because people are like, AI is on the scene and that's taken over and it's like, buddy, AI is working. The search is working because SEO foundations are there. Some sort of them. Whether or not you realize you have them, whether or not it's like duct tape and like super glue, or if it's like a very well thought out strategy, one way
Laura Kendrick (02:32)
Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (02:42)
another, that's why you're showing up in AI search for things you like, for things you don't like, for reasons that make sense, for reasons that don't make sense, but SEO is still very much a thing and it's how it's like powering a lot of those AI searches.
Laura Kendrick (02:57)
Yeah,
was it in your email? Or maybe it could have been on one of the 30 seconds I was scrolling on social media. Somebody put something about how Google's reach, or the percentage of people searching with Google has gone down, but only by 1%. So from 90 % to 89 % of searches in the world are now Google. that made my head go. It made me do that same laugh. I'm like, ⁓ it's dead, is it?
You
Brittany Herzberg (03:28)
You say? That's the thing. And then I've also, I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I did see a statistic where people are doing AI searches. They're seeing things pop up and they are still going to Google to like kind of get that second win, that like proof that it's like really? But really? Because we still have a lot of hesitation with AI. Yes, it's there. Yes, it works. Yes, it goes at the speed of light and it's still new.
Laura Kendrick (03:46)
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and it also kind of goes off on its own, whereas like a Google search is much more, you know, it's my intentionality. Like I know what I'm looking for versus AI that translates it. think just yesterday, I love it every time, not that we need to go down an AI rabbit hole, but I love it every time they do an update. It's like a shot in the dark, whether or not it gets better or worse. Yesterday, it was worse, where I was like, what are you doing? Why is this happening? Yes.
Brittany Herzberg (04:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Prove this crap.
Laura Kendrick (04:24)
Can you understand me? But it's versus Google. Like when I Google something, it's right there. Like, yep, that's what I was looking for. I was looking for vitamin C. Thank you for giving me vitamin C.
Brittany Herzberg (04:25)
You
Yeah.
But are you sure
you don't want vitamin E, D, K? How about that's that's one thing that actually annoys a mess out of me when I go use AI. It's like, do you want me to do this? No, I wanted you to do that. And I actually got sassy with it the other week. I was like, no, that is what I am doing. I need you to do this. I'm doing the rest of it. I was like typing this stuff out and it's like, OK, that's a great use of me. I was like, know. Thanks for the approval. Appreciate that.
Laura Kendrick (04:48)
Woo, yeah.
Yeah
Okay, so with searching though, like I came into, and I think so many of us do, when we first think about SEO, or like when the world is telling us we need to think about SEO, so often it gravitates towards you blog, write a blog, put up a blog, and like, you know, the basic rules of SEO, like follow them all, post consistently, whatever that means, like the word count, the headers, like the keywords, all the things.
But as we were talking before we hit record, it's so much more than just a blog. So let's dive in there too, because I think that is something that we need to crack open in our minds for, I mean, I know I do. I know I'm just scratching the surface with SEO, but I also know how important it is.
Brittany Herzberg (05:45)
Yeah.
It does it goes everywhere. So I'll walk us through in the order that I like approaching it that I've seen like be the most beneficial I mean, can't help it. Okay, so we're gonna start on your website Website is your home base. You're you really want to be doing SEO with your main website pages first So that's gonna be your home page about any services pages even any like opt-in pages freebie pages landing pages sales pages Like I could go on there's so many pages. There's all the pages, but this is the thing. There's so many pages
Laura Kendrick (06:10)
my God, there's so many pages.
Brittany Herzberg (06:16)
Which equals there's so many opportunities for you to show up when and where someone is searching So does it feel a little overwhelming? Mm-hmm. Have I found a way to make it not feel like a fire hose? Nope. It just is what it is So main website pages look to your navigation bar. Look to your footer Those are like the pages you really want to be starting with or it maybe they're not linked But it's like a freebie or a sales page that you're sending people to frequently You want to start there then? Yes, we love blogs. We love blogging. We love having the blogs optimized
Laura Kendrick (06:18)
Yeah, it's true.
Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (06:46)
So I still kind of consider that part of your website, but that's where we're moving a little more into content for some people content also looks like YouTube videos podcast episodes Maybe they're only podcast guesting. Maybe they don't have their own show Maybe they are going and doing lots of speaking engagements and they've got content that kind of thing. Anything that's content off your site but and also on your site and I really do love for people to have the YouTube videos in the podcast episodes come back and be blog posts on their website because
that gets people to do one of the really important things and hang out on your website because they can listen, they can watch right there on your website and the thing and they can leave comment. Like it's a beautiful thing. So you really want to have that coming back to your website. There's also content like social media posts, like threads, Instagram, TikTok, whatever the thing may be that can also be optimized. And then any kind of like profiles or directory listings. So social media profiles, again, Instagram, threads, LinkedIn, TikTok. I mean, can rattle thousands of them off.
Laura Kendrick (07:22)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (07:46)
and directory listings. That's a big one for a lot of therapists that I work with, mental health professionals. It's also like I'm listed in a directory or two actually maybe where it's like people have put together these are my trusted list of service providers and so I get to be on that list. So I'm even making sure that those are optimized to make sure people know why they need to contact me, what I actually do, who I help, that kind of thing. So we've got all of these things. Guest appearances, I mean there are so many, so many things you could optimize.
Laura Kendrick (07:51)
yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (08:15)
Thanks
Laura Kendrick (08:16)
Yeah, I was just talking to somebody too about that GIFs, creating your own GIFs can help increase your domain authority because it's attached to your domain, which is like, whoa. Yeah, if you create a Giphy account and start building the GIFs. I know, here we're all going to look like such morons doing weird dances and like.
Brittany Herzberg (08:29)
That's cool, I never thought about that.
⁓ snap.
Right?
It's all good. It's
all for the sake of visibility. Yeah, please. I want to see it.
Laura Kendrick (08:45)
challenge. ⁓ And if you do send them our way. I want to hear them. I want to see them. ⁓
So that's and I think that's an important part too is the domain authority, which that actually leads me back to like there's this kind of plug I want to put out into the world too that if you are a host of a collaborative event or like you have a podcast and there are you have guests.
I was on one podcast once that early on, this person knows better. I know them personally. They know better. And I'm like, damn it, why? But when they did links, they linked to my Instagram. Yeah, and I'm like, no, the backlinks matter. You have to think about who you are, what you need. Having somebody backlink to your site, which also goes to if you're guesting on something.
Brittany Herzberg (09:25)
No!
Laura Kendrick (09:40)
don't and the person says what would you like me to link to don't give your Instagram because my Mark Zuckerberg does not need any more back linking like he's good he's fine we're not here to like do that for his domain authority is just fine we we're looking for ours so that's the like the thing that i've been since that happened i'm like okay
Brittany Herzberg (09:45)
Yeah, don't say a peep. It's not your Instagram, friend. No.
Laura Kendrick (10:06)
So now I have to be like really strategic and unless they directly ask and are like, can I have your social media? I ignore it entirely and everything is linked to something on my site and not even, though I don't know, here's a question. When you have like a funnel software, so if you're using like lead pages or many of those funnel thingies, I can't think of any of other ones right now. That's what happens. Yeah, it's good. ⁓ Does that?
Brittany Herzberg (10:27)
Perfect timing.
Laura Kendrick (10:33)
act as like domain authority too. So if you like link to a funnel software, like a landing page on a funnel software, will that do the same thing or will it kind of be doing its own thing and not helping your domain?
Brittany Herzberg (10:44)
Like would a Linktree or a Bitly count too for kind of what you're thinking?
Laura Kendrick (10:49)
Sure,
I don't know.
Brittany Herzberg (10:51)
What you want to make sure is that it's a page on your site. So like when people come through my SEO program, I make sure that they are building out or at least advise them that they should be building out a links page. So for anyone who's used like Linktree, Bitly, that kind of thing, I think even like Funnel Breezy might be one of like the funnel landing pages type of thing. That's their stuff as far as I understand. It's like their pages. You want it to be like BrittanyHersberg.com or whatever your website is.com. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (11:03)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Right? That was,
yeah, that's an interesting, I've been thinking about that because I'm getting to the point in my business where I have always been building all those things on my own site. like now when you're like SEO the pages, I'm like, there's so many, because every like collaborative event that's needed its own separate landing page with its own separate button and its own separate way in, like there are some offers that have like 20 different landing pages for them.
Brittany Herzberg (11:33)
I know.
Laura Kendrick (11:46)
And it is nutso bedutso. also, it's like, mean, part of it too is like, I'm just such a bootstrapper. Like, I'm like, do I really want to spend like $150 a month on a lead or landing page kind of software in addition to all the other softwares on the face of the planet that we need? But I'm also starting to get to a point where it's like, maybe. And that's something that popped up for me of like, ooh, but with that landing page.
Brittany Herzberg (11:56)
Yeah.
Maybe.
Laura Kendrick (12:15)
be like, could I SEO if I like, that help my domain if that landing page or would it be separate?
Brittany Herzberg (12:24)
I it's going to be separate. do think it's kind of like two questions. I think it's sending traffic not to your domain, at least at first, and then maybe it's coming back on. I don't know. I'd have to look through an actual example. But then the second question is you could, can optimize some of them for SEO. So like you want to see if there's something called an SEO title, a meta description. Those are the two pieces of copy that show up on the Google search results page. And a lot of them you can do that for, but I don't know if it's a direct play for you.
Laura Kendrick (12:32)
Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (12:53)
domain. Again, I'd have to probably look at an example to talk that through, but maybe is the answer we're go with. Maybe. Or it depends. My favorite.
Laura Kendrick (13:00)
I love it. I love it. I love a good maybe. That's solid.
Yeah. We're getting into the coach world now.
OK, so in this world of AI, where people are talking about SEO and AIO and domain authority and all the things, where can we start to lean into first? What should we be doing to try and build this up? Because I find this really interesting. As people are talking about SEO and AIO so intensely, and in particular, domain authority, they're talking about it in a moment where
The data proves that we are, as my friend Michelle says, not in a trust recession, but a trust depression. Trust has been documented for a long, long time in an annual report. And this year, it is lower than they've ever seen it before. So we basically don't trust humans that are not exactly like us, is what that's saying. So for humanity, we're just effed. But for marketing, it's something to think about.
Brittany Herzberg (13:41)
Mm.
Hmm
Laura Kendrick (14:03)
of like, are we doing this? But isn't that interesting how when the trust is low, we're thinking about how do we make our domain, our website trustable in this like quiet under the table kind of way. So with that in mind of like, we're trying to boost the trust. We're trying to get that domain authority so that we do get found on Google and AI now. And we can compete with as the algorithms seem to.
constantly be leaning more and more towards big companies and not smaller companies, how do we as these smaller companies really kind of, where do we start in this pool of like, what do I do?
Brittany Herzberg (14:43)
Yeah.
It's- it is a loaded question. So, it's a very- it's a very loaded question. There's- my brain's like, which road do we go down? There's like four options. I mean, we're done here. No. All hope is not lost. No. I just- I'm just like organizing it in my head. The first place I want you to start is to really know that all hope is not lost. I don't start people off with looking at your competitors. I really don't give a rat's toshie about your competi- I need you to be locked in on your vision.
Laura Kendrick (14:46)
You're welcome.
So we should just end the call now, right?
Yeah. Me neither.
Brittany Herzberg (15:13)
So I really want people starting off with answering three questions. Who do you help? How do you help them? And what does a referral from a friend sound like? Which really that one is getting at like, why are you different? Why you? Why should they be coming to you? And there is a reason just like dig into it. Those questions, they sound so cute and simple and fun and like they are super confronting. So just know that that's like that's part of it. It's baked in and it really does call you forward to be like, I am this. I work with these people. I do this thing. This is why I'm like
Laura Kendrick (15:22)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (15:43)
such a rock star. There is a reason. like sit with that 15 minutes, lock it in on a timer, just do it. Once you get that done, that's really going to help you feel more confident and really like plant your flag in certain things. It's going to help you find the right keywords that you can then put in the right different places on your website and off your website and even in some of those like guessing things that we were talking about.
So once you have those answers and you've done some keyword research, I really want you to start with your homepage. I want you to start there. And then from there, if it feels really overwhelming to try to look at the other website pages that you have, start with like three blog posts, like the next three blog posts. Have those really be focused on some of those answers to the questions that I asked. Who are you helping? What are your offers? All those kind of things. Like just have them in some way, or form speak to that in the blog post titles, in the blog post themselves.
Help put like turbo boosters on your homepage SEO strategy that you did and then you can start looking off your site do maybe like two social profiles or something with guesting materials coming up because that Whole combination is going to help it so that your digital footprint is really helping You know call you out for that thing that you want to get found for and that's how it's going to help build trust because then you've got this cohesive thing that's showing up in several different places on on the interwebs you've
got this very clear thing that you're talking about once people land on a profile on your website on a blog post and it just really like puts that beacon puts that like spotlight not a beacon puts a spotlight on you in a good way so that it's like this is the person you need this is the thing you've been looking for and it makes you the obvious choice the obvious answer
Laura Kendrick (17:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, and
it does it in a way. It's funny because I hear in the branding world and also in the copy world, they talk about how things need to look the same. if your sales page all has one font and a color scheme and the same pictures, and when they click the button, they go to a checkout page in Thrivecart. Pick the same damn font.
pick the same damn color. They need to recognize that they actually went to the right place and that this is the same. But what you're saying with SEO does the exact same thing. So it's like they land and it's recognizable. It's like all of these pieces come together and play together. And yes, this is the same person. It's giving that domain authority, but it's also giving that human authority that we're looking for of yes, this is what this person is really actually all about.
Brittany Herzberg (17:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's the cohesive message. And it really is. And I think that's one thing that I was able to bring into SEO because I do have the copywriting background. And I do see like the little bits of messaging, which not all SEO people see that and not all copywriters see the SEO side of things. So I'm like right here on the tightrope and I'm like, no, come on here, friend, and you can come on too.
Laura Kendrick (18:32)
Yeah. Right.
Yeah. Yeah,
yeah. And isn't that like the, and that's the special sauce that makes Britney special. Like that's the cool stuff that is that like what's in the referral thing is that that little bitty edge that, and sometimes you might not understand what it is. And I think that's, that's key. Like if you're really lost of like, I don't know what makes me special, ask somebody. Cause I remember, yeah, truly. Cause I remember early on in my copywriting days, I didn't understand that
Brittany Herzberg (18:53)
Yeah.
Yes, please.
Laura Kendrick (19:07)
A lot of copywriters don't understand marketing strategy. That's just not what they do. people would come through my world, and they'd be like, damn. And I'm sitting here assuming, ⁓ it's not a big deal. This is what everybody does. like, no, it's not. And it's like, ⁓ OK. So you have to kind of, if you can't see it because you assume that everybody else does it, you just got to ask and see what comes up for people. Because that can be really helpful.
Brittany Herzberg (19:33)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (19:36)
OK, so I have a question that's kind of burning in my head right now, and it's going back to the whole blogging thing. And it's also a little bit tied to YouTube. I don't know if you can speak too much to YouTube, but if you can, cool. If not, that's OK. Yeah, whatever. So there's that rule in SEO that you're supposed to update blogs as well at some cadence, that you go back to old ones and Google likes that when it gets refreshed.
Brittany Herzberg (19:39)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. It's fine. Whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (20:06)
Is there kind of a best practice for how often, how to do that, what should be happening? And this is where I assume that applies to YouTube as well, that it wants that to be refreshed and updated from time to time. I don't know if you can speak to YouTube, but.
Brittany Herzberg (20:20)
I would think
I can't super speak to that. Jamar Diggs is like my YouTube guy. Like if you're ever like in need, if you don't know Jamar Diggs, he's like the YouTube guy. I would imagine yes because it shows that you've got some, like you're still alive and things are still happening over with your business. ⁓ Google wants to always go where the party's at. So if it sees you making tweaks and optimization and like whatever, updating things, it does like that. It sees that you care.
Laura Kendrick (20:25)
All right.
Nice.
Right. Right.
Brittany Herzberg (20:46)
So I don't really have a hard and fast rule about how often to go back and when to do that. What I'm doing though, so I've got the three phase process that I walk people through. Understand SEO, implement SEO, maintain SEO. Implementing is the toughest. That's kind of what we were already talking about. And then maintenance is where it gets to be like the easiest, breathiest. And you're like, am I really doing enough though? And yes, you are. That's the whole reason I love this marketing strategy, because it is so sustainable.
Laura Kendrick (21:10)
Yeah. Yes, it
is.
Brittany Herzberg (21:12)
but what that looks like is I do this for myself, I do this for clients, I do this in one of my membership programs. We are looking at our SEO reports, usually the first week of the month, just once a month. I am not looking at this weekly. Please, for the love of everything, do not look at your data weekly. I'm having a conversation with some clients right now. Don't do that, it's not helpful for anyone at all. So once a month, we are looking at the data and we're looking at, these are some pages that are showing up but they're not getting a whole bunch of clicks. That's an opportunity for us to check out SEO titles,
descriptions, even the H1 headline, even going through and looking at your headline hierarchy. So how things are organized because the AI robots really do need that in order to understand your pages quickly. So those are some things you could go back and look at. One of the main things that I would just like stick a star here as a pro tip, at least have one button with your blog posts and have that be like the big thing of like where you want to send people next. Hyperlinks are amazing. They're great. And people are visual.
to see the big thing in our face, so have one button for that main thing that you want to drive them to next. But that's what I'm doing, that's what I'm looking at. And usually from that we're able to find two or three different blog post pages, website pages that we're able to go and review those things, optimize, update them on your website host, and then you do want to submit it to Google Search Console for something called indexing.
used to freak me out. So I'm going to say this because I was like, I don't that sounds techie and complicated and like coding is involved. No, it is so simple. And I felt like such an idiot once I started doing it because I was like, that was so that was so that took no time at all. It's the difference. It's the right. mean, it literally is like type the link, hit enter, say yes, and then dismiss it. Like, that's it. But it's the difference between Google like driving by your house and seeing balloons on the mailbox and being like, guess something's happening over there. But I didn't get an invite versus
Laura Kendrick (22:49)
Yeah, click the button on.
Brittany Herzberg (23:06)
is here you go here's a hand-delivered handwritten invitation to come to the party. So it's just letting it know bit faster which helps you show up a bit faster.
Laura Kendrick (23:15)
Yeah,
and I love ⁓ that very first SEO training I ever took ages ago. The person who ran it, I couldn't even tell you their name now, whoops. But I remember her saying, she framed the algorithm for Google in a different way than most people frame social media. Most people frame social media as we're fighting the algorithm. We're trying to make it.
I don't know, dance around it and make it, like force it into doing what we want it to do. But she was talking about, she framed it in like Google's algorithm is trying really hard to figure out who the right people are for you and who you are the right people for. Like it's almost like a matchmaker. And so it's like, instead of fighting it, we just have to work with it. And so what is happening is we're giving it all these cues of like, this is who.
Brittany Herzberg (24:03)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (24:11)
I love, and this is who I want to play with, and this is who I want to come to my party, and here's the invitation. And Google's trying to figure out who on the other end of it is the ideal fit for them so that the people who are searching actually land on the right website, which is, I love that reframe, because it makes it feel like we're doing something.
Brittany Herzberg (24:15)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (24:36)
positive and active versus like, you know, fighting a battle to get found and seen.
Brittany Herzberg (24:42)
Right, no it's not at all a battle. It very much is like a matchmaker and it wants to help you so badly that the robots are guessing. If you don't give it information, they're guessing. Like, I see this, maybe they do this, or maybe they want to work with this person. All you have to do is give it a little bit of information and they can give you much better suggestions. You can actually show up as the answer to a googled question that someone is typing because my favorite, my favorite thing to do is people are like, so I'm not like no one's searching for this. I'm like say that one more time and I'm going over to
Laura Kendrick (24:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Brittany Herzberg (25:12)
keyword research software typing in stuff and at like 9.5 times out of 10 things are showing up if not verbatim very close and they're like ⁓ yeah people want what you have sometimes you have to use words you don't really love like I work with a lot of coaches and healers and they don't like using healer they don't like using coach and it's like it is what it is I'm sorry we just need to call it that's right now yeah
Laura Kendrick (25:21)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's voice a customer, right? Yeah, you got
to lean into what it is that your people call it, whether or not it's comfortable for you. You can definitely speak to in your messaging why that's uncomfortable for you and why you prefer different language. And you can certainly start to change the vernacular. But to call the right people in, especially in early days, if you aren't some force of nature on the internet and you don't have this huge authority space.
then yeah, you gotta speak their language in order to get the people in. So yeah, yeah, totally get that.
Brittany Herzberg (26:06)
Yeah,
that's definitely a conversation I have a lot with people and it's like I know you hate this, you're allowed to hate this, and that's what people are typing. So can we just like agree to put it right here just for a little bit?
Laura Kendrick (26:15)
Right, right.
And then in the welcome email, you can be like, you type this word, this is why you're wrong.
Brittany Herzberg (26:21)
I hate this, but it is what it is. My SEO person told me I had to... yeah, anyway. It's my little sub box moment.
Laura Kendrick (26:26)
you
before I wrap it up, is there anything else we should touch on?
Brittany Herzberg (26:32)
I would just say, like, I have this conversation quite a bit with people where they're like, I'm too late, or I can't do SEO until blank. No, if you have those answers to those questions.
of who do you help, how you help them, what does a referral sound like from a friend, and you should have those answers, or at least what you hope those answers to be, you've got enough where you can do SEO. You're not too late, you can start now, you can start small, you can start in small waves. I have seen even something as simple as retitling some images with keywords really help people get found, make sales, like it's wild. So just start taking, even if it feels like baby steps, that's what makes this such a sustainable marketing strategy.
Laura Kendrick (27:10)
Yeah,
I couldn't agree more. It is my favorite marketing strategy. It's the one that I have consistently shown up to for years, because it's just so simple to post a blog once a week, most weeks, and to, I mean, yeah, to be fair, like it's imperfect, but it's like most weeks I show up and it's there and it like, you know, and it feels really easy to just write that, put it out into the world and away we go. And then I have to say,
One of the coolest moments in my business life was the very first time somebody just booked a call with me and in the form of how'd you find me, it was Google. And I'm like, damn, really?
Brittany Herzberg (27:49)
Yes.
Yes, isn't that that's still I still get that's my reaction even when my clients have it happen Even when they've paid me money to come through program I showed them how to do this and i'm like, I know it's so exciting right it still works like
Laura Kendrick (28:03)
It is,
because it's not something you're actively doing. Like, you you launch and you're so emotionally tied, energetically tied to it. Like it is such a huge outpouring and you get into this space and it's like how it goes, you're so emotionally tied to it. So if it goes really well, you're like, yes. And if it goes really poorly, you're beating yourself up. And it is like an emotional roller coaster the whole time it's open. And I get that. And like that has its time and place too.
But man, when it comes out of the blue, it is akin to when you find $20 in your pants pocket come out of the dryer. And you know that definitely came from your wallet. That's your $20. Santa didn't drop that in there. You're good. But also it's like, $20? What? It's so exciting.
Brittany Herzberg (28:36)
Yeah!
going to start using that.
That is a perfect, perfect picture. It's perfect.
Laura Kendrick (28:56)
So exciting. It's so exciting.
it really, though, at the end of the day, it didn't take a ton of a huge burst of energy. It's a slow burst of energy. And yes, I agree the idea of going through and updating, even though I know that this is actually on my bingo card for 2026. We've talked about this. I've talked about this with all the people I know who do SEO. I need to do this and make sure everything's kind of redone.
the SEO, like the stuff on my images is not up to par. Like I definitely need to go through and do it all, but it is, and it does feel daunting, but also they're like small little nuggets. Cause you can totally like, I'm going to do two pages today. And then, you know, two days from now, I'm going to do two more. And it like, you're going to see those upticks happen, which is so good. So good. It's amazing. It is, it is. Brittany, thank you so much for being here.
Brittany Herzberg (29:48)
Mm-hmm. It's so fun.
Laura Kendrick (29:55)
This was so good and so fun as I knew it was gonna be so fun.
Brittany Herzberg (29:57)
I know, thanks for having me.
I was looking forward to this.
Laura Kendrick (30:03)
Me too, me too. Before we go though, do share where can the people find you on the Big Bad Interwebs.
Brittany Herzberg (30:11)
So I do actually enjoy, ironically, hanging out on Instagram. Also, I have noticed that people who tend to be like, I should jump ship from here and go do SEO, they tend to be on Instagram. So I'm making more of an effort to actually show up there, but I'm always in my DMs and I'm always in my stories over there. ⁓ My website is BrittanyHersberg.com. Of course, you can go check that stuff out. She's getting revamped in all of the ways this year. We've just had a rebrand. I'm rewriting my website copy, which is always fun to do that for yourself.
Laura Kendrick (30:21)
Mm-hmm.
That's
also on my to-do list and it's been on my to-do list by the way for two years.
Brittany Herzberg (30:43)
Yeah, six months-ish over here. I'm like, ugh, and I really started thinking about it a year ago. So I'm like, dang it, I just need to do it.
Laura Kendrick (30:49)
yeah, seasoned
listeners to this summit who have been in all three seasons have heard me mention it every single season. Also by the by, it has not yet happened.
Brittany Herzberg (30:54)
You
But that's okay because you've busy helping clients and living life and all the things. gosh, it's such a big task, but we're getting copy rewritten. I'm redoing my SEO. I'm getting more strategic with my own SEO because I've been pouring so much into clients. I'm like, yeah, this is my business. I would like it to also be able to celebrate those wins too. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (31:15)
Great.
think we're all guilty of that, of like, you know, we're so
busy doing the things with our clients, we forget to do it for ourselves.
Brittany Herzberg (31:25)
So
the more I say this out loud to people, it's just like resonating with everyone. They're like, yeah, me too. I know, it's a thing. ⁓ I also have a podcast, if you like hearing me chat, it's called The Basic Bee. I go really deep on SEO. The first kind of year that it was out, 2024, I was like, SEO, social proof and storytelling. And now I've really honed in on SEO and it's gotten a lot more with solo episodes and I try to make them nugget sized so you can listen and go do with them.
Laura Kendrick (31:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (31:55)
We have those are the main places I would say that we could hang out and if you are like I want to learn about SEO, I want to do SEO, I've got a DIY self-paced course option, I've got a program that is turning evergreen as we speak because like what's you know another project to throw in there? Why not? But I love helping people so if you have any questions none of them are dumb. I would love to hear them. I would love to help you. I'm over here. Come find me.
Laura Kendrick (32:21)
And Brittany's emails are like, they're the best. So I enjoy them. Yeah, yeah, they're so good.
Brittany Herzberg (32:24)
Thank you! She does, and she actually replies and tells me that
she enjoys them, which feels like a giant gold star for the day, and I love that.
Laura Kendrick (32:34)
I actually have somebody who does that to me and I agree. It's a friend of mine who replies and is like, great email, that simple. like, girl, do you ever sleep? Just little nuggets like that. So by the way, this is my tip for this summit episode. If you know somebody who's, you're on their list, hit reply sometimes and just send those things. It really does. It feels good when you're like, ⁓ you're reading this? Yeah.
Brittany Herzberg (32:55)
Yeah, even an emoji. You could just send them
the gold star emoji, right? And then it's like, that's it. It's a tiny little thing. So thank you for being that person for me.
Laura Kendrick (33:01)
Yeah, yeah, so good. ⁓ yay, yay.
All right, well, thank you so much for being here and yeah, just thank you.
Brittany Herzberg (33:11)
Thank you! This
was great! Talk to you later!
Laura Kendrick (33:16)
Now I have to figure out to hit stop instead of leave.
Ads as a Nurture Tool.
Why $5/Day Video View Ads Beat Expensive Conversion Ads Every Time
-
Allison Harpole-Coley is the coach business owners call when FB & IG ads feel confusing, but they want to feel confident and get results running them - without hiring an agency.
She is the Founder and CEO of Harp & Oaks, a digital advertising company that helps business owners grow and scale with Facebook & Instagram ads. She is a certified public relations practitioner and began her career at an award-winning PR firm in Nashville, working with nationally recognized brands like Kirkland’s and Blue Cross Blue Shield, before leaving agency life to pursue entrepreneurship back home in Kentucky. After realizing Facebook & Instagram ads weren’t just marketing, but a growth lever, Allison had a defining “aha” moment. She realized she wasn’t just good at running ads, but she was exceptionally skilled at teaching them in a way business owners actually understood.
That realization led her to coach dozens of online entrepreneurs and ultimately launch The Digital Ad Academy by Harp & Oaks, where she teaches business owners how to confidently run their own ads with her 10-Minute Ad Check Method — without the guesswork or overwhelm. Through her work, Allison has helped client make significant achievements with ads, including adding $80,000 in revenue for a business, generating more than $1 million in qualified lead value for a business, and scaling live launch revenue from $55K, on avg, to over $100K and beyond for a business. She was named Top 40 Under 40 by VUE Magazine and has been featured in Influencive and Canvas Rebel. -
Fast-track your ads without the guesswork! This free bundle gives you an AI ad creator, plug-and-play Canva templates, and a step-by-step mini course to launch your first profitable ad fast. No big budget or complex funnels needed. Just simple, strategic ads that attract leads and drive sales.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Allison, Allison, Allison, thank you so much for being here. I'm like truly excited about this thought process with ads. So thank you for being here.
Allison Harpole-Coley (00:19)
⁓ I am so excited, Laura. This is gonna be so much fun.
Laura Kendrick (00:22)
It really is, it really is. Okay, so before we jump in, tell the people who don't know who you are just a little bit about you.
Allison Harpole-Coley (00:30)
Okay, perfect. Well, I'm an ad expert and I have spent the past nine years running ads for clients. And a few years ago, I was thinking about the fact that everything that I was doing, I was having to do really efficiently because I was managing lots of clients, right? So it's getting in the ads manager out of the ads manager. And I started thinking, you know what? Most people need to be able to learn how to do this themselves to really make the most out of the amount of money that they're spending on ads. And I realized that there was this pattern
that I was creating. And so I thought, well, I wonder if I could just teach this to business owners exactly what I was doing. So I started putting pen to paper and writing down what that pattern was. And so now I teach it to business owners, which I love. So I still run ads for clients, but I am largely shifting to mostly teaching business owners how to efficiently and confidently run their ads in less than 10 minutes a day. That's my whole thing, 10 minutes a day.
Laura Kendrick (01:25)
All right. I need that in my life. So.
Allison Harpole-Coley (01:29)
It's good stuff. It's good stuff.
Laura Kendrick (01:32)
Outside of like, okay, cool. We're gonna have to talk about that later, but for right now. I want to focus on, here's, this is so interesting that you are talking today about ads as a nurture device, which is so not how most people think. Like, yes, we build funnels with ads, but usually it's starting with.
cold and it is like how do get more reach and so we're we're always at top of funnel but now you're talking about getting into that middle funnel zone and like my gosh all the juiciness there go.
Allison Harpole-Coley (02:10)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have to retrain the brain of business owners a lot of times because every business owner I talk to, and I feel confident saying pretty much every business owner thinks of ads as like, okay, I'm going to run an ad, put it in front of people, send them to my sales page. They're going to check out, become a customer. Boom.
Laura Kendrick (02:29)
⁓
yeah, that's not how it works.
Allison Harpole-Coley (02:32)
No, unfortunately, it's not. wish it did. Really, I wish it did. It'd make my life easier. it's like all. Yeah, for sure. And it's not to say that can't be done, but it's really costly. You need a lot of data. Meta needs to know you. When I say Meta, like Meta owns Facebook, Instagram. ⁓ so anyways, I really have to retrain that brain process or the thought process of it and say, look, you first have to just exist.
Laura Kendrick (02:39)
easier.
Allison Harpole-Coley (03:00)
in the world of your audience. If you are not an option, they are not going to choose you. So that's where ads are really powerful because as we know, like organic reach has just tanked over the years. It is so hard to move the needle organically. So if you use ads, you can do it on a really low budget. Like I tell my members inside my ad academy, like you can spend $5 a day on these types of ads. Like we're not breaking the bank here. I just want you to get in front of your ideal customers that
will translate in the future. These are your leads and customers in the future. But first, like they just need to get to know you. They have to like, know and trust you first. And that's what these ads are designed to do.
Laura Kendrick (03:39)
I love it. And it's funny as you say that because I, I like, I have not been on Facebook since for years. Like I was one of the early subscribers. Like I remember when you needed a like.edu. had one of those. yeah. Mark Zuckerberg and I are, think the same graduating class. So, you know, like same age, but it, I kind of fell off of Facebook. And when I set up all my business accounts, I was like, I don't need Facebook. I don't want a Facebook page.
And I separated them. And then because of a scheduling tool I'm using, had to go through all the pain of creating a Facebook page and then trying to connect it. it's so funny that you say the growth because I'm just at the moment, like anything I put on Instagram, I'm like, sure, send it over to Facebook. Zero followers. my God. Zero. And I mean, it's only been going for a couple of weeks, but also I don't care that much at the moment. would say because Facebook is not a place I'm showing up. But it is funny how like
sending these posts out and like, nothing is happening.
Allison Harpole-Coley (04:41)
Exactly, right? you spend, and here's the thing too, you know, when it comes to reels, I don't know about you, Laura, I spend so much time creating a reel. mean, so much time. And so the last thing that I want to happen is to work so hard on this reel, post it on Instagram or Facebook, and then it just get crickets because that's a waste of your time. That's a waste of your energy. So that's really why I promote doing it this way is like, let's make sure these reels that you're working really hard to post actually get seen by people and the right people.
Laura Kendrick (05:09)
Yeah, 100%. I love that. yes, I mean, yes. So how are you kind of proposing that ads can be used as a nurture device?
Allison Harpole-Coley (05:19)
Yeah, so you start with these ads that I'm talking about, Which they're called video view ads. And what you're doing and the objective behind them is that you want to get people to watch these reels. That's the whole point of them. And now I tell this to business owners and they're like, wait, hold on. So I'm not getting someone to actually purchase? I'm like, no, no, no, we're not even there yet. We're not even there yet. But there is so much value because if you can get somebody to watch like,
25 % of your reel, 50 % of your reel, 100 % of your reel, that is a new person who now knows you and they're starting to like you and they may even be starting to trust you. So then what you can do is Meta gathers this data and it's able to form a new audience from people that actually watch your reels. Now you're not gonna be able to see who those people are specifically, but Meta knows. And so when you go to create like a lead generation ad,
or like that purchase conversion ad, right? You can actually put that ad in front of these people. So now you're not having to put an ad in front of people who are completely cold and have no idea who you are, right? These are people who do know who you are. They've watched your reels and they're probably further along in your customer journey. So.
Laura Kendrick (06:34)
Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah. And so the goal of that, like, what do you click the setting? And to be fair, I haven't been in the backside of meta ads in probably a year or so. I might be using and meta. love meta and Google are the same to me, where it's like when someone's like, I'm going to the back end. I'm like, Godspeed. It's so deep and like widespread back there. And it changes every five seconds. It's like, my God. I feel like you need a map and a compass to move around.
Allison Harpole-Coley (07:02)
But
you're not wrong.
Laura Kendrick (07:05)
But how do you tick those? So it used to be that you were looking for likes or page likes or what? I don't even know. You had targeted things that you were looking for when you did that. So if you're doing nurture like you're talking about, how do you set those ads in the broads I know a lot of it is like, depends, and lots of things like that. But broadly, what's the checkbox you check?
Allison Harpole-Coley (07:31)
Yeah, well, it all starts by choosing the right campaign objective because that tells
Laura Kendrick (07:36)
That's
the word I'm looking for. Yeah, there you got it.
Allison Harpole-Coley (07:39)
That is what tells Meta what the result is that you want with your ad. If people tell me their ads are not working for them, I always look at this because odds are they're just not running the right campaign objective. ⁓ So you need to choose, it's actually engagement, which I know doesn't sound like it is probably the one that you would choose, but it's engagement. And then at the ad set level, you're gonna select that you want people to actually...
watch your reels or your videos is what they classify it as. So but if you set it up correctly, then the result is a through play. So to actually get people to watch the video, that is all you're looking for. And that is what I tell people. And again, like this is kind of mind blowing to them because they're like, no, no lead, no sell. And I'm like, nope, we're just getting people to watch your reels. But trust me, it's going to be super valuable. These are the foundational ads. So
So that's what you mostly do. And then of course you can choose your targeting like you normally would. ⁓ Some people like to use these ads to actually nurture their existing worm audience to move them further along their custody. I like to do that. I find that's really helpful. And almost always when I start running these types of ads, I let them go in the background all the time. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (08:55)
going
be my next question of like, are there cycles? Are they always going? Do you like, how long? Okay, here's a question. Yeah. Cause you kind of just answered that on your own without me asking. Well, intuitive. When you, when you first like set these up, as you said, foundationally, how long do you find that it takes to like warm up and find that audience for you?
Allison Harpole-Coley (09:20)
So not long at all. mean, you'll see results within probably a few minutes of your ad going live. Oh, holy crap. Yeah. But the result is that people are going to start watching your video, right? And so, and we can dive into like the metrics and all that geeky stuff if you want. yeah, so you're going to start accumulating that data insanely fast and it's going to cost you nearly nothing. Like if I see more than two cents per through play, you're probably spending too much money.
We need to adjust something. These are super, super cost effective ads.
Laura Kendrick (09:53)
Amazing. Amazing. So if you set these up, how long do you usually recommend for people to wait until they start doing kind of conversion based ads?
Allison Harpole-Coley (10:02)
⁓ well, that's a great question. It's dependent on how big their warm audience currently is. So if they are starting completely from scratch, don't like E or zero, maybe your zero Facebook page, but Hey, I bet you have some good following on Instagram. Do you?
Laura Kendrick (10:10)
zero Facebook page.
some, but here's, I've had a love hate relationship with Metta. like, and I made the mistake of starting the account. Like I got the, the name and then left it blank for like two or three years. So I didn't even grab the like new account goodness. And then I started the account and started doing things and you know, just my love hate relationship popped up and I was like, screw this. I'm going to do
just a nine grid and I left the nine grid there for probably two years and I have just gotten back into like actively trying to be in it. So no, the following on Instagram is sad at the moment for how long I've been in business and like how much actual growth I've seen. So yeah, like Meta itself for me personally is kind of a like, it's something I personally like I'm sitting here like chomping at the bit like, Alison, me more.
Allison Harpole-Coley (11:01)
Yeah, yeah.
I love it. Yeah, no. OK, so like if it's like you, Laura, where you're starting pretty much from scratch with your Instagram following, your Facebook following, ⁓ you know, if you don't have much of an email list, if you haven't installed your Pixel, that's a big one. If you have not installed your Pixel, all these things collectively, you probably are going to spend a little bit more time. Now, there's
This is where it gets really gray. I'm going be honest here. Very gray. I can't tell you like, for certain, if you have nothing, then wait 90 days or whatever. ⁓ I would say confidently, I probably would start these for the first 30 days and then I wouldn't even run a Legion ad. wouldn't do a conversion ad yet. But at the same time, I'd be growing your other audiences too so that they're all collectively working together. But yeah, but like I told you, I run this ad.
all the time. And I tell my members, I tell my clients like you should be running these ads all the time because they're so inexpensive and they just work for you in the background and they are very low maintenance, which is nice too.
Laura Kendrick (12:18)
Yeah. Do you, are you able to run the same video for a long period of time or do you feel like you have to? That's the part with ads that hurts my brain where it's like the, the AB testing and all it's like, Oh my God. Like, I can be as nerdy as I'll get out, but after a while it's like, can you just land on the magic pill and go.
Allison Harpole-Coley (12:38)
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And well, with these two, that's why they're a great starter ad. This is where I start everybody because it just like dips your toes in, you know, gets you acquainted enough, but that doesn't mind blow you. You know, you're not having to like get really into the weeds of the data because again, these ads are just running for you. And I'm, you know, I'll swap them out when I feel like it. I'm like, okay, that video has been running for a while. Like, let's swap it out. I've got a new reel that I want to test and just let it run.
⁓ But in terms of the data, do you want me to get into that a little bit? Would that be helpful? So that's the thing with these types of ads is that you can leave them running and you're probably not going to break them. Or if you really want to get strategic with them, you can. And so I can geek out about that.
Laura Kendrick (13:13)
nerd us out.
Allison Harpole-Coley (13:27)
But what I love to do is use these ads actually to see what my messaging, what type of my messaging is hitting with my audience. So you can have a reel where you start with.
Laura Kendrick (13:38)
preaching
to the choir there. No, like I hear it now. Now you've got my attention. Okay, go.
Allison Harpole-Coley (13:43)
Yeah, we can talk messaging all day, Laura. So yeah, so like I'll start and test a specific hook with a reel and then, you know, and have the messaging throughout that reel. And then I like to test maybe a completely different angle and then see which one does better. And how you're able to do that is you check your 25 % views, your 50 % views and your 100 % views. And this is all available for you inside the meta dashboard. But I will judge that and say, okay,
how, what's the percentage of the people that watched 25 % of my reel? How many of these people or what percentage of these people made it all the way through the reel? And I take that percentage and that's really important to me. And I'll judge that against the other reel that I'm testing against it. And that really gives me insight as to like which type of messaging is hitting for these people. And that tells me organically what I need to be working on. So it works with paid and organic. You it really combines the two.
and helps with your overall messaging because now you have data to support. Yes, the way that I'm talking to these people is what they're resonating with or not.
Laura Kendrick (14:52)
So do you find that when you're running these ads, I mean, for somebody like me, does it also grow your following?
Allison Harpole-Coley (14:59)
yeah, for sure. Yes. These types of ads usually do translate into ⁓ growth on your Instagram, on your Facebook. I almost always will see a DM come through when I run them. And again, you're not going to necessarily be able to tell that, right? From the dashboard. It's not going to tell you that, but like you'll be able to see the correlation. So, ⁓
Yes, and more comments usually come through. So yes, you will see an increase in engagement almost always when you're running these ads.
Laura Kendrick (15:29)
And I love this thought process because you're right. So many people think of this as ads are just the way to the transaction. yes, they can be. But also for those of us who don't have, because selling on social media is very hard unless you have a small product. Then it's sure, run with it.
My favorite is, it's very easy to sell on social media, how to sell on social media. Like those are my favorite people who are like, I made a million dollars last week teaching people how to use Instagram. It's like, of course you did. Cause all the people are on Instagram. To know how to use Instagram. But it, I love that you're taking this to a totally different place because it is hard to sell a high ticket item. It is hard to sell this like recurring revenue from just Instagram or Facebook alone.
Allison Harpole-Coley (16:05)
Why?
Laura Kendrick (16:21)
but adding this layer, like this feels so juicy to me. like, now I'm literally sitting here like I haven't been in the backside of Metta in so long and I'm like.
Allison Harpole-Coley (16:32)
Yeah. So you could run these. They're not hard to run and they are. They're that foundational ad. Most business owners skip this part. for sure. They're vital because if you don't have these types of ads, you are going to spend a fortune on those conversion ads. I'm not saying that you can't jump straight to conversion ads. You can, but it's going to cost you a lot more money than you probably want.
Laura Kendrick (16:52)
spaghetti at the wall. Yeah.
Yeah. And we were talking about this before I hit record back in 2020 when I was like, you know, fledgling copywriting business. And I'm like, how can we make more money right now? Working from home. I invested in a like a huge Facebook and like meta ads program to learn how I really didn't make it very far before I was like this. I don't think this is for me. But it that's like I think that was the part that I kind of got.
off on that it was so much throwing spaghetti at the wall and refining and refining and refining that it to me it just became like overwhelmed city and I was like okay I'm just gonna stick with the copywriting.
Allison Harpole-Coley (17:33)
Yeah, no, that's exactly it. And I find with most business owners can't handle that. It is too much. And then that's when they throw their hands up and say, I'm just going to hire an ad expert to do this. But this. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (17:43)
fixes it.
It helps support it because you're they're telling you like your audience is the ones telling you where they need the spaghetti to land and so you get just get to follow that. That's amazing.
Allison Harpole-Coley (17:55)
Yes, yes. And like I said, these are really inexpensive ads. Five bucks a day will do it. I usually run them at $10 just because I like a little bit more data. It just depends on what you're comfortable with. So yeah, just let them roll. That's all you have to do.
Laura Kendrick (18:09)
So good. Okay. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Like I truly headed into the back end of Meadow right now. ⁓ But before I do that, where can the people find you?
Allison Harpole-Coley (18:13)
Of course.
On Instagram, I would love for you guys to connect with me on Instagram. Send me a DM, say that you saw this. If you have any questions too, please do not hesitate to reach out. It's at at aliceinharpolcollege. You'll see me there. And yeah, I would love to connect with you guys.
Laura Kendrick (18:36)
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Alison. You've got all the gears in my brain turning and I
Allison Harpole-Coley (18:42)
my goodness, well it was such a pleasure Laura. I love speaking with you and now you have to go get into meta. You've got to run these ads now.
Laura Kendrick (18:48)
No, I mean now that I up to the Facebook page and actually put it on for this because I was previously playing for a different business like an older business and so now it's and for some clients too, but now I guess I gotta go play with this business. So yeah My compass and map
Allison Harpole-Coley (19:02)
You gotta do it, but these aren't any.
Yeah, that's right. I love it.
Laura Kendrick (19:10)
Well, thank you so much for being here.
Allison Harpole-Coley (19:13)
Of course, thank you, Laura.
Spark-First Messaging.
The Eight Human Elements That Make Your Copy Stand Out in an AI World
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Delia Monk is a messaging and positioning strategist who helps visionary leaders and coaches articulate the depth of their brilliance and build businesses that feel wildly aligned.
Using her signature Spark to Sales Method™, she captures your true and uncopyable essence and turns it into messaging that attracts soul-aligned clients and positions you as #1 in your space. -
A secret 5-part podcast that gives you the messaging and positioning tips to attract clients ridiculously excited to work with you
Boost Your Website’s Organic Traffic: The Must-Have Website Launch Blueprint
Stop hoping visitors will show up to your corner of the internet. Take the steps to drive real traffic to your site with this simple, actionable guide.
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Laura Kendrick (00:08)
Delia, Delia, Delia, welcome. I'm so glad you're here.
Delia (00:13)
I am so glad to be here Laura, thank you for having me.
Laura Kendrick (00:17)
be so fun. But before we
get into it, do share with the people who don't know who you are but really should know who you are a little bit about you.
Delia (00:26)
Okay, so I am a messaging and positioning strategist and sales copywriter, which basically means I help you figure out the real depth and magic of what you do. Like the stuff that your clients are always raving about you. And we kind of extract it and we put it in your messaging, love for it and send it to us. The people that haven't yet worked with you can see it. Because I feel like so many people are like, okay.
My clients say I'm amazing and I'm brilliant and they will pay anything. But how do I actually convey that to the rest of the world? So that's where I come in. Right? These people want to give me my money, more money. So why don't you? Headline hero.
Laura Kendrick (01:01)
without sounding like an a-hole. Without standing there and being like, everyone says I'm amazing. You should work with me.
God, I can't wait to see that website come up. ⁓
So good. And I am so excited you're here because, I mean, we're all taught this. And as a fellow copywriter, we're all taught this, that at the heart of what we're pulling out in messaging and into our copy are pain points. And we are folding in the buyer psychology and all the tidbits. And yes, those things matter in your copy, but you're talking about something else matters a heck of a lot more these days.
Delia (01:53)
Yeah, exactly. So what I'm feeling in this AI world, where a lot of people are sounding super polished and it sort of sounds great, but it's very surface level. A lot of people sounding the same. That basically our superpower right now is just embracing our wobbly, weird, quirky human-ness. And really bringing that into your copy. And so I call it your spark. So I call it like spark first messaging.
Laura Kendrick (01:58)
Mm-hmm.
Delia (02:22)
And, you know, I was reading a stat the other day that said 144 % of people, consumers, don't like lose trust in a brand if they believe the copy is written by AI. I don't know if you've seen that, it's by Deloitte. And I'm like, this is it, right? Whether you're using AI or not, it's all about bringing out your...
Laura Kendrick (02:37)
I haven't.
Delia (02:45)
your weird and wobbly humanness. And putting that into your messaging because more and more as trust is dropping, you know, it's not the same industry as it was like five years ago. That's less trust, AI's on the scene. The one thing that builds trust is emotional connection, human connection, and we're craving it. Like I don't know about you, but right now, anything that's like in real life or with people, I'm like, yes, give me more of it.
Laura Kendrick (02:48)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Delia (03:13)
So it's basically never been more important to just be bringing your human personality into your messaging.
Laura Kendrick (03:21)
Yeah, and I feel like that's the part that really connects to this summit as a whole is that so often, and with AI, but so often in marketing, we forget that there's a human being at the other end of this. And kind of the things that we're taught are about the numbers, the KPIs, the transactions, all this stuff. it's like, yeah, all of those numbers, yes, you need to understand your data. But
All of those numbers are happening because there's another human being that's interacting with you. And that's just a way to see it through the wires of the internet.
Delia (03:52)
Right? Yes!
Yes, right? And just bringing that human being out and like even embracing like weaknesses that we have, I think is a really powerful one. you know, one of my best performing emails that I wrote was where I'm talking about, I'm partially deaf and have to wear a hearing aid. I actually have to wear hearing aids, but I refuse and just wear one. Just hanging onto my youth by wearing one hearing aid instead of two.
Laura Kendrick (04:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
love that.
Delia (04:27)
can't fit me in an OAP home yet, love. And so, like, one of my best performing emails is all about this, when I first got diagnosed as being borderline deaf and how the doctor treated me and how kind and compassionate he was. And I was connecting that to, like, that's the emotional connection that we have and you want to be having with your audience in my email.
But everyone replied and was like, they weren't just talking about the learning, you know, they're just like, man, you're deaf, like that's so hard. Like, you know, COVID must've been so hard when everyone was masked and you couldn't lip read. I was like, yes, it was terrible. But like, know, bringing these kind of like, what might be perceived as a weakness into our messaging, into our emails, it's on my about page. Like stuff like this is just what brings connection. And people are like, people don't want perfect.
Laura Kendrick (05:01)
Yeah.
Hmm?
Delia (05:24)
If you're too perfect, they think, well, what's she hiding? yeah.
Laura Kendrick (05:28)
Right? Right. It's not real. Yeah, it's shiny. yeah,
it's I've yes, I've always like kind of pushed up against that perfectionism thing. But I couldn't agree more. And the the places where you're honest, actually just kind of I think it happened a week ago. The two weeks preceding that my kids delightfully brought home a stomach flu and it made its way through the entire family. And it was the gift that kept on giving.
And because it's just me and my business, and I happen to be one of those people who really thrives on creating content in the moment rather than scheduling way out. So for the most part, if you're getting an email from me, it's probably time stamped at like 2.53. And that's because when I literally hit send and I didn't schedule it, it's like an odd time. But the thing is, is I had in that moment, I was so like overtaken by laundry and like it was an ugly bug.
Delia (05:54)
⁓
Laura Kendrick (06:23)
I let go of all of the things. So I really was barely in my business for two weeks. And in that, I was supposed to be doing collaborations with a few people and I like, they all had their, you know, requirements of an email here or what have you. And one of them wasn't a requirement. It was just a lovely, like supportive thing of a friend. So I ended up sending out an email that was like the stomach bug hit us guys. And I, but I wanted to share this with you and it wasn't even a requirement thing. It was a, these are really great resources.
don't want you to miss out on them. One of them is like expiring tomorrow and I dropped the ball. And I was very honest about it and sent the like multiple links at once and was like, by the way, there will be more coming on these later on in the week. But so many people clicked and so many people hit reply of like, the stomach bug is the worst. And they were just right in there doing the things because it's the humanity of it. Like I could have pretended it wasn't happening and been like, don't forget you.
Delia (07:16)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (07:19)
click into this summit and click onto this thing. And instead people were, they took the invitation. They took the time to reply. Like it's just the humanity is what binds us. We forget.
Delia (07:32)
Yeah.
We do forget that. And like, this isn't something new. Like if you and I were talking five years ago, we would be saying, bring your personality out into your copy of, you know, it's not new, but it has never been more important than right now. Like I feel that before it was a nice to have, and now it's an absolute must have.
Laura Kendrick (07:50)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. What was the report that came out at the beginning of the year about the trust? forget the numbers don't stick in my head, so I have to be looking at them. we are genuinely in what my friend Michelle refers to actually as a trust depression. Like it is not a trust recession. The numbers are historically lower than they have ever been. Trust across the board. And it's not just marketing. It is, in essence, like...
as human beings, we're not in a great place right now where we don't trust people who aren't exactly like us. So that's an issue. As marketers, we can kind of see that and play with it. But also as humans, understanding we're having this experience as a whole where people are having a really hard time trusting anyone. so folding that, honestly, that compassion into our own marketing,
Delia (08:48)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (08:56)
my gosh, can you imagine like what people will feel when they walk into your marketing experience where you're saying, I see you and I understand this and I'm feeling it too and yes, I'm selling something but also we're people together.
Delia (09:12)
Right. And having that empathy. it's so, you know, we can geek out on this as fellow copywriters, but the classic copywriting ⁓ formula, which maybe some of you are familiar with is PASS. So the idea is you, you mentioned someone's pain, you agitate the hell out of that pain. And then you, and then you give your solution, right? So you're stuffing in with your solution.
Laura Kendrick (09:15)
my god, yeah.
⁓ Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Delia (09:41)
And I've always said that I call it PES instead, which doesn't really work because it doesn't stand for anything. Even in, I live in Spain and it might get away being a fish if you were, it kind of means fish in Spanish, but anyway. And it's pain empathy solution. So, you know, instead of agitating pain, we empathize with it and we empathize it from a place of human connection and of
Laura Kendrick (10:06)
Mm-hmm. I love that.
Delia (10:11)
stories and I always, some of my clients say to me, okay, well, I want to avoid pain points. I just want my copy to be positive. And I'm like, I get you. And if we avoid pain points completely, then we're not seeing what someone's going through right now. And if someone's having a really hard time right now, and we're not even acknowledging that, and we're not coming at it like from a place of empathy.
Laura Kendrick (10:30)
Right?
Delia (10:40)
then we're doing a disservice and that will probably cost you sales. But I feel more and more it's like we don't agitate pain, we empathize with it. And we look into our own shared experiences and we think of times where we've had that pain and how we felt and maybe we share stories from that moment because stories connect again. So it's just everything we're doing has to be driving to this connection.
Laura Kendrick (10:50)
Mm-hmm.
Gosh, yes. it's so, yeah, just yes. I think that's it's funny, because I was just talking about this yesterday in another session for the summit that we were ⁓ talking about othering and that instead of othering people, of giving them that empathy. And I was talking about two days before or two days ago from now that we were ⁓ at a park.
and it was super cold and after an hour and a half my hands became like freezing and I got in the car and just said I'm so cold right now and both my partner and my son were like it wasn't that cold and I'm like
not what I needed, you know? I just needed you to turn on the heat. It was fine. For my kids, stop rolling down the windows. But it's the, like, but that's the thing in the marketing. Like, we're all in this state of, and I feel like that's part of what the trust issue is. There's a lot of contention in the world as a whole. The human beings are not being as thoughtful and kind and welcoming as they could be. And so if we're all facing this,
Delia (11:47)
I'm sorry.
Mm.
Laura Kendrick (12:11)
I don't feel heard, I don't feel seen. And in our marketing, we're choosing equally not to hear them, not to see them, not to validate them. Then we're just one more person who it's just making them feel that ick and that like, fine, I guess this isn't my place either. And it's like, ⁓ man, it's that thing we're told often of like, if your cup is like right at the brim, like one more drop is going to.
spill it over in the negative way, right? And it's like, okay, so maybe we don't do that in our marketing, be that drop that spills it over.
Delia (12:45)
Yeah. Don't be the drop.
Don't be the drop that causes like the avalanche. That overload.
Laura Kendrick (12:53)
Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little
bit about your kind of the way you use these sparks.
Delia (13:02)
Yeah. So basically what, so when I say this, some people say to me, know, okay, great. This all sounds lovely, but what is my spark? Right. Because otherwise it kind of sounds flowery and a bit vague. So I say there are eight different elements to your spark. And what I do is take my clients through my method, which is the spark to sales method, where we deep dive into what the spark is and then look at.
how we can put that in your messaging and your marketing to get the sales. And so there's eight different components. I'll run through them. And then if we want to jam on any of them, can. So first up is just bringing your personality into your copy. So that quirky language you use, like some of those weird words that only you say, like I say spectacles and crikey all the time. So that's going to be in my copy when it's relevant. You say what? ⁓ I love.
Laura Kendrick (13:37)
Yeah, please.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I say holy bananas. Yeah, yeah, holy bananas.
Delia (13:59)
I say Harley Snobles.
Laura Kendrick (14:03)
That's weirder, I love it.
Delia (14:04)
I love holy bananas. Okay, so personality is one. Stories, bringing stories into your messaging. So important, because of that emotional connection. People forget facts and figures, like you were saying, but we don't forget stories. So it helps make you and your brand stickier. Your vision, what do you want to be?
Laura Kendrick (14:11)
Mm.
Delia (14:33)
I would say like, what's your five year vision? What do you want in five years time? And how do you want your business to be bringing it about? And what impact do you want to be having on the world? Your strengths and weaknesses, which we've already touched on a bit, but like strengths is another one where people play their strengths down. Like so many of my clients, for example,
I'm like, wow, you do this thing really, really well. We need to be shouting about that. And they play it down, not always from a place of modesty, although it can be modesty, but it can also just be that they don't realize that not everyone else can do that so well. You know, when we're in the bottle, we're like, we can't read the label, right?
Laura Kendrick (15:11)
Yes, yes.
But isn't that, I mean, a perfect example of that is I have that, whereas a copywriter, was clients who were telling me like, not all copywriters can do strategy like this. And I'm like, really? Like I had this assumption that I was like, this is just part of the job. And they were like, no, no, it's not. And I'm like, ⁓ you know, like we sometimes can't see it. We assume that innateness.
Delia (15:35)
Right?
Laura Kendrick (15:39)
is like what everyone's doing and in fact it's not.
Delia (15:43)
It's not. And we just don't know that because we don't know what we don't know, right? We don't know what everyone else is doing and we're our own worst critics. So we'll always be thinking about what could we be doing better? How could we make this even better? Not necessarily thinking about why I am like really amazing.
Laura Kendrick (15:45)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.
For sure.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right, very much when you like
look in the mirror and you're like, there's one dimple of cellulite, God, you know? it's like, and the people, yeah, and the people around you are like coveting your like, you know, they're like, you look so good and you're like, no, it's the worst, you know? We do that everywhere, Yeah.
Delia (16:08)
Everyone can see it.
Like you're glowing. You're like, god, I haven't had my roots done in like
five weeks.
I'm 100 %
Laura Kendrick (16:27)
For sure.
Delia (16:28)
So strengths and weaknesses and really knowing your why. Why are you doing this? Why are you running your own business? Why are you getting out of bed to do this in the morning? I've got a friend who will only buy outdoor wear by Patagonia because they give 1 % back. Yeah. Because they give 1 % back to charities or causes that may help with the environment.
Laura Kendrick (16:48)
why. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I get that why. Yeah. Yeah.
And he did something really
cool with the company too. I can't remember the details now, but it's something like it, there's something really cool about like he did the shift like a year ago where like they're not taking the income or something like that. There's something very altruistic and beautiful about the business shift that I can't remember. So if you're interested, go Google Patagonia. Yeah. It's cool. They're worth, if you, if you give a damn about those things.
Delia (17:11)
Yes.
Yeah, same. I know exactly what you're talking about and can't remember the details either.
Laura Kendrick (17:26)
They're worth looking into, yeah.
Delia (17:27)
But you know what, even though we don't remember the details, this is actually a really good example, what stayed with us is a feeling. We both feel like it's a brand we want to get behind. We can't remember why, but like...
Laura Kendrick (17:31)
Yes, it is!
Yes!
Yes. Right?
They're good people. That's what I remember. They're good people. I want to buy their stuff. Yes. That's ⁓ so true. So true. So don't Google it. Just do it.
Delia (17:48)
Yes, it's so true.
Yeah, just take our word for it. Just carry them in your heart like we do.
So yeah, people sometimes say, no one's interested in my why. And I'm like, clearly, if your why resonates with your ideal people, then they will. And also bringing in your experience and credibility. Like I talk a lot in my marketing about how I was a journalist and so can bring that.
Laura Kendrick (18:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Delia (18:22)
interviewing, knowing the right questions to help you uncover your spark or I'll talk about that helps me with the hooks and stories, my skills in journalism. But you know, someone who's been a lawyer and does what I do will probably have incredible attention to detail, also be very, you know, great with their questioning and they can come at it from a whole different angle. And you could see how two of us could be selling the same thing but from with such different experiences and credibility.
Laura Kendrick (18:39)
Mm-hmm.
Delia (18:52)
we can be putting our own twists on it. And why the spark is important as well is because obviously when we're doing all this stuff, we're naturally attracting our perfect people and repelling the people that we don't want to work with. Like, people that are not on board with any of this and are thinking, she's a weirdo. Like, fine, you can self-select out of my world.
Laura Kendrick (18:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right. Right.
Yes, and that's a gift. The people who
turn away and leave, that's a gift. you don't actually, there are people who you probably don't want to hang out with either. So it's like, and that's OK. And I love the notion that people don't say enough. There's enough business and work to go around. We don't actually, like, you and I do the same thing. like, technically, yeah, we're competitors. But it's OK. Like, there's enough.
work for you and enough work for me and enough business for us to thrive and do our things without having to be at each other's throats and you know and all the things and because we live in this space now where it's not just whoever's the closest one and there's two so we have to fight over them it's like we have this luxury of being able to work with not just who's available but who's the right fit.
Who's got the right vibe? Who's gonna do the work and feel really good to work with? And like, yes, just yes.
Delia (20:17)
Absolutely, and like you say vibe, like that is, and that is what you want to be doing. Bringing your vibe out with all this spark elements, bringing your vibe out so people can decide, yeah, you're my person. And agreed, it's abundance. Everybody has their own networks and community. And so your audience, well, lots of people in your audience wouldn't necessarily know who I am because there's just so many people out there.
Laura Kendrick (20:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Delia (20:48)
Okay, so last two elements of the Spark. One is values. So bringing your values into your messaging, which I love doing by maybe bringing it into the promises of your office. You know, if you're somebody who, for example, I really value growth, like my own growth, which means that I'm allowed to spend as much money as I want on books.
Laura Kendrick (21:03)
Hmm.
Delia (21:15)
It's like, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (21:16)
I have that problem too. Yeah.
Delia (21:20)
But I get away with it by going, but it's a value.
Laura Kendrick (21:23)
Meh!
I'll have to fold that one in.
Delia (21:24)
I really am for tonight.
So then one of my offers, as part of the offer promise, I talk about the fact that it is messaging and positioning to set you up for the next five years of growth. And what I'm doing there is really leaning into my value of growth and wanting to help others grow. And values, again, are a really good way of us pulling in like-minded people. lot of my clients are ambitious and they want to grow and they're the people I want to be working with.
Laura Kendrick (21:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Delia (21:57)
⁓ so values is another fun way of just getting in your vibe. And then the final element is your approach. So are you someone that's super strategic or very intuitive or very creative? And what is your formula? What is your method? How do you get people from A to B? Because again, that is going to be unique to you and how you like to work. And so.
Laura Kendrick (22:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
Delia (22:27)
I'm just really feeling at the moment, like bringing these eight elements into your messaging. I'm really creating like a spark first brand is so important. And yes, we do need to be hitting like the biopsychology pain points and the things that we've always been told we need to do. But realistically AI is doing that now, you know?
Laura Kendrick (22:38)
Yeah.
Delia (22:50)
It might not always be doing it very well, but it's doing it, right? And it's getting better at doing that, but it can't bring all of this in unless you know it. Like once you know it and you really own it and then yeah, you can be giving AI whatever you have. ⁓ But this is the stuff I think that helps you really stand out now.
Laura Kendrick (22:52)
Yeah.
That's That's true.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's so beyond just that. Like you said, five years ago, what we were being, everyone was kind of touting was like, personality, forward, copy. And this is so much more in depth than that. And I love the way you're thinking. And of course, these are pieces that were floating around, but I love how you're kind of threading them through interesting places, too. Like, I'm thinking about my values and where I need to like...
turn up the dial in certain places. I'm like, oh, that's so true. And it helps people know. Like, was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a messaging person, and we were talking about the programs that we both, because we're similar in this way, we both like to buy into now are ones that are like generosity forward. Because for so long, so many people got into, and this is actually kind of where this idea of hospitality part of where it comes from.
Delia (24:02)
you
Laura Kendrick (24:09)
is so many people got into boundaries, which boundaries are important because you can't bleed yourself dry. But they built such intense boundaries that it was like the Great Wall of China. It was like, you pay thousands of dollars for my program, but you have 10 minutes of access to me once a year. And you get the luxury of being on hot seat calls. And that's what you get. And it's like, ⁓ no, I'm happy for you. But that's not really serving.
me that's serving you, I'm just a transaction at this point. That's what it feels like. And I love, how that idea, that's what came up for me personally, where I was like, is a huge value for me. And I want to be somebody who is generous with the things that I give people. But also, I want to see that in other people's copy so I know I'm in the right place. Because those are the people that I want to lean into are the people who give a damn that I'm there.
Delia (24:52)
you
Mmm.
Wow, I love that so much. And that's exactly the point. You know, you recognize that you value generosity and then when you see it in someone else's copy, that could be the thing that takes you from, I, shall I not? To, hell yeah, I'm gonna go for it.
Laura Kendrick (25:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I mean, this person and I, she recommended a training for the disc for copywriters to me and the way she sold it, she's like, he is such an over giver. It's amazing how much he gives you inside. I'm like, sold, done. This person who I trust is recommending it and then also you're telling me that I'm not just going to be left in the dust, done. Hopping on in there. And I don't do trainings like that very often anymore. I was in hook, line and sinker.
Delia (25:39)
Yeah
Yeah!
Oh, amazing. And it's so funny you say that about boundaries because you're right. Like boundaries became the word of the year in like when 2022 and suddenly everyone was like, I'm modeling boundaries. You get no one-to-one time with me because I'm modeling boundaries.
Laura Kendrick (25:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah!
Yeah, and the thing is, I understood it. I understood where it came from. But it went too far. It went way too far, where suddenly it was like, I actually got on a sales call with somebody for a mastermind. It was like $20,000 a year or something like that. And it was truly like, what you get out of it is you get one 15-minute hot seat once a month. That's it. And it's like, what?
Delia (26:16)
Yeah, great.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's rubbery, it's rubbery.
Laura Kendrick (26:40)
Yeah, yeah, like
I appreciate you and I would love to do it, but that doesn't, that's not feels like your boundaries are firmly in place, but to the point where you're not serving me. And it's like, okay, I mean, for some people I'm sure that's good, but for me that wasn't, it wasn't the right room to be in at the end of the day, you know? Yeah.
Delia (26:48)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah, I wonder
thinking about it. I feel like this generosity theme might be a really big theme as trust is dropping. What do we need to be doing? We need to be being more generous with our time and I value and so, huh, interesting.
Laura Kendrick (27:10)
⁓ for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you got to find a way to do it that doesn't burn you out. yeah, mean, yeah, there's got to be a happy medium that exists and not just a like, you know, pay $3,000 for my course and inside you get, you know, a 30 minute video and a template on Google Docs like, no.
Delia (27:22)
curse.
Yeah, hard to agree. Yeah, really
resonated with this one.
Laura Kendrick (27:42)
That 30 minute
course better be doing my laundry, raising my children, and getting me to sleep through the night every night, because I have no more stress. Then sold.
Delia (27:48)
And I have no
more money left because you're taking a hole.
you
Laura Kendrick (27:58)
my gosh.
Well, Delia, thank you so much for adding this conversation. think this is, I mean, it's just such a robust conversation and I like, it's got the wheels in my brain turning for sure. So I'm really excited that you're, you came and shared this with us.
Delia (28:13)
Thank you for having me. It's been a blast.
Laura Kendrick (28:17)
Yay, before I fell the same way. ⁓ we go though, will you share with the people where they can find you in the big bad world of the interwebs?
Delia (28:31)
⁓ yes, with much delight. So I'm mainly on Instagram and my handle is delia.monk. My website is deliamonk.com. There's a theme here, it's just my name for everything. If in doubt, just Google me, Delia Monk. And I do have a brand new private podcast, which just came out yesterday.
Laura Kendrick (28:46)
Solid branding, love it.
Delia (28:59)
All about how to discover your spark. So if this is something that's interesting, you can get that at deliamonk.com forward slash podcast.
Laura Kendrick (29:04)
amazing.
I'm going to go grab it right now and dig right in. I'm excited.
Delia (29:14)
Amazing.
Laura Kendrick (29:16)
All right, well thank you so much.
Delia (29:19)
Thank you. Thank you, Laura. This has been wonderful. Thanks so much. Thanks having me.
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