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Guide, Don’t Gush.
Ditch the brochure vibe. Map the journey, use user-friendly labels, and let UX do the selling.
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Susan Reoch has been writing conversion copy for over 15 years and teaching it inside her digital products and courses for 4. Her unique customer-centric approach has seen her featured in top-tier publications like Copyhackers, Writers in Tech, The Freelancer's Year, and The Content Byte.
Susan supports ambitious service providers ready to hit the next level in their business. Her blog and newsletter ‘The UX Factor’ delivers the clarity, strategy and words to make it happen. -
Your homepage has 10 seconds to get someone to stay. Use the HOOKED Template Bundle to write a header that grabs their interest... so the right people stick around and buy!
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00:00 Reintroducing Susan and the Importance of UX Copywriting
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Hi Susan. I'm so happy you're back. You're the only, yeah. What's that? Was that a Backstreet Boys song or like back again? There it is.
Susan (00:11)
Backstreet's back alright!
Talking to the elder millennial here.
Laura Kendrick (00:16)
HELL YEAH!
God, you are the only one who's back and for a very, very good reason, because we're talking websites. This. Yeah, yeah. I think the last summit, I was like, Susan, I want you to be a part of this, but you also need to be a part of the next one too. So it's like, it's a two shot deal.
Susan (00:23)
Aww.
My favorite.
It's like getting a book deal, right? You don't just get one. You gotta have a follow-up session.
Laura Kendrick (00:46)
⁓ Perfect. All right. So just in case there's some new people here, share with the whole crowd who you are.
Susan (00:51)
Yes.
Hi, I'm Susan Reoch, hard last name to read, because it's spelled with a C-H. And I'm a strategist and UX copywriter. I've been doing it for a long time now. Can't remember, lost count at 10 years. ⁓ Got my start in UX as a UX writer, working in a really big company, big e-commerce travel company. ⁓ And then moved back to Australia. I was living overseas, moved back to Australia and realized that
we weren't quite at the same stage in terms of user experience and no one really seemed to know what I was talking about. ⁓ And eventually landed a gig working in agency doing conversion style ⁓ copywriting, SEO copywriting as well. When I started my own business about five years ago, I realized that the two of them actually merged really well together.
Laura Kendrick (01:35)
Mm-hmm.
Susan (01:49)
⁓ and especially for website copy when we're talking about business websites here because there's all different kinds of websites and we're probably gonna dive into that a little bit more deeply. ⁓ And then I started sharing what I knew with other copywriters, their minds were kind of blown and so I created a program called Beyond Web Copy where I taught other copywriters about user experience and UX, including the lovely Laura and ⁓
Laura Kendrick (02:12)
including me.
Susan (02:18)
that's just gone gangbusters. And then I branched out and realized that there's so many business owners that want to write their own website copy that are writing their own website copy, but finding it really challenging. And so then I modified ⁓ the content and created a whole new course called Site Launcher Lab. And that's for business owners who want to write website copy that gives people an amazing user experience and you know, helps bring in more money to their business, more sales, more clients, all the good stuff.
Laura Kendrick (02:47)
Yeah. And I remember being in your training and thinking out loud to you of like, so we're kind of like turning the website into a gigantic sales page in essence. Like there's a whole flow and you were like, ⁓ yeah.
But that is, in essence, like it's taking and that's, I mean, this is what this is all grounded in, is taking this glorified online business card that people put out there and put pretty pictures on. And then they're just like, yeah, I have a website, it's done, checkbox. But what they don't realize is the damn website could be selling for them without them having to be
Susan (03:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (03:28)
like in it all the time. It can do so much more work. And that is where this summit landed, which is why you're here, because yay. Yes.
Susan (03:37)
so excited and so great that
you're doing this and getting this out there to more people. I love it.
Laura Kendrick (03:42)
And well, love that because I also, so I started my online business like so many of us do in the like in the virtual assistant space. And the first client I ever got was a tech company and they are like all into UX. Like so when I like moved into copy and then eventually found you and found UX copy and all that fun stuff, like I spoke the language, I understood it, but it.
is something that's missing from the copy world. And it's definitely missing from the entrepreneur's vernacular. Like, they don't get this. And it's like...
Mm-hmm
Susan (04:18)
Yeah, so much potential, right? So much untapped potential.
And I think that people are often doing little bits and pieces of it, but they're not thinking about it holistically.
04:27 Understanding Different Types of Websites
Laura Kendrick (04:27)
Right. thinking about, mean, just to kind of dial it back to just the idea of so many of us, at least so many people in my world, are very focused on their clients having this amazing experience. And it's all about their customer journeys and the real wins that they get inside their programs and with their services. But the thing is, is this Mary so beautifully because
UX's user experience, it's about that exact same thing on your website.
Susan (04:59)
Yeah,
exactly. Yeah, well said. You don't need me.
Laura Kendrick (05:04)
We're done. Hanging up now.
my gosh. No, okay, so let's go back to the different kinds of websites because I thought that was a fun little, yeah, let's start there.
Susan (05:15)
Yeah, because people probably don't think about it, right? And I think ⁓ a lot of the websites that I worked in when I was doing UX stuff and I have done a lot of user experience stuff also in my freelance business, but those kinds of websites aren't necessarily about getting a sale. if we, I'm just going to use the word conversion in this context for everyone. But if you think about banking is such a good example because
pretty much everyone is using online banking these days. So the sale conversion, if you think about it, happens before you start doing anything in a bank, right? You have to pick the bank that you're gonna go with. It's not like there's one bank, like we've all made a choice for all different reasons about the bank that we choose to do. And we might be with various banks these days as well for different reasons. So that's the sale conversion, if you think about it. That's what a business website does.
So banks will have these business websites that are like, get the best deal, get the best interest rate, you know, all their selling points. They will get the sale. And then that's where usually typically user experience begins. And it's like about making the app or the website, the functional banking website, super easy to use. This isn't about selling you on the bank. They've already done that. This is about allowing you to make transfers really easily or...
I don't know, extend your mortgage or whatever it is that you need to do on a bank, right? ⁓ Yeah, exactly. So what someone like a UX writer or content designer typically does is all the little tiny bits of copy there that are like labels for form fields or button copy. Like if you think about how many words are actually in a banking app, it's huge. You probably don't even notice they're there, but someone like me has written them.
Laura Kendrick (06:40)
Right. When you click deposit, you actually deposit kind of thing.
Mm-mm.
Susan (07:04)
So it's all about making it super intuitive. So what we wanna do with a business website, with someone that's trying to get a sales conversion, a business owner is trying to get a sales conversion is take that same idea of guiding someone on a journey and making it really seamless, except apply it to getting the sale. So someone comes to your business website and they're not sold on you yet, they're looking to solve a problem. How are you gonna take them from that point?
to, you know, submitting whatever it is that you want them to do on the website, whether that's make a direct sale if it's a digital product or whether it's like submitted form or ⁓ make a, what am I trying to say? Book into a calendar, you know, like whatever a conversion means for your website, it's not always gonna be a direct sale, but we wanna be making that as smooth and seamless as possible.
Laura Kendrick (07:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Susan (07:59)
you asked me about the different types of websites and then I kind of like were made a bit of a tangent there but other types of websites that you can think about is like e-commerce where we are with conversion we are talking about a direct sale and their e-commerce is really interesting I don't know if there are any e-commerce ⁓ business owners listening to this but I imagine there might be or even if you sell digital products that's kind of a kind of e-commerce as well because
Laura Kendrick (08:03)
That's cool. That's cool.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Susan (08:26)
on your website, you are selling them on you as the person to solve this problem for, and you're also selling them directly in buying a product as well. So I think like a lot of people might have a hybrid kind of website where it's like, you know, this is who I am. I'm so great. I mean, no one wants to say that, but essentially that is what your website needs to say. But also here are all the products I offer, which one is going to be the right, right fit for you.
Laura Kendrick (08:54)
feel like we should start a trend in instead of an about us or an about me page, it should just be in an I'm so great page.
Susan (09:03)
It definitely should be an I'm so great page, but it also needs to be a you're so great page because we don't want to lose sight of the person that we're talking to.
Laura Kendrick (09:11)
An element of having a great user experience on your website is using the vernacular that people understand. You know, like we all understand the little triangle on its side is a play button. So you can slap that on top of an image and people will know, if I click this, it's going to play something. And so there are elements in the menu bar too, that are just common vernacular. People know what they are. I am going to ⁓ make a push right now.
09:28 The User Journey and Conversion Strategies
Susan (09:28)
Exactly.
Laura Kendrick (09:40)
that the world changes it from an about page to an I'm so great page.
Susan (09:44)
We're gonna have to get a lot of people on board. I think there's like 200 million websites in active use.
Laura Kendrick (09:47)
once Amazon's involved.
Well, I have 200 million listeners to this, right?
Susan (09:54)
well, obviously.
Laura Kendrick (09:55)
God. So the thing that I love about this element though is that it really does like when you embrace this in your brain, it really does shift to the way you start to think about your website because though yes, websites convert a lot of the time, what's actually converting them is an intense drive to a sales page or to your shop or something like that. So it's in the launching, in...
Susan (10:04)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (10:22)
you know, your sales funnel and having that, you know, the whole idea of we nurture and then we sell. And in that sales moment, we're sending them like to that specific page of like buy this, buy this, buy this. But I love the idea that the website in and of itself is an entire journey for the user. So somebody could theoretically just find you on Google, could just be like Googling. I need a copywriter. My website shows up.
Not at this moment, it doesn't in the nice way that I'm about to talk about. It needs to be fixed still. But it might land on your.
Susan (10:57)
This is a work in progress
for everyone. think like it's really important if you're listening to this and you're like, my gosh, I'm feeling so much pressure. Like the best thing about user experience is that it's an ongoing process of like iterating refining. It's not like one and done.
Laura Kendrick (11:13)
This has actually also changed the way I build websites. In the very beginning, so many people think of the home page as being the beginning. The home page is actually the last thing I tackle. I start at the bottom. Now, I start at the offer, at the end of the journey. like, especially, I mean, being somebody who is fairly adept at conversion copy, it's like, is the place. OK, here's where we're ending. Now, how do we need to get them there? And then,
Susan (11:26)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (11:41)
the final thing is at homepage. And that's what ties it all together. So it's funny, my website's a mess, but really it's the homepage that's a mess. All the other pieces are coming together nicely. The homepage is the last piece of my puzzle. But it's really interesting how it, when you start to think about this as an actual journey, not just a, my homepage is in essence like a menu where I just have to tell them where to go and then they choose. Instead,
Susan (11:49)
Yeah
Excellent!
Laura Kendrick (12:10)
It is really thinking about the fact of what do they actually need to know to make the next step, whatever that step is, and then moving them through that path in this really lovely intentional way.
Susan (12:24)
Yeah. And I think like the, thing that I really wanted people to take away, if they take one thing away from this chat, hopefully they take more.
Laura Kendrick (12:33)
It's to change the
menu bar, right, to the I'm Awesome page.
Susan (12:36)
Aside from that, maybe possibly, possibly even more important than that is to just focus on one user journey to start. And everyone's going to go, but there's so much that I do. And there's so much that I want to tell people. And this is the number one mistake I see people making on their websites. Like it needs to represent my entire business in all its glory. And it all needs to go on my website.
Laura Kendrick (12:46)
Mmm.
Susan (13:02)
Whereas if you start thinking about it as a tool or you know, a person even that's just doing one very specific job and doing it very, very well, you are going to dramatically increase your chances of, you it actually doing that job. Like if you give it a hundred jobs to do, it's not going to do any of them well. If you give it one job to do, get that going. And then you can start thinking about adding other things in, but really just prioritizing what is the most important thing.
Laura Kendrick (13:21)
Yes.
Susan (13:31)
that I want this website to do for me. And that makes that thing of like, okay, what am I going to say on the homepage? What's the next step? What's the next step? That makes that decision process so much easier.
Laura Kendrick (13:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's such a great point to bring to life. And you can think about that too, like if you're really struggling with that, feel like you could drop it into the idea of other offers or other journeys in essence in your mind, can compartmentalize them as almost like the sales pages. Like traditionally in a sales page, we don't link to that in a menu bar. You can't get to it unless you're driven through the funnel. So you're really...
really cultivating a journey for the person in a launch and making them or walking them to the sales page. But you could think about that if you're sitting here like, but I have all these other offers. It doesn't mean that those sales pages can't exist. It doesn't mean that those funnels can't exist. It just means that while you're starting out on this UX thought of your website, think of it in that singular kind of funnel of the website. And there's still other ways that people can get to the other offers.
14:35 Simplifying Website Design for Better Clarity
Susan (14:35)
100%. And I think like the joy of a website as opposed to a funnel is that you do have these other places where you can have these things. So you might have a pop-up, you know, with a freebie that starts them in a funnel off to a different offer. You might have, you know, in your menu, for example, you're likely going to have a courses and resources section. So if someone is like, this isn't exactly where I want to go on the homepage. They can just go up there and find exactly what they're looking for. There are other, there are other things that you can do. But if you're thinking about like the actual
Laura Kendrick (14:59)
Yeah. Yeah.
Susan (15:05)
you know, page itself, just keep that really streamlined and really focused.
Laura Kendrick (15:09)
Yeah, I love that. That's such a good point. Can you see? This way. Two for one.
my gosh. Okay. So when you're like teaching entrepreneurs how to do this, where do you recommend that they start?
Susan (15:21)
Yes.
Well, I feel like what I just said. But where do I, um, that is a really good question. Where do I recommend that they start? Okay. This is the number one thing. Like I said, like with, with user experience, it's really about shifting your mindset into rather than I'm just going to get this website one and done and off my plate and never think about it again. It's like, I'm going to get it out there, you know,
Laura Kendrick (15:28)
Nice. Nice.
Susan (15:53)
as good as I can get at first go, but then I'm going to continue to refine and tweak, cetera, et cetera. So where I think a really good place to start is, and I can already feel people bracing themselves when I say this, like, I don't want to do this, is show your website to someone. And if you aren't feeling like that is completely cringe and embarrassing, then that's a problem because this is where you're sending people to when you want them to become clients. So,
sharing it with a friend or a family member and being like, is this clear? Can you understand this? What do you think I'm offering? Asking those kinds of questions, you know, it might feel cringe and embarrassing, but it's less cringe and embarrassing than sending it to a potential client or, you know, thousands of potential clients.
Laura Kendrick (16:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I love the testing that you offered to, and I can't remember if it's in the entrepreneur side as well, because I've been through both of your offers there. ⁓ In the copy side, where you offer kind of, well, the offers of the website and ask them how they would categorize these and where they would put them. And that's a really amazing UX tactic. I mean, this is what developers are doing all the time, trying to figure out, because I mean, I don't know. I know a few developers.
the time. They're not the most socially in tune people. God love them. They do. They really do. And it is an amazing language, but it is not necessarily the like, are you feeling frustration kind of thing. They are not Brene Brown, but they do. And when you give them, they are testing these things all the time and looking at it through that lens is this.
Susan (17:18)
They speak a different language.
Laura Kendrick (17:39)
how our instead of assuming, which is also by the way, at the heart of great copy is not assuming what's in your mind or your jargon or what you think your people need, but actually going out and asking them. I mean, it's voice of customer is gold when you actually go out and ask the questions and say, hey, what is actually your pain point? Not just me assuming this and doing the exact same thing with the website where you're running.
Susan (17:49)
100 %
Laura Kendrick (18:05)
them through and saying like, how would you actually categorize these options for my menu or for what have you and that the people can just drag them to where they want them to be. And it helps you really start to build in a way that meets your user, which is like,
Susan (18:23)
Yes. So that's like that really what Laura's talking about there is a little UX design trick called card sorting. And it's essentially something that I talk through in both my programs, Beyond Web Coffee and Sight Launcher Labs. So you will have seen it in both, but it's a way of figuring out what goes in your menu and ⁓ you know, what naturally people categorize together in their brains. Cause all of this
you know, comes from trying to get into someone's head and understand things the way that your brain makes those little mental shortcuts all the time. Like if you think about going to the supermarket and you're like, I want a banana, you're going to go to the fruit and veggie section, right? You're not going to go to the baking aisle. Like it's the same way we are just constantly making these little shortcuts in our brain. And it's about, there's all these frameworks in the UX world for tapping into those.
And why I love UX and why I'm so passionate and why I want to share it with like this whole audience of people that have never heard of it before is because I think there is so much guessing that goes on when we write our websites and you don't need to. are proven frameworks that like these huge companies are using to make millions and billions of dollars because they work that are completely applicable to the way we make our websites too. And once you know them, they're not hard. Once you know them,
19:13 The Role of Microcopy in User Experience
Laura Kendrick (19:29)
Yeah.
Susan (19:41)
You never have to guess again. You just have to go, ⁓ I'm really struggling to write about this pain point. It's probably because I don't know what it is. Not that I'm a terrible writer. I just don't understand it well enough. Where can I go? Where can I find these people that are having these pain points and get to understand them better? And once you understand it, the words will just flow out of you.
Laura Kendrick (20:02)
Mm hmm. I mean, preach. Like, yes. Yeah, I know. I know, but it's so true. And it's something that I've really been it's really been floating to my mind a ton lately is this idea that copy like what makes really good conversion copy. It's sadly oftentimes it's not creativity. It's not being able to be this amazing creative writer. It is the ability to
Susan (20:06)
You got me going now. I'm off on my strike, folks.
Laura Kendrick (20:32)
utilize these like very structured tools. Like I may have already said this in a couple of actually these interviews because it keeps it really is floating in my head right now. I have a friend who is an editor and she's so funny because she edits for like writers, but she also edits for copywriters. And the way she describes it is when she's editing for the writers, she's like they need like to get, they need more rules, but the copywriters need to let go of the rules. Like there's just so many rules in copy.
And that's the thing is like there really are that many rules. We often make it harder than it needs to be because when we're writing our own stuff, especially when you're learning, because you're thinking like, it needs to be kitschy. it needs to be funny. It needs to be grabby. I need to have like the perfect phrase. But the catch is, is the perfect phrase. Your people are already saying that crap out loud. Like if you deeply understand them, you don't have to come up with it. They're coming up with it for you. You just really have to fit it within the rules of like
How do human beings think and make decisions? And once you do that, it's like.
Susan (21:35)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Which feels really overwhelming probably to anyone who is kind of new to this in fairness.
Laura Kendrick (21:43)
I mean, and there are a lot
of rules, to be fair. Like it takes a while to take it in, not to like belittle what we all do, but it is, there are a lot of rules. It does take skill to be very good at it, but I feel like there is a misnomer there in that people are like, well, I'm just a bad writer. I mean, well sure, if you can't string words together, then my bad, but it doesn't take like, yeah.
Susan (22:06)
Yeah, I think it's a different type of
creativity too, because that is often a barrier, because people want to be creative, especially writers. And so that is something that I've had to overcome. Like if we talk about, you know, we can get a little meta here if we talk about overcoming myths, which is a really important part of copywriting, a really important myth that I've had to overcome in order to be able to sell beyond web copy and get copyrighted sold on the idea of UX.
Laura Kendrick (22:11)
That's true.
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Susan (22:33)
is there like, this will drain my creativity. And I'm like, well, it's just a whole other way of being creative. If we think about being creative as problem solving, this is about as creative as it gets. ⁓ And there's nothing I love more than like solving those kinds of problems. Like, okay, what do I have to sell? What do people want? How do I connect those two together?
Laura Kendrick (22:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah. And I think that there's definitely a misnomer in the fact that people think that it's musicians, it's painters, it's writers, like creative writers who are creative. But in fact, like I'm just thinking to like some of the most creative people in the world are like physicists. You know what mean? Like they're thinking about the universe in a whole different way than you and I are. And it's like, OK, so if you can boil it down to math is very creative, these very structured things.
Susan (23:11)
Yeah, scientists.
Laura Kendrick (23:23)
The developers who are looking at the way, mean, holy crap, those are some of the most creative people I have ever met in my entire life and had the pleasure of having a conversation with. The way they see the world, yeah, is so fascinating and so different. And they don't see boundaries, they see problems of like, want this to do this. How can I get there? How can I make this, harness this thing?
Susan (23:34)
Yeah, they're super smart.
Laura Kendrick (23:51)
and make it do what I want it to do. And it's like, holy shit. It's wild. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I think that's a really good point to bring to it, that it's not. Yeah, there's creativity in solving that problem of how do you get. How do you walk that path so beautifully and walk it also? That's the other thing. It's not in a forceful way. No one who's listening to this summit is about that like.
Susan (23:55)
Yeah, it's awesome. I could lose days doing this. Like, I just love it.
Yeah.
24:21 Creativity in Copywriting and User Experience
Laura Kendrick (24:21)
Sell, sell, sell, buy, buy, buy. I, yeah, everybody's here in this thoughtful, intentional way.
Susan (24:22)
No, no, that's-
Yeah, and that's why I love it because it's about finding that win-win. It's about finding a solution. Like I've actually always, I worked for a long time. Like you said, you came into it this through, ⁓ you know, being a VA, God, my path is like, but you know, I worked a long time in sales and I always loved sales because I was like, this person has come in with a problem. How can I solve it for them? And that's going to result in a sale, but it's by being incredibly empathetic and listening.
Laura Kendrick (24:29)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Susan (24:56)
And that's the same thing with
user experience. And like, if people are starting to get a little bit freaked out about like comparing it to, you know, physics or development or anything like that, it's really just about like, you're already having these conversations with your people. And it's about translating that onto the page. So it becomes an extension of you in a way.
Laura Kendrick (25:13)
Yes.
⁓ 100%, 100%. All right, what, I mean, what is like the, what is it that you kind of see for the people that you like really, I just lost all of my brain power right there. No, but like, I'm kind of like, I guess looking for that mic drop, like where is it that you want the people to get to with all of this? Like when you think about,
In essence, you're like, why? Why are you kind of like teaching all the people how to do this? Where does that land for you?
Susan (25:52)
Yeah, I don't know if this is gonna be the mic drop moment that you want it to be, cause maybe it's a little bit too like, cause I like to keep things really simple around here. So I think like where I would like to see people get to is just actually simplifying their websites and stop trying to make it this all singing, all dancing.
Laura Kendrick (25:55)
Are you gonna literally unhook your mic and leave?
Yeah.
I love that.
Susan (26:14)
massive confusing mess and just really get back to basics. Do you know what I mean? And a lot of that, something that I will share with everyone here is a freebie that I have and it's called Hooked. And it's literally about that top section of your homepage when people first land, it's called the hero. And just like saying what you do, who you do it for and why they should care. Like that is, like honestly, that is my why. If I could just land on a website,
Laura Kendrick (26:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Susan (26:42)
And those three things were clear to me. I feel like my job on this earth is done.
Laura Kendrick (26:46)
Yeah. Yeah. How
long is it on average that people spend on a website now? Yeah, it's
Susan (26:53)
a few seconds. Well, I mean, you've
like a couple of seconds to keep someone on there and then hopefully they stick around, you know, and learn about your things. But if you're losing them at that first step, then anything else that you do is wasted energy. So I think that's really the main, the main thing. And it's a quick, easy thing. Like I've literally got a bunch of templates there.
Laura Kendrick (26:57)
Yeah.
Susan (27:17)
together with ChatGPT, you can do this in like 10 minutes. But if everyone just, you know, listens to this and then goes and makes that change, like that would be incredible. But yeah, just overall simplifying it, not making it too complicated ⁓ and just saying, you know, being clear. People want clarity more than anything else. That's what I've seen through all the tests that I've ever done with all these different companies, like clarity that...
Laura Kendrick (27:26)
Yeah. ⁓
Susan (27:44)
That is always the biggest conversion driver in my experience.
Laura Kendrick (27:49)
Yeah. I, people are so often hunting for the personality over the clarity. And yes, personality matters. It means that you can stand out amongst the crowd. But if it's not clear, your personality means nothing. And we are talking about your hero section. Like, you got to grab this because it is so important. We're not talking about minutes. We're literally talking about seconds. The number that was sticking in my mind for some reason was seven seconds. But I actually think that's long. I don't think that's as. Yeah, it's we're talking.
Susan (28:16)
Yeah, that's long.
Laura Kendrick (28:19)
Like a couple of seconds that people land on the top of a website and then decide whether or not they want to scroll or click off and more often They click off and so if you don't have that clarity They're gonna click off and I love that. This is a lead magnet that you're using because I mean
Susan (28:37)
mean, the great thing for everyone listening to this is as much as Laura would like 200 million people to be listening to this, I mean, I feel like that's an ambitious goal. So the fact that you're listening to this and the fact that you're gonna do that with your hero section is gonna help you stand out because there aren't that many people doing this well, to be honest. that's somewhere in the middle of those figures.
Laura Kendrick (28:45)
don't know if I would, to be honest.
I mean all 12 people listening right now. No, I'm just kidding.
Susan (29:07)
Then why between 12 and 200 million?
29:11 Final Thoughts on Effective Website Strategies
Laura Kendrick (29:10)
I like that range. That's perfect.
my goodness. Okay, we could truly talk about this all day long and we should. Yes, please, please.
Susan (29:17)
Can I say one more thing? Cause I thought of something else.
Okay, so the second thing that everyone's gonna do after they fix their hero section is go and grab my other freebie, which is the microcopy micro course. And this is about the little, let's call them digital road signs that guide someone through your website. And really, these are the main things that people are going to be reading. They're not gonna be reading as much the big blocks of text. They're gonna be sort of scanning through those. But your sub headers, I...
Laura Kendrick (29:47)
I skim.
Susan (29:50)
account subheaders is micro copy somewhat controversially, but your subheaders, your button copy, your form copy, ⁓ those kinds of things, they're the things that need to be super crisp, clear. You need to be really nailing it with those kinds of things. It's usually just a few tweaks. So if you've got that header that's grabbing people and then you're guiding them really well with your micro copy, you you're going a long way towards getting more conversions. So I think that they're two really quick, easy things that people can do.
Laura Kendrick (30:19)
For sure. And I think it's also like, boil it if you're like, if anyone is sitting there wondering like, what do you mean all the stuff in between doesn't matter? I mean, it does matter, but also think about the way you interact with a website or you interact with a sales page. To be honest with you, unless somebody's paying me, I don't usually read every word on a sales page. We skim. You're the odd one. Yeah.
Susan (30:37)
And like I actually do, so I'm like this ⁓ weirdo that actually does read everything.
And there are plenty of people like me, like yay for the weirdos that read every single word on a page. Like that's awesome. But you do have to be aware that there are other types of people that don't, right? So we can't be too precious about it.
Laura Kendrick (30:51)
I'm the opposite end weirdo.
Right. I mean, when you're looking at buyer psychology, there are different types of people who interact in different ways. Like I'm actually the biggest of the weirdos where I'm the smallest percentage of people that I'm the one who's going to buy from your hero section alone. I'm the one who's the fast action taker who will click that button like that and really.
Susan (31:17)
You joined Beyond
Web Copy without even seeing the page.
Laura Kendrick (31:22)
I remember sending you an email like in the middle of like a year before being like, can I get in on this? Like, I don't care. I don't need lives. I just want to know.
So not too far off, I mean, truly there are different types of people who interact, but most people what's going to happen is there are going to be chunks of it that they're going to scan and they will go to where they need to in order to make their decision. like, yes. Right. Right. Right. Yes. And if they're getting from that top point, like, wait, this is worth my time. need to, this might actually be for me. I just need to like,
Susan (31:42)
Yes. Yes, and they can only know that if the subheader tells them what is in that section and why it's important.
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (32:00)
kind of suss out the details to figure it out. those bookends are so important. And it's not that the rest of the copy doesn't matter. It's that those bookends really, really are. They make the difference between are they even going to be here and are they going to click to the next page. And in the intermediary is where it's like, OK, all right, I'm feeling it out. But the beginning and the end are like.
Susan (32:09)
No.
Yes, absolutely.
Laura Kendrick (32:29)
That was so worth the let's talk longer. Any more let's talk longers?
Susan (32:32)
Okay, good, phew.
Thank you everyone for your time. I appreciate it.
Laura Kendrick (32:38)
I'm down for more if you got more.
my goodness. Okay. So we're definitely gonna link to the offers there. Where else can people find you?
Susan (32:48)
I've got two websites. ⁓ So if you want to get to know more about me and working with me as a copywriter, you just go to susanrioc.com. If you want to know more about my digital products, my courses and working with me in that way and just nerd out on UX copywriting in general, I've got an amazing blog over at theuxcopywriter.com.
Laura Kendrick (33:09)
So good. So good. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you being here twice. I appreciate all the genius you brought to this. And I'm just, I'm so grateful that I don't, I don't honestly even know how I found you to begin with, but I'm really grateful that I did.
Susan (33:25)
I'm so glad you found me too. Thank you so much for inviting me back to talk to all these amazing people.
Laura Kendrick (33:31)
Are you coming on for the third season too? I love it.
Susan (33:33)
Sign me up.
Visibility That Converts.
Stop collecting logos you never leverage. Nicole maps how to pitch, where to send the traffic, and how to weave press into your site so authority = action.
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Nicole Pearl is an award-winning PR coach helping small business owners, thought leaders, and creatives land press without the hefty agency price tag. As a seasoned national magazine editor and on-air beauty expert, Nicole takes a journalist-first approach, empowering clients with insider contacts, press opportunities and unparalleled media access you won’t find anywhere else. Whether you're a beauty brand founder, wellness coach, or lifestyle entrepreneur, Nicole’s hands-on coaching and done-for-you services sets you up with priceless skills, connections and results that will drive your business forward for the long haul. Through her signature programs, clients learn how to confidently pitch the media, monetize their visibility, and show up powerfully on any platform—from national TV to social media.
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Discover The Top 5 Media Outlets To Pitch Your Brand:
Unlock the power of Media Matchmaker Pro to get your customized press pitch list in seconds!
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00:00 Introduction to Nicole Pearl and Her Unique Approach
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Hi Nicole.
Nicole Pearl (00:02)
What's up?
Laura Kendrick (00:04)
So excited you're here. Let's start with you introducing yourself to the crowd here.
Nicole Pearl (00:12)
Hello, hi, I'm Nicole Pearl and basically I am a long time journalist and on air beauty expert who is now teaching small business founders really how to get press and visibility with my journalist first approach.
Laura Kendrick (00:28)
I love that. And you have such a unique approach because it's different than so many of the PR people who are teaching out there who are handing over courses or then also PR firms who do the kind of done for you thing. And I'm so glad you're here because PR really does play a big role in how people get to a website and get to the conversion space. so, yay.
So let's talk a little bit about how you suggested messaging and how messaging can play. Because in the website world, messaging is a big deal. You need to be able to connect your copy from your own brain, your offer, to the people who are converting. But you have an interesting take that kind of spins this into a whole new world, which I adore.
Nicole Pearl (01:17)
Yes, it totally connects the dots because even if you are working with a brand strategist or you have messaging on your website or on your social media, the end of the day, what we might think is the right messaging for a sales page in order to convert the customer or get something to buy from you, you need to make sure that your messaging is going to also do it in a way that's going to attract
people to understand like what you think is so cool about your product, but actually what they think is so cool. And sometimes there's a disconnect there. And I've learned that because having been a journalist, a lot of people will pitch me and what they think again in their messaging is hitting the nail on the head. I'm like, but I don't care about that. People get really excited about certain things that they think is the point of differentiation. And there's that missed mark where actually I'm like,
Laura Kendrick (01:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. ⁓
Nicole Pearl (02:13)
I've seen it a million times, like not so sexy. And so that's really where I also work with people and understanding like how to convey your messaging on camera to a journalist and then connecting what you have on your sales page as well to like take it to the next level so people see it, but they also are like, my gosh, I have to have it right now.
Laura Kendrick (02:24)
Mm.
I love that. And it expands the idea too of messaging outside of just converting with the people who you want to go to the checkout line, but also coming to the element of the press and visibility opportunities are huge in actually getting those people into your funnel to begin with or to your website or in your world in the first place. So having messaging that resonates with them.
That's a whole ball game that most people who are building funnels don't really think about. How do you get those big visibility things that actually align with what you're doing and also those conversions?
03:06 The Importance of Messaging in PR and Sales
Nicole Pearl (03:18)
Yes, and as many people in the media, the first thing that they're going to do when they say they hear about you is they're going to go to your website or maybe they'll go to your social media to check you out. And if you are not positioning yourself, if you're not showing up, let's say on your website in a way that's going to attract their attention, you're missing. It's a huge missed opportunity.
Laura Kendrick (03:28)
Mmm.
Oh man, you just made my life. mean, I'm in the middle of a website rehaul anyways, but you just like broke my brain wide open of like, Oh no, somebody else to think about. But that's such a valid point that I feel like most people aren't thinking about.
Nicole Pearl (04:01)
I think that it's not like you have to create your whole campaign around what the media will be thinking. But I think it adds that additional kind of layer when you're putting together your message to make sure that you are speaking to your customer. There's a lot of connection there. But sometimes your customer is not as skeptical as the media.
Laura Kendrick (04:10)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Pearl (04:30)
So then if you think about, OK, I need to hit my person, but then to the next level of, what are some of the... It's so funny you say this, because I was just talking to a client and she was like throwing out some stats to me. whenever I coach, I take a journalist first approach. And I'm like, OK, those stats are great. But those stats could relate to so many other... She's a fashion brand founder, so many other fashion brands.
Laura Kendrick (04:57)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Nicole Pearl (04:58)
you were to
put that stat on your website, sure, it's compelling, but so could five other brands in your arena use that same stat. So now let's take it to the next level and connect that stat specifically to really like what is unique about that stat and how it relates to like the service or product that you're offering. And I feel like sometimes people will just rely on step one, but they don't get a step two. And then that's where I think like the...
Laura Kendrick (05:05)
Yeah. ⁓
Yes.
Nicole Pearl (05:28)
impact is not always as strong as it could be in terms of like convincing or converting or connecting because it feels diluted when you're just using a stat that anyone else could jump and use too, right?
Laura Kendrick (05:32)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yes, I desperately love that. Like that adds a very different nuance. And yes, I agree that it doesn't doesn't mean you need to write the whole website for the press, but being able to put it into context. think that's a huge aspect of copywriting anyways. And but this is a whole slightly different element, I should say, ⁓ which I greatly appreciate, especially because it does seem as though in our world.
05:43 Connecting Messaging with Media Visibility
Visibility is a big buzzword. A lot of people have this kind of goal on the top of their goal sheet that's visibility, visibility, visibility. I mean, people are going on visibility tours. They're pitching like crazy. And so making that kind of that leap of how do you actually nail this and outside of just the pitch, that is a huge thing to think about. And it doesn't feel to me like it takes a whole lot.
Nicole Pearl (06:26)
you
Laura Kendrick (06:43)
of thought or guess intention in your copy to kind of drive that home. But you actually have to put the intention there. You have to think about it. You have to do it.
Nicole Pearl (06:52)
Right. And I think it helps you throughout. Like it's a comprehensive benefit because it will filter into the rest of your business strategy, even when you're like talking to potential clients or when you're showing up on social media or when you're pitching a TV segment. So it's just something to think about that I think is not always the first place that we go when we're putting together our copy and messaging.
Laura Kendrick (06:57)
Mm-hmm.
For sure.
For sure. feel like a lot of people get caught in the ⁓ I know actually it's not I feel I know a lot of people get caught in the features versus benefits element of things. And this is taking that to that other level because people do. I like the example you gave a statistics because people will lean on those and think like well this you know this high percentage of what have you says that I'm really good at what I do and it's like.
I like that. Yes, it does. But other people have those statistics, too. So it doesn't it sets you apart from the riffraff who aren't doing the work. But it doesn't set you apart from the people who you're competing with to actually get this press, this visibility, which is a different level that we're talking about. This is a different kind of competitive sphere, if you will, that.
Nicole Pearl (08:08)
Yeah, I agree. And along the same lines, there's like certain kind of buzzwords that I think become really popular in copywriting or messaging or like, again, if you're pitching a lot of, there are even common words that marketing people will use and things, and I can even give you something like, let's take it into the beauty space, let's just say, because I see this all the time.
Laura Kendrick (08:14)
Mm.
Please do.
Nicole Pearl (08:34)
If you're going to talk about a new moisturizer being silky or a technology being breakthrough with the first of its kind, I'm like, you know, been there, done that. so thinking about how do you message a really like a specific ingredient or it's like finding descriptors that feel real without feeling like marketing or buzzy. I think that also allows
08:46 The Role of Statistics and Unique Selling Points
Laura Kendrick (08:46)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Pearl (09:04)
even the potential consumer or whatever, to really buy into your website more because they can connect not through something that feels like you're selling to them, but through something that's like a descriptor that maybe they haven't heard a million times before. And that will stick with them and they'll remember that too.
Laura Kendrick (09:25)
Yeah, yeah. And that goes to the core of just good messaging and getting outside of all the generic crap. Because if you sound like everybody else in any capacity, you're like, you just sound like everybody else. it's it doesn't bring you out of the kind of loud world that we live in that everybody's competing for a little bit of space. And in my view, it's like there's room for everybody. But
there's enough to go around, but at the same point, you want to find the right people for you and without that really honed in messaging that speaks to what makes you special.
Nicole Pearl (10:03)
Yes, and to get there quickly because like bringing it back to just the idea of we're all busy again as somebody who's in the media. I don't want to have to read a novel to figure out who you are what you're about. The same thing applies to a great website. And so it's your responsibility to be able to convey very clearly through your messaging as to why, let's say I'd want to feature you or why somebody would want to click.
to shop the products or what have you.
Laura Kendrick (10:36)
Have you thought about how, and feel free to be like, no, I haven't. Have you thought about exactly how getting published in the press directs people to websites? Like, you, has that kind of ever filtered through your like strategic thinking of like, where do you want them to land? I mean, I have my thoughts, but I'm just curious from somebody who has been on the press side and also helps guide people through getting press.
Nicole Pearl (10:40)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (11:06)
When either and this could go for both actually like when you're pitching to somebody who's in the press or a big visibility opportunity Where on the website might you want them to land? But then also the people who engage with that like say you get published somewhere or you know, you're on a big podcast In your mind, I know like for my strategic brain. I have my thoughts But where would you want the listeners or the viewers to land as well? Any thoughts?
Nicole Pearl (11:24)
Okay.
Yeah, so the first part of it, let's say you're pitching and the question is, are you pitching your founder story? Are you pitching a product? Like think about what you're pitching and then lead them to the page that if it's you're pitching a new product, then you want a hyperlink to the page where they're going to easily be able to access what they need to see. Maybe your homepage is fine and gives you a nice.
Laura Kendrick (11:37)
Mm-hmm.
12:00 Navigating Press and Call to Action Strategies
Nicole Pearl (12:00)
understanding of your brand and it's a beautiful homepage with key messaging and that's fine too. It's just like where do want me to get fast so that you're gonna through your website it will answer my questions. I'll see that you're legit, maybe you've been featured before, maybe you haven't like it's like those key questions I want to know is like a journalist if I'd be excited about you or your service. So it's definitely fluid because depending on what your goal is that would be
the specific link that I'd hyperlinked. There's not like a one size fits all. And then on the flip side, it's kind of like, where do you want your call to action to be? Now, if you're pitching a journalist, I know this is slightly off topic, but the last thing I want anyone here to do is to pitch a journalist and then say, and if you feature me or my products, like I need you to do this, this and this, and you have to do this specific website. Like, no, not cool. Like you don't tell a journalist how or what necessarily to write.
Laura Kendrick (12:31)
I love that.
Nicole Pearl (12:58)
but you can of course be including like, hey, we're doing a 30 % off sale right now and let them know about that. So your call to action is gonna be at the time, let's say you go on TV or you're doing a podcast, you pick the call to action that's appropriate for what you're trying to promote at the time. For sure, if you're doing, like I said, a speaking engagement, a place where you're gonna be talking or like you're gonna be having the mouthpiece.
It is your responsibility. It's not even an option. is your responsibility. Like I task you with identifying what is the appropriate call to action that you're going to send people to, to either drive traffic to your website, to let them know about a special coupon code, like whatever it is. If you don't do that, it's a huge missed opportunity that is great visibility. But then part of the other side is the monetization and I want you to convert. So that's my goal for you.
Laura Kendrick (13:55)
Yes.
Nicole Pearl (13:56)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (13:56)
Yes. And that is a big part that's missing from the visibility. But just to leap back for one second before we go down that path, I love that your answer is it depends because that's the best answer because it always does.
Nicole Pearl (14:08)
This
is such a subjective and that's why it's like you're entitled to have messaging that you then adjust and modify. And so I don't think it's ever like you are handcuffed to specific messaging or even if you are on TV and you're talking about one thing, like it is okay to evolve, change, switch things up. You have permission.
Laura Kendrick (14:10)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, I love that. I also love that you brought up monetizing the visibility because this is a piece that's missing from a lot of thought processes about visibility where people are aiming just to be seen, but not necessarily thinking about how can I capture this audience, this space, this conversation and actually convert it into my business or at least.
14:51 Monetizing Visibility and Brand Awareness
Nicole Pearl (14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (14:59)
transition these people into my space, the people who feel called. So do talk a little bit about that, especially in the space of more traditional media, because I think there are definitely conversations happening around the newer modalities like podcasting and things happening. But I don't hear a whole lot of people talking about how to monetize like being on the Today Show or being featured in Forbes or one of those places that, as you said,
You can't just be like, link to my sales page.
Nicole Pearl (15:31)
Right. And I can speak to it from like personal reasons too, like in addition to helping my clients get featured in Forbes, I too have gotten myself on the Today Show and Forbes and stuff. here's what I would say. I first want to clarify that when it comes to press and visibility, if somebody's like, well, what's my ROI? If anybody tries to say to you,
you will make this much money as a result of having this visibility, I would say run, because that's the F. I would say that visibility and all this stuff, number one is about brand awareness. And then obviously brand awareness will take you to sales, but it is your responsibility to once you get that brand awareness to then use it to get sales. can't just expect.
Laura Kendrick (16:08)
Mm-hmm.
Nicole Pearl (16:22)
⁓ a segment or a mention whatever to live without you. I mean, yeah, that would be great. It's on the website and will convert. Somebody reads it in Forbes and they buy from you. Wonderful. But it's also you need to take the initiative and then market yourself as Forbes, share that story. And that's what makes it really interesting.
I just want to clarify that press is different than sales and like so advertising, if you spend money on ads, yes, there's an ROI. It directly converts to sales because that's like a one time investment you are paying for a very targeted ad, but it doesn't live forever. Whereas brand awareness is something you own a list forever. It builds your reputation, your credibility. it makes it 10 times easier to close.
Laura Kendrick (16:57)
Right.
Nicole Pearl (17:05)
as well because it's selling for you without you selling yourself. So when someone's like, ⁓ you've been on the Today Show, you've been featured, okay, suddenly I'm the real deal. There's no questions. I have that innate built-in trust factor. I don't have to prove it to you that I'm the real deal. So to me, that's like priceless value, but I can't give you a data-driven number, which I know filmy people
Laura Kendrick (17:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
17:33 Leveraging Media Features for Business Growth
And I think that that's a thing too, that people, mean, those of us who are playing the game get it, that we are truly in a trust recession. People are not just buying just to buy. You have to prove that you follow through. You have to prove that your website, your social media isn't just bluster, that it's real. And so having those icons and that actually being published, actually being featured does give that credibility, which is amazing. My question to you is,
other than like using those kind of like adding to your trust bar and that kind of stuff. How do you use those features to your benefit that's possibly a little bit more creative? Look, what are your thoughts there?
Nicole Pearl (18:08)
Mm-hmm.
I think it might sound obvious, but it makes a huge difference. you know, for example, I was on TV yesterday and a bunch of brands were featured. So what are each of those brands doing right now? I am telling them that they need to post that on their social media, share it in all of their channels. Obviously you add it to your website and it is a conversation that you will continuously have. It's not like, I'm sharing it one time or we're celebrating this win and there's different ways to share the story. But
that media and that amazing press hit will never expire. And so you can just use it in a myriad of ways to get different people's attention.
Laura Kendrick (18:57)
And it seems obvious when you're doing it, but not everybody does that. They really don't. They just kind of, you know, go to New York, get on the Today Show, which rock on, hell yeah. I wanna do that. Like that sounds fun. ⁓ But right, they go home and they're like, the tens of thousands of people saw it. I put the icon on my website, done and dusted. But interestingly, like you get to drop that everywhere. You get to drop that in your about section on a sales page, on your about page. Like it adds that little.
Nicole Pearl (19:12)
and then they go home and then do nothing with it.
Laura Kendrick (19:26)
nugget of credibility, you can add it in a blog post or a social media post where it's like even a little story 10 years from now. That time I went to New York and went on the Today Show and I can't like I don't cable anymore so I don't even know who's on the Today Show anymore but like you know
Nicole Pearl (19:38)
No, no,
for sure. I have a friend who got approached by an investor and ended up selling her business and he found her because she was mentioned in Vogue and she ended up getting approached and like had this incredible exit from press that she because she was mentioned in the press. And again, at this point, she's not the one that was driving the story. So that was like a nice bonus for her. But
Had she imagined, had she been driving that story, maybe it would have happened sooner. Maybe there would have been multiple people, who knows? And even if you're pitching investors, all that stuff matters.
Laura Kendrick (20:17)
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Yeah. And I love the kind of broad reach of it all. That PR plays a big role. And I know it's not necessarily on the radar of any of people who are like brand new to business. They might not be thinking in these terms yet. Once you've been around for a bit, it's got to go beyond the, yes, I write a blog post and I send an email to my people and I post on Instagram every day. It needs to go. Or if you're looking, it doesn't need to go. But if your goal is a bigger reach or
more sales more easily. These things have huge approach. And even if your goal is one day to be able to sell your business, mean, what an interesting kind of pivot that can be of an unexpected result from something that seems kind of seemingly innocuous or something that's like just on the to do list of like, you know, must pitch big titles and then like, holy crap, I just got a huge deal to retire early.
Nicole Pearl (21:19)
Yeah, and I think that sometimes when you hear PR, can feel mysterious or you feel like, I'm not ready for that or ⁓ like, I'm not big enough for that. And that's kind of like why I've opened up the gates, so to speak, because first of all, journalists and the media love discovering really cool new founders and stories and products. So like to not be doing it is a disservice to yourself and to, you know, other people discovering you.
But it's actually, once you realize the way that our minds work, it's not as mysterious as it seems. It's very possible to do. You don't have to have a pocketful of 50K in order for it to be your turn. And it's kind of what I'm doing is because I just saw so many people getting left behind because they just didn't know. And I think that's ridiculous.you shouldn't not have the opportunity simply because you don't know or you don't have the connections or you don't have the money. I think that there's an, yeah, I hate missed opportunities, but that's all, you know, another thing.
20:23 Final Thoughts and Where to Find Nicole Pearl
Laura Kendrick (22:26)
love that. Yeah,
was such a good goal. Okay, so where can people find you?
Nicole Pearl (22:34)
⁓ please go to my Instagram. It's at Nicole Pearl Beauty Girl. So that's one place, cause I'd love to like meet you in the DMs. And then my website is NicolePearl.com. And I don't know, should we talk about like that, you know, how this, it's funny because we're talking about like messaging and everything. And I want to be like, but don't judge because I'm kind of.
to be frank, you know, committing some sins with messaging. And I don't know, maybe anyone else that's like listening is in the position where like, you know, I had one business, loved it, discovered, you know, what people really needed and started my PR coaching business. And I'm using my note, cold pearl.com website as a bridge to kind of both myself as a journalist and on air personality and as a PR coach. So it will come together at some point, but to be frank, like the messaging right now,
is a bit mumble jumbled and but that's okay because right we can all have to do it in steps we can't do everything at once and so as long as you give yourself grace you're aware you acknowledge and you know but more exciting things to come with my new sales page that will be unveiling soon so yeah
Laura Kendrick (23:36)
Mm-hmm. Great.
I love it. I love
it. Well, thank you so much for endowing us with all of your unbelievable wisdom. It's been amazing. I mean, I've loved working with you. I've loved being your friend. Like, I've learned so much. And I'm so glad that all the people of the summit get to hear it as well, because it is a wealth of information. And it is a wealth of information that is real, that is customized, and honestly, that is...
Not only is it thoughtful, but it bypasses the bullshit, which is what I really love about you, is that it's just like, no, this is fine. Let's just do the things. And it's great. I love it.
Nicole Pearl (24:29)
Yay.
The Split-Second Funnel.
Emily shows how visuals grab attention in milliseconds and words move buyers to act—so your design and messaging finally pull in the same direction.
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Emily Paulsen is a Brand Growth Expert and Founder of Electric Collab, a psychology-based brand studio. After 14 years working in brand and marketing for well-known companies from Abercrombie & Fitch and The Wendy’s Company to scrappy startups and small businesses, Emily started Electric Collab to help leaders own their individuality and scale their business with a brand that reflects the premium, unique value they deliver. Her comprehensive approach delivers a cohesive brand ecosystem built for where you're headed.
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00:00 Introduction to Branding and Consumer Behavior
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Emily, I am so excited you're here. I actually, I really cannot wait for this conversation. I think this is going to be so interesting and where you're coming at this particular conversation from a slightly different angle, but you are playing in all the brain spaces that my brain like, like all those little nooks and crannies that my mind will wander into and just have a little thought party of its own. So I'm really excited. But let's start with you sharing.
Emily Paulsen (00:24)
Me too.
Laura Kendrick (00:27)
a little bit about yourself, who you are.
Emily Paulsen (00:30)
Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really pumped for this conversation too. My name is Emily and I've been in the brand space for quite a long time. So I worked in corporate branding for 14 years, started with companies like Abercrombie and Fitch and the Wendy's company. It's like a shock to go from skinny jeans to french fries. And you can imagine what was more fun to brand and market. ⁓ But
I fell in love with branding and really the consumer behavior of what makes us buy things. How do we connect to brands? Why are some brands more successful than others? And I really had a front row seat in being on the brand teams of some of these really huge organizations. And then later in the small business space and kind of in the startup world, I had a front row seat to see what works, what doesn't, where are they putting resources, what things are kind of fun but fluffy and don't really move the needle.
and what things are really critical to build a relationship with your audience, which is what we all want to do as small business owners and entrepreneurs. So I started a brand studio called Electric Collab four years ago. And I say that it's a psychology-based brand studio because it really is rooted in that consumer behavior. And my goal is to help people connect with the clients that they want through language, design, and then their digital presence, which is really what we're going to focus on today.
Laura Kendrick (01:39)
Hmm.
01:21 The Psychology Behind Branding
Emily Paulsen (01:48)
understanding how to do that on a website so that your brand is working for you.
Laura Kendrick (01:53)
I love that. And I love that you're tapped into the psychology based side of that and like really kind of rooted in what's really working because there is often an element and I'm not saying this is for branding professionals necessarily, but certainly in our business space where people are, I mean, let's be real. I picked the colors because they were pretty. I picked the fonts because they were easy to read and I just, I knew they would be everywhere. Yeah.
Emily Paulsen (02:15)
Okay.
Right. Yeah. I think that's what most people do. Right. Like what else would you do in the early days of branding? You're kind of just going with your personal taste. Maybe a trend, even if you don't realize you're choosing something because it's a trend. You know, it's all over Pinterest or you're buying from a brand out in the real world and you love the way they're using color or fonts or whatever. So, yeah, I think that's how most people start. But once you once you kind of get past that phase, it's really fun to understand the science behind all those things. I mean,
Laura Kendrick (02:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily Paulsen (02:49)
our brains connect the dots when we see a certain font or when we see a certain color combinations that signals things to our subconscious. And all of that is really real and rooted in data and science. It's not just like, you know, hippie dippy stuff. So yeah.
Laura Kendrick (03:03)
Right, right. And the branding is intrinsically tied to the copy. Like they are, they're based on similar principles. And it's really interesting. was actually on a call with a bunch of like deep thinkers a couple of weeks ago and it was really interesting. Cause there was somebody was giving a little presentation on the call and she was a copywriter and a branding person. So she had this like mix of both worlds and it was really fascinating. Cause one thing that she laid out is
what is the order of operations that this should really be done in? Like, should the copy be done first, or should the branding, the pictures, and all of that be done? And it was a fascinating take that she had. Because of course, a bunch of copywriters are like, the copy, duh. Grass is always greener on our side here. ⁓ And she did say that. She's like, technically speaking, yes, the copy would come first. But interestingly, the psychology of
Emily Paulsen (03:45)
Okay.
Yep.
Laura Kendrick (03:59)
the brand owner and the customer says that they actually need to be done kind of in tandem or like being evolved at the same time where maybe, of course, because we don't all have huge budgets and teams, so maybe it's like you're upgrading a little bit of the copy and then you're upgrading a little bit of the branding and you're kind of going back and forth on that. But the buyer gravitates to the visuals. They gravitate to those things. But the foundation of all of that
04:28 The Interconnection of Copy and Branding
is the very, very deep base work that is done to get the messaging and the copy in the right place. So like the copy and all that goes behind it really does serve as this foundational piece to the branding. But also you can't ignore the branding. You can't just be like, it's just about the words.
Emily Paulsen (04:47)
Totally. No, they're both so critically important. And I love her response to that because they do have to work together. And we know that our brains process images in 13 milliseconds. That's incredibly hard to conceptualize. And we do that because in the past, we needed those skills, those shortcuts for survival. We were assessing, is this a cheetah running at me, or is this my friend? Is this food, or is this poison?
Laura Kendrick (04:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
What a choice, a cheetah or a friend.
Emily Paulsen (05:14)
I don't know why that's what my brain thinks, like a cheetah running at me in the wild, as if I'm like in the Serengeti or something. ⁓ But back in the day, you we had to make these really split decisions with limited information and that brain eye connection evolved. Now in modern times, we're using our incredible eyeballs and the way they send signals to our brain to scroll social media and shop online and live in the digital world. So.
Yes, like the imagery, the colors, the space, the use of white space and open space that we use on our website or in brand design, those things capture attention. That's what kind of gets us to stop for a second. But it's always the words that move people to take action. Nobody buys based on a pretty logo alone, even if they're obsessed with it. So they are so interconnected. Both pieces have to work together to really make somebody feel something. And that's how we buy. We always buy based on a feeling.
Laura Kendrick (06:10)
love that. I love that. it just... And I think that's true. like I'm thinking actually, cause just last night I was watching ⁓ one of the shows by like the renovation shows by the Magnolia company. And it was funny cause I was noticing how she has very specific taste when she's designing. And it is beautiful.
Emily Paulsen (06:24)
Mm. Okay, yep.
Laura Kendrick (06:35)
Like everything she does is stunningly beautiful, but it is totally not my taste. Like I wouldn't, I adore looking at it on TV. I don't want those dark colors on my own walls. Right. And just to kind of, I'm like in my mind thinking about that of like the aesthetic of that company and how successful it's become because of the aesthetic she's set up. But at the end of the day, it wasn't necessary. What turned them into what I assume at this point has got to be like
Emily Paulsen (06:46)
Right, yeah, not for you.
Laura Kendrick (07:05)
billion dollar company. What it has gotten it to is beyond just like the color she's putting on the walls. It is about all of the like underlying messaging that has come out in the magazines, in all the shows they've produced, in all of these bits and pieces. And that filters into our own business. And I love that you kind of put that that piece on about it's like, and I think that's, that's a really great way to kind of look at it too, is that it's
the visuals that are going to grab people in. Like if you're almost thinking about it as like a split second funnel, if you will, the visuals are the top of the funnel into the mid funnel. And then it's going to somewhere in the middle of the funnel transition into what are the words on the page? What are they saying? And then the bottom of the funnel is a hundred percent like what's being said, what's being offered. How is this working? And that's a really strong way to look at the relationship between those two things.
Emily Paulsen (07:41)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly. And I love that you brought up that example, because even something as mainstream and mega now as Magnolia Network isn't for everybody. Right. So of course, like some of us look at that. It's not my taste either. Yeah. Right. Well, they have a pretty mainstream audience, but it's not for me. I would never purchase anything from them, not because, you know, no shade. It's just not my personal taste. So I think that's a really critical piece of this. What you just described is the funnel there.
Laura Kendrick (08:15)
in Target now. So apparently yes.
Emily Paulsen (08:32)
It's understanding that that's kind of how the, if we say the split second funnel, that that's how it works. All these pieces have to work together. The design, the language, you know, starting with that hook, that headline, and then getting into the details of what you actually have for sale. But it's also understanding who this stuff is for. What do they need to see? What colors are going to resonate with them? What type of digital experience and storytelling is going to prove to them that we know where you are today, we know what you want, and we're the bridge to take you there.
So I think it's important sometimes in branding, we get really obsessed with ourselves accidentally. It's like, what do I want my company to feel like? What do I have to say? What's different about me? What's my favorite colors? And like, yes, that's important. You want to feel very authentic and aligned with your brand and really proud of it. But it's equally important that we're thinking about what the audience cares about in all of these categories. So what we're creating doesn't just make us feel really good. It actually resonates with the right people.
09:30 Understanding Your Audience's Emotions
Laura Kendrick (09:30)
Yes, yes, talk more about that. Talk about like how you think about how the brand features. like that's like I think in terms of the words, I think in terms of the messaging. and I can definitely see it. I can see how the aesthetic pulls in a vibe. It shares a story about the brand itself and or for many of us the person behind the brand, the founder.
Emily Paulsen (09:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (09:57)
And that is towing a line of the messaging for sure. It is telling people you are in the right place or not. Like I'm actually thinking of a friend of mine who has a website that she actually kind of has a somewhat similar vibe to mine where it's very playful. And so there's these very playful images of her all over the website. And that, I mean, that tells a story that if you are like wearing a suit and tie all the time and very straight lace, this ain't the person for you. And so like that is giving an instantaneous like,
Emily Paulsen (10:18)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (10:27)
is this interesting or not interesting? But I'm really, I wanna dig deeper on that.
Emily Paulsen (10:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, OK. So if we believe that people buy, no matter what the price point is, no matter what the expense is, if we believe that they buy because they're seeking a feeling, and there's a lot of data around that. I mean, there's multiple studies that show 90 to 95 % of purchasing decisions happen in the subconscious. We know that ads with, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (10:52)
mean, can we
pause right there and just like make sure that one lands on everybody's ears that people buy because they're seeking a feeling that the price doesn't matter? That's like,
Emily Paulsen (11:03)
Yes. Seriously, that is huge. That is huge.
And it takes a while to get there because we naturally, we bring our own feelings and our imposter syndrome and our self-doubt and whatever into our business. So it's like, my gosh, could I charge that much? And of course, the deliverable, the value that you provide and the result has to be there, of course. But I'm assuming everybody listening to this does provide incredible results.
Laura Kendrick (11:11)
Yes, for sure.
Emily Paulsen (11:28)
And a lot of clients come to me because they want to serve more premium people. They want to charge a more premium price point. getting into the mindset that, and again, there's so much data around this, like there's studies about ads with emotional resonance and how those boost sales, ⁓ brand loyalty, how that comes when we use emotional resonance in our language and in our design. So we know we need to make this emotional connection. How do we do that?
I always, when I do foundational work with clients, and I'm sure you have a system for doing this too with your copy, I always do like an emotional deep dive into their ideal client. So that's making a really robust list of fears, frustrations, anxieties. What are they terrified about? What would they never say out loud to you or anybody else? But you know, it's on their mind and it's impacting their decision making. So we want to get really clear on like deeply understanding their problem state.
Laura Kendrick (12:13)
Yes.
Yes.
Emily Paulsen (12:23)
And then equally important, deeply understanding the solution state. So we know, like, what are they feeling today when they're seeking solutions, when they're out there Googling, when they're asking chat GPT about our services or our products, what is their headspace? And then we want to know what they want. So when it comes to using a brand to actually like speak to people and say, send the right message, if we know that when they're searching for something, they're really stressed out, they're really tired, they're overwhelmed. ⁓
Maybe even maybe emotions that are worse than that. Maybe we're selling to people who are depressed, highly anxious. OK, well, then I'm not going to bombard my website with text. I'm not going to use red, which gives a really energizing emotional response. I'm not going to have a bunch of animation and things that like move around all over the place because the person who I want to land on my website and stay there long enough to really understand how I can help them, they're going to click away.
Laura Kendrick (13:19)
Hmm.
Emily Paulsen (13:19)
And they probably wouldn't say, I didn't hire that business because she used red. This stuff is subconscious. We don't even realize we're doing it. But it's just like, it's not meeting me where I am emotionally, so I'm not interested. So on the other side of that, we want to make it an experience that's really enjoyable. We want to use light calming colors, if that's what our person really needs. You mentioned playful images. If somebody needs to be inspired, they aspire to having more free time, more freedom.
more authenticity, more self-expression than having images of you self-expressing yourself in a hot pink suit or whatever that is, cheetah print pants, then subconsciously we're like, I kind of wish I could wear cheetah print pants. What is this girl all about? And again, you're not going to buy from her because she has cheetah print pants. But that's what made you stay. And it's kind of all the pieces combined when you have really great copy to back that imagery up.
you've created an emotional experience that makes people want to hang out. It makes them want to engage, learn a little bit more. And then eventually when all the pieces align, they convert and become a client.
14:24 Creating an Emotional Experience Through Branding
Laura Kendrick (14:24)
You have just kind of blown my mind wide open a little bit because, I like, know for anybody who's listening to this, who's a branding person is like, of course, Emily's like, preaches the truth. But the thing is, is my brain doesn't naturally gravitate to that space when it comes to visuals. It definitely gravitates to that space when it comes to words and to strategy and like basically everything, but the visuals. And I love what you just laid down there because it really does play in.
Like, yes, we do deep dives in messaging, deep, deep dives. And what you're talking about is that. And then we confirm through voice of customer where we're actually asking the ideal client, what is your pain point? And of course, they're not going to share in all likelihood the thing that they're not going to share with anybody. Like, that is sussed out through the person who's working with them all the time and can kind of see through what is going on there through the trends. But all of these things.
Emily Paulsen (15:12)
Totally.
Laura Kendrick (15:22)
And this is why, like going back to that call a couple of weeks ago, this is why she was making that argument for in a perfect world. Yes, like if you had a business that you were building totally behind the scenes and like, you know, let's pretend you were some you were just going to launch to great fortunes and fame right out of the gate and you had the ability to build, you would start with the copy because you are establishing all of that and all of these things that are going to tell the
the visuals, the branding pieces, like what are the right colors? Because you're getting that so deeply in the copy work. I love how this is like playing together. And I've never really thought about, and I will now, ⁓ about like thinking about if this person's anxious, this is not a color that they need to be seeing, or they don't need to see a bunch of GIFs jumping around at them. They need to be seeing something different. That is such a like.
Emily Paulsen (16:04)
You
Laura Kendrick (16:18)
I'm thinking way outside my selfish, I speak in GIFs Honestly, if I could only talk in GIFs to people, I would, because I find them so fun.
Emily Paulsen (16:26)
They are fun. They are fun. And there's audiences that want that fun, you know, I mean, maybe that's maybe that matches up with your ideal client. And that's fantastic. Or maybe you find it doesn't and you talk in GIFs with your friends and you don't use them on your website, right? It depends and
Laura Kendrick (16:29)
They are. But that's about me.
Emily Paulsen (16:44)
There are definitely cases where I work with somebody and it's like, my gosh, their personality is their ideal client, perfect fit, easy breezy. We'll just amplify them through digital design and it's going to work. There's other cases where, not that it becomes performative because that doesn't work either. It has to be authentic and aligned, but we can put certain feet forward in the way we present our work just to make sure our ideal person doesn't miss it. And that's the beauty of starting.
with those fears and frustrations, like we have to remember where they are before they find us. On the other side, they're gonna feel great. They're gonna feel amazing. You all those desires we're going to have fulfilled, and then it's all fun and games and GIFs you know, and that's a great space. But where are they when they're seeking us and how do we meet them there? And there's such a wide range of emotions. Like I go to, you know, in these examples talking about stress or anxiety, make sure that we're calming and kind and like open.
Laura Kendrick (17:18)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Paulsen (17:38)
That is one way to do it. there's a million. That scale is huge, right? Like when we think about Liquid Death Water, it's a very emotionally resonant brand. It's literally about death. It's skulls and crossbones and heavy metal and harsh colors. But that's because their audience wants to feel bad ass, right? Like they want to drink water at a concert, but they don't want to feel lame about it. So they're creating an emotional experience just as like,
Laura Kendrick (17:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Paulsen (18:07)
a lovey dovey or light and airy brand is. It's not about boxing ourselves into a certain look or feeling. It's just about understanding your audience to the level that you can build something for them. Totally.
Laura Kendrick (18:16)
You can evoke that emotion. I have a question for you. the answer might be, no, you haven't thought about this. But have you thought of or have you worked with people where you are thinking about the branding evolving and becoming different as the funnel moves on? Where it like perhaps starts in one way and then it starts to shift. You kind of alluded to it before where it's like, it might be the, you know,
homepage on the website or the landing page for the lead magnet is meeting them where they are in that like, you maybe there's no GIFs It's very soothing colors. And then after the outcome, the kind of the people who have worked with the with you and have gotten all that anxiety to go away. Now, suddenly there can be lots of GIFs and it's a different a slightly different thing. Have you actually applied that or thought about applying that to a funnel?
Emily Paulsen (19:09)
Yeah, I think the piece that's important about this is aspiration. So even in those early days where we are, you we're thinking about where our people are emotionally when they come to us. We're also thinking about what they ultimately want. And that's what we want to showcase, too. So it's not all like we know you're down. We know that you're, you know, whatever the problem is, right? We know that you're struggling. We know you have pain around this specific topic. We don't want to completely stay there. We want to show in the branding, too. Like, here's the other side.
Laura Kendrick (19:13)
Mm.
19:39 The Evolution of Branding in the Customer Journey
Emily Paulsen (19:39)So our shiny client results, what we can show through photography of ourselves or our clients, if that's something that applies. Before and afters of copy, before and afters of homes for home organization. I've worked with wedding planners, like of course all the vibrant imagery of what the wedding looks and feels like. So when you make it aspirational as well, then that's what allows your brand to last a little bit better. So it's not like, OK, now you're on the other side. Let's rebrand for the solution state.
You want consistency through branding. Once we land on the perfect color palette, the fonts, how we're going to lay out our layout and the way we do space within brand collateral, you want to keep that the same so people recognize it over time. We want stickiness. The golden arches for McDonald's, yeah, they've tweaked them a little bit over the years, but pretty freaking recognizable. And of course, I choose the one. Yeah, the Nike swoosh, the Apple Apple. It's not like, OK, now you have the iPhone.
Laura Kendrick (20:29)
Yeah. The Nike swoosh. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Paulsen (20:37)
you don't let's get rid of the apple because you you you connected with something you connected with something that made you make the purchase we don't want to strip that away once you're on the other side so keeping that aspiration in the brand is what allows it to always work for your person no matter where they are in their journey with you
Laura Kendrick (20:40)
Could you imagine? Yeah, that's a like, point.
I love that. I love that. All right. I don't want to like keep you forever. So, though I could, honestly, like, do you want to just stay for the next three hours and we will just keep talking?
Emily Paulsen (21:10)
I'm sure that you and I could, I would love to, are you kidding me? I feel like it's been two minutes, so.
Laura Kendrick (21:16)
I know, it's so good, so good. ⁓ So, first of all, where can people find you?
Emily Paulsen (21:24)
Hmm. Yeah, I love connecting clearly. love talking about branding. So I'm always up to meet with people do one on one calls. My website is electric collab, colab.com. You can find me on Instagram at Hey, Emily Paulson. And yeah, both those places are the best place to get in touch.
Laura Kendrick (21:43)
Amazing. All right, any final thoughts or words like big truth bombs you want to drop on the listeners? No pressure.
Emily Paulsen (21:51)
Yes, I want to tell people branding should be fun. know, like the consumer behavior, the data, the statistics, the quote unquote rules of how we craft these things. All of that is real. But especially when you work with a brand partner, that's their job. That's our job to keep those things in mind. There's so many things we have to do in business. Like we have to do our freaking taxes. You know, let this be one of the things that feels like self expression. And it feels like
relationship building with the people who you built your business to serve. Branding can be such a positive and really therapeutic experience and sharing yourself, your gifts, your unique expertise with the world. So I hope people find a way to work with someone or work within yourself and keep the joy in branding.
Laura Kendrick (22:35)
here.
Yes.
23:37 Final Thoughts on Joy in Branding
I adore that you just said that. now I'm going to have to do it, where there's you and Justin Blackman are going to have to, like people are going to have to listen to these back to back. He's a part of the summit and he's a brand voice expert. And he's a friend of mine and a mentor of mine as well. And that's actually something really interesting because in the copy world, there are loads of rules of what makes good copy and what makes bad copy. mean, honestly, it's full of rules. It's insane.Emily Paulsen (22:52)
Love that!
Laura Kendrick (23:08)
At the end of the day, what's really interesting when he talks about brand voice is when you're assessing somebody's brand voice or your own to look at it through the lens of maybe it behooves the brand to actually break those rules. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad copy if there's longer sentences. I mean, it is bad copy if that's not your brand voice, then yeah, that's bad copy. But if it is actually how the brand voice communicates and the
emotion and the feeling that you're trying to evoke when people interact with the copy, then that is not bad copy. It's just you're doing it your way and you're having fun with it. So I love that you landed right there because that is where like the two worlds, I mean, it's amazing how much the copy and the branding really are right wrapped up in each other. Like they are two things that need to be thought about at the same time. They need to be in an ideal world done at the same time where they're
Emily Paulsen (23:58)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (24:05)
building on each other because they are intrinsically tied together in so many ways.
Emily Paulsen (24:12)
could not agree more. Absolutely.
Laura Kendrick (24:15)
Only like five more minutes added on after I was like, truth thumb. Should we keep going? No. It is. It is. Well, thank you so much, Emily, for adding your genius to this summit because it's just amazing. And I'm so glad you're a part of it.
Emily Paulsen (24:18)
Yeah. Well, it's important. This is important to say.
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Brand Voice ≠ Personality (But They’re BFFs).
Personality = the whole brand vibe (visuals, UX, service). Voice = the words. Build a founder-independent, still-you voice—and keep vibe and language in sync.
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Justin Blackman is a brand voice expert who goes overboard. He’s written for more than 429 people and dozens of brands, and created voice guides for industry experts including Amy Porterfield, Stu McLaren, Todd Herman, Ali Abdaal, and Danny Iny.
He uses a process called Brand Ventriloquism to analyze and replicate the nuances that make your writing voice unique, and documents it so other writers can scale your content without sacrificing authenticity. He’s also worked with top brands including IHG hotels, 5-hour Energy, and Red Bull.
When not embellishing his own bio, he runs workshops for writers at Brand Voice Academy, and helps founders identify the true essence of their brand, so writing becomes a snap, no matter who’s creating the content. -
93 delightful ways to sign off your emails
Use these fun & funky-yet-functional lines to add personality to everything you send and become even more unforgettable
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00:00 Introduction to Brand Voice and Personality
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
such high pressure. Justin, I'm pumped you're here. And for the people who don't know who you are, brace yourselves.
And for the people who don't know who you are, tell them who you are.
Justin Blackman (00:14)
I am Justin Blackman and I'm a mess. Sweet, yay, fancy mess club, there we go. I'm a brand voiced expert, ⁓ formerly a copywriter and marketer and now basically just really helping people sound better on paper and showing up better in real life.
Laura Kendrick (00:18)
Welcome Justin, I'm a mess too.
And in my opinion, one of my favorite, like, deep thinkers. Like, I like the conversations. This is why I say brace yourself, folks, because this is never a conversation that's like, tell me what a brand voice is. It's always digging deep and talking about the things in a way that just lights your brain up. So I'm really pumped you're here.
Justin Blackman (00:54)
Yeah, no, it's funny. Yeah, I kind of live in the details and it's not just about what you say, but it's not even how you say it. It's sort of like why, what happened somewhere that made you say that and what's the thing that's really controlling the thing that's showing up as the thing. Like it's just, it's digging in. I love it. That's just.
Laura Kendrick (01:05)
Hmm.
I feel like I want to like lay down on the trauma therapy couch right now and like, why did I just say the shit I just said?
Justin Blackman (01:22)
That's kind of the way that it works. ⁓ Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in our words.
Laura Kendrick (01:28)
Right?
Right. But that's an important thing when we're talking about our websites, our copy, our marketing is, I mean, it's, it all starts with the words. That's what grabs people. Well, I should say it all starts often with images, what also pulls us all the way through are the words.
Justin Blackman (01:45)
Yeah, but they've got to work hand in hand, right? Because there's the images like I mean you're watching this then you see like bright blue background You see Super Grover you see Star Wars. It's not that I'm talking about that But that's the stuff the images the imagery is the the images I Speak good The images tell you who I am, but that's not how I talk I mean a little bit you just so I sounded a little bit drunk there, but
Laura Kendrick (01:47)
Mm-hmm.
Justin Blackman (02:14)
It's there's there's part of it between like what does the imagery do to your brand? And then what do the words do and how do they work cohesively? And a lot of people say like, I love your your your writing. It's so fun as I get. I mean, a lot of my writing is fun, but it's it's less fun over the years as I've gotten a little bit more deeper and into the details. But my branding is still fun. So there's this balance like if my branding were were just dark and heavy, my copy
would just exude more heaviness. So you need to balance all that. So there's, we talked about the imagery, but that's really the personality of the brand as opposed to the voice, which is, what I'm saying, how I'm talking, the words, all that good stuff.
02:59 The Importance of Words and Imagery in Branding
Laura Kendrick (02:59)
Way to artfully loop all the chaos right back to where we wanted to go. Bravo. Well done. So let's talk about that because so often we're told that good copy is full of personality.
Justin Blackman (03:04)
It's what I do.
It depends on the personality. They do, right? And that doesn't mean that they're not good, but if the copy sounds like them, then I don't know. So there's different schools of thought on this. Like my original background in copywriting was direct response. And it's all about the offer and there's persuasion and understanding the emotion and all of that stuff behind it. In that type of writing, the goal of the writer is to be invisible.
Laura Kendrick (03:16)
I mean fair, there are some people out there who'd royally suck.
Mmm, fun.
Justin Blackman (03:46)
You don't want to feel the person writing it. You want to feel your feels. You want, like the reader shouldn't ever be brought out of the moment. They should just be continuing and just nodding their head saying, yes, this is me. my God, I need this revelation. Here's my credit card information. That's the goal of that. But in the days of the worldwide web and this new internet, this fancy, whatever we call it, the WWWs.
The HTTP colon, backslash, backslash.
Laura Kendrick (04:16)
feel like you
should have a wig that's like father time as you say that in the age of the internet. Like, my God.
Justin Blackman (04:24)
So now it's, we, when we write, we very often want people to feel us. That's the thing that separates us. That's our point of differentiation is us. And we want people to understand who we are and get us. And a lot of people, you know, the course creators, things like that, there's, we all have tons of competition and doing the same thing. I'm not the only person that talks about Brand Voice. I'm not the only writer. There's, there's thousands of us, millions of you on LinkedIn, but
The thing is like, want you to, I want you to know who I am and I want you to choose me because I'm me. Not just the talent. I mean, the talent gets leveled off and AI can write good enough copy for a lot of people, but we all look at the AI copy and be like, well, that doesn't sound right, like me. And it's cause that that's just making you sound like everybody else. So this unique perspective, this unique voice, unique style that you bring in is the fingerprints.
That's the identifiable thing that says, ⁓ okay. That's a Laura piece, that's a Justin piece. That's how we do it.
Laura Kendrick (05:30)
I find it interesting the difference between personality and brand voice, especially in this age that we're in where a lot of founders are solopreneurs and those lines are blurry sometimes between the individual and the business.
05:48 Navigating the Balance of Personality and Brand Voice
Justin Blackman (05:48)
Yeah, there is a lot of that. The personality is really just, it's more than the voice. The voice is a piece of the personality, but personality is so much bigger than that. It's not just your words, it's your actions, your branding, your logos, your customer experience. There are a lot of people that say like, want a sort of a streamlined brand voice. I'm like, okay, well then show me what your...
your customer experience is like, what's the UX like? And they show me this thing that's clunky. And I was like, doesn't matter how streamlined your voice is, if your UX is like this, it's not gonna do it. It's actually gonna hurt your conversions because you're setting people up for this one idea and then not delivering it. So we need to expand, streamline to your personality so it affects your offers, it affects the customer journey, all of that stuff.
Laura Kendrick (06:41)
Yeah, that's it. It's so all encompassing that it's interesting. The especially in this age of AI where people think of their brand voice as the simple thing of like send the AI to your home page and ask it what the the brand voice is. But it is like all the things, all the deep dives that we do as marketers and copywriters. is so it's like it just spiders its way right on it.
Justin Blackman (07:05)
Yeah. Yeah. Look, I've had AI do ⁓ deep analysis on my voice and the results are impressive. Completely wrong, but impressive. Like it says it with such confidence. you're this and this. And you're like, no, I'm not. And then like I've done a brand voice analysis for other copywriters and other businesses who have then like asked AI to like analyze their voice. And they're like, this...
This isn't accurate at all. Like Justin got it. Like he asked me questions. We know who this is. AI stuff said like, I'm professional. I'm casual. I'm friendly. So trifecta of nothingness. it's not, like that doesn't mean anything.
Laura Kendrick (07:52)
I feel like that needs to be like on a billboard somewhere, the trifecta of nothingness. But it's so true. I mean, all the cliches that AI, I mean, I don't mean to go down the AI rabbit hole because we could definitely live here these days, it does, it pulls out all these cliches. And the catch is though, is that is bleeding into the way people are writing their own copy in particular, but also I think some copywriters too.
where they're just grabbing on to those phrases. And so it does become wash, rinse, repeat, and the personality is gone. The brand voice is opaque at best. it's all this kind of, I don't know, epidemic of sameness, even worse than it was before.
Justin Blackman (08:39)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, like that the epidemic of sameness and yeah, it's not just an AI thing. The fact is like that trifecta of nothingness has existed for decades, like long before AI ever came into the world. Like every voice guide I've ever seen, going back, you know, over a decade at this point has the word human in it. Okay. There are 8.5 billion humans on the planet. Let's choose one.
08:50 The Role of User Experience in Brand Messaging
Laura Kendrick (08:50)
Mm-hmm. like to write like a squirrel.
Justin Blackman (09:10)
Yeah.
But like, all right, that would actually be fun. Like that's different. Like it would just be short choppy sentences. It would be fast. would have so much like a comma wouldn't even exist. So many exclamation points, random distractions. It would be all over the place and it would be this whirlwind of a brand voice that just has you chasing something until you finally get the nut. And then you forget where it is and you got to do the whole thing over again. It's this wild journey. Like that's fun.
Laura Kendrick (09:14)
Now I'm sitting here thinking about that.
What a fun exercise!
Yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah, I feel like there's gonna be a squirrel off at some point.
Justin Blackman (09:40)
I could do that.
do it.
Laura Kendrick (09:45)
But it is, yeah, mean, ⁓ okay. So let's talk, let's like anchor it into, cause we're, the theme of this is websites. And I love that you were talking about user experience and cause we have talked about that in this summit as well, is this whole picture and the user experience is beyond just the button copy or the micro copy. It is the full experience. And the brand voice is a part of that. The personality of the brand is a part of that.
So I love that you have like looped through here and like again, artfully just like walked your way right into.
Justin Blackman (10:18)
Sure, all deliberate.
Laura Kendrick (10:20)
It's perfect. It's just perfect. So talk to me a little bit, like kind of put it through, how do you see this manifesting on websites? Cause I know there's one thing that, cause it's no secret, you're a mentor of mine. So which I have greatly appreciated learning from you. And one of the things that I like, one of the little nuggets that I really loved is that not looking at the homepage as the evidence to like dig through for the brand voice and that it is
it shows through in a lot stronger ways, if you will, in other places. And I think that's really important for people to understand that it's not just about that really catchy headline on the top of your homepage. That's not the end-all be-all, though it does, you know, a good one will keep the right people on the website.
Justin Blackman (11:10)
Yeah, I mean the right homepage, it's a magazine cover. It's like, it's gotta just have something that speaks to you to say like, okay, I wanna like read the first page, read the second page. So there should be something that says like, hey, here's who I am, here's what I do, here's how I help you. But sometimes just by focusing on here's how I help you with the right voice can kind of do like tell who you are and ⁓ what your approach is. Like my...
my headline on my homepage and has been this way for years, because I can't come up with a better one. It's, hi, I make your brand voice perfect. That's it. It used to be this catchy, long-winded thing, like the perfect copy that makes people love you. it's just like, no. people just, when I would write for them, they'd be like, this is perfect. Like, you made my brand voice perfect. I was like, okay, there we go. That's the thing. That's what I do. I make your brand voice perfect.
11:49 Crafting Effective Headlines and Simplicity in Copy
Laura Kendrick (11:49)
Yeah, it's good. And how perfect is that headline? It's just so good. I mean.
Justin Blackman (12:10)
It's the simplest thing that's there, but like once I realized that people want simplicity, a lot of the humor that used to be in my stuff got stripped out. It's still there, but it's not like, hey, look at me, look at me, I'm funny. Let me just pour and seltzer down your pants. Like it's not that anymore. At one point it kind of was, but now it's just like, no, here's what you want. Here's it straight and simple. As you read on, yeah, there's going to be a little bit more seltzer down your pants, but it's not on the homepage.
Laura Kendrick (12:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Justin Blackman (12:40)
It's just like, just the right words say who you are without you having to say it.
Laura Kendrick (12:46)
Mmm. That's good. And it's yeah, it's funny because I like I'm having this own my own personal revolution in this too with my own website that is desperately and like it's just a fucking mess right now. By the time this goes live, this is my deadline. It will be done. So hopefully anyone listening go double check me and yell at me if it still looks like crap. But honestly, that's where I've gotten to break all the rules. Keep it really simple. Sit down with a pen and paper. Let it flow. Like instead of trying to box it all in and we'll see might be catastrophic we'll find out but I like that that slimmed down
Justin Blackman (13:20)
Yeah.
But like honestly, I love that you just said that because I was like, have this new offer that I've been working on and like everyone's like, I went to go lay out the page and all this stuff and I have templates. And then ultimately I went to pen and paper. I have a desk over there that a computer does not touch. It's my analog desk, pen and paper only. That's where I wrote it. And it was better. it was, and then like once I had to keep components,
Laura Kendrick (13:36)
paper.
Justin Blackman (13:48)
I crossed out the unnecessary things, chunked it up into blocks, and I haven't shown the page to a lot of people yet, but everyone who's seen it is like, my God, this is great. And they're like, how did you get this? I'm like, I literally just wrote it by hand.
Laura Kendrick (14:01)
Came out of my brain. Yeah.
And isn't that where the brand voice when you're a solo founder is probably strongest.
Justin Blackman (14:08)
Yeah. Yeah, I didn't have to worry about typos like the red squiggly lines of judgment and like the paperclip. It looks like you're writing a homepage. I got no.
Laura Kendrick (14:18)
Okay, is that the father time coming back out again? Where?
Justin Blackman (14:21)
It's been 87 years.
Laura Kendrick (14:25)
I don't think I've seen like Clippy, wasn't that his name? I haven't seen Clippy in a long time.
Justin Blackman (14:28)
Very clippy,
14:30 The Impact of AI on Copywriting and Brand Voice
Laura Kendrick (14:30)
that's funny. Yeah, it's interesting how I think there's a resurgence of that, at least in I don't know. I think we're all having the same aneurysm at the same time, because I've talked to a few people who it seems like we're all just kind of going right back to pen and paper. And I was talking to somebody about it. can't remember who now, but I was I found myself getting really lazy with AI like that it was there. So and I can bend it to my will to a certain extent. I mean,
But then it just became a thing of like, ⁓ But now when I sit down to write something, I'm almost refusing to write because it's so easy. But then what are you losing? If I get one more AI pumped out like, this is chef's kiss good, like, fuck you. I've never said that in my life.
Justin Blackman (15:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there's certain, like there was when I was working on an offer before, ⁓ which I will fully admit tanked, like awful, awful sales. was all like AI is like, my God, this is going to sell so great. This is the thing. And it was just all this encouragement. Part of me was like, I'm not so sure. And I used AI to help write the emails, crickets, like nothing, no response, nothing. And when I look at those emails, I don't remember a single word of
Laura Kendrick (15:43)
Yep. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Justin Blackman (15:51)
Like I can look at stuff, you can bring up an email that I wrote six years ago and I'll probably remember some aspect of it. I have absolutely no idea what those sales emails were about. There was no connection, there was nothing in me. Even if the copy sounded like something I might write, I didn't write it. And I just didn't care about it and nobody else did either.
Laura Kendrick (16:10)
days it doesn't like get into your DNA when it doesn't come through your hand, which is interesting. This has been in my car a little bit lately, too, because there was a news story about how I think it was Sweden outlawed all screens in all classrooms. So they've gone back to writing pen and paper, chalkboards or whatever. But all the technology is gone. the statement that I think it was Bill Gates said it, but I could be wrong. Don't take me to the grave on this one. it is that EdTech is a failed experiment.
Justin Blackman (16:27)
Good for them.
Laura Kendrick (16:40)
And there's an element as a former teacher and now somebody who like sits on computers all the time, there is definitely an element of getting it through the like kinesthetic learning that when your hand is moving, your brain works differently, your voice comes through differently, your words process differently. Like our minds are not, have not evolved to be in this space where we can just like pump it out and AI can like, AI is not there at all. It can help if you give it a ton, but it's
Justin Blackman (17:06)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (17:09)
Honestly, I feel like the amount, the time for the input, like the amount of input you have to give it for it to get really good output is, it's a lot. It's almost like, well, probably pen and paper's faster.
Justin Blackman (17:24)
It's, yeah, it's, don't, I'm at the point now, and again, I don't mean to just bash on AI. That's not what I'm here to do. I don't use AI to write anymore. I tried it, failed experiment, but mostly because like I'm a writer and I, I like it. And I understand if you're not a writer, yes, it might write better than you, but it can't be you. It can write okay-ish copy.
17:40 Finding Your Unique Brand Voice
Laura Kendrick (17:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Justin Blackman (17:52)
but it can't be you. And that's kind of the thing that we talked about going deeper. Like I have these brand voice finder sessions and you've seen them. They are incredibly personal and incredibly deep where you figure out what's really beneath the surface of your writing that is about your perspective. The reason why Claude, chat GPT, all that stuff, the reason why it can't sound like you is it just doesn't have your view. It doesn't understand who you are.
Laura Kendrick (18:19)
Right, right.
Justin Blackman (18:20)
And AI can, it's getting better at mimicking voice, but it sucks at knowing who you are. The way that I help people figure out their brand voice is to really figure out who the hell you are. And then we can actually document that and give that to AI and make it better. But there are so many people who I've helped with these, with these voice finder sessions. It was like, you know what? actually don't want to use another writer or anything anymore. I have something to say now and I know what it is. And it's, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (18:25)
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, that clarity just.
Justin Blackman (18:50)
And that's really what it is. I look, there are great branding experts. There are great copywriters who can help with that. And there are people who can do it authentic and make it authentic and get you, but figuring out the right pieces of you and the right parts of you to put into your brand, to get you into it. That's the thing that I honestly don't know that there's a simple way to do it. My sessions are deep. They're personal. People cry. Sometimes I cry. Like it's
Laura Kendrick (19:14)
Yeah.
Justin Blackman (19:19)
I don't like it.
Laura Kendrick (19:20)
Yeah, no, but it's true. It's true. But the interesting thing is that there's ⁓ somebody I know out there who talks about ⁓ making uncopyable copy. And the idea of that is really amazing, that if the copy on your website is so you and so distinctly your brand that somebody can't just come and rip it off because it just doesn't work for them. And in the past, that has been kind of aligned to good messaging and ⁓ personality. But I think at the heart of that, the foundation of that is actually the brand voice. To have uncopyable copy, your voice has to be so distinctive that it can't be copied by somebody else. think of the Marlon Brando that is so distinctive that even now after he's dead, people are walking around imitating him. Or what's the guy who talks super weird who ⁓my gosh, the star from the 80s, super tall, lanky, talks really slow. my God, I'm gonna have to put it in the notes under this.
Justin Blackman (20:24)
I'm not sure who we're talking about.
Laura Kendrick (20:27)
my gosh, I'm going have to look it up afterwards. Fair.
Justin Blackman (20:29)
Okay, but with those, there is an element there, because there are people who do great impressions. there we go, okay. He's still a star, yeah. So, all right, so Christopher Walken, the reason why he speaks like that is because his ancestors were, I don't remember where they, somewhere in Europe, maybe Russian, I'm not sure exactly sure, but they were learning English and didn't speak it properly.
20:37 Creating Uncopyable Copy and Distinctive Brand Identity
Laura Kendrick (20:37)
Christopher Walk-In, sorry, go ahead.
Justin Blackman (20:59)
which affected his inflections. And there's an element of that that he brings it to life. just, they put the accent on the wrong syllables and you know, like things like that. And now people can imitate that and you can do it short and you can do it quick. This is the same thing that happens every time there's a new Bugs Bunny or Kermit the Frog or like anytime there's a new character. Like you first hear it and be like, all right, that's it. And then over time you start to realize like, wait a minute, something's different here.
Laura Kendrick (21:01)
Interesting.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Justin Blackman (21:29)
So you can be copyable. I think any voice is copyable short term, but whoever you are, the things that you do, that's what we can figure out longterm that will truly make you uncopyable. And that takes time. It's not just a homepage. People can copy my homepage. They can copy your homepage, change a couple of words. We all think our stuff is a mess and a lot of them are, but like,
Laura Kendrick (21:37)
Yeah.
Don't, mine's a mess.
Justin Blackman (21:57)
Sometimes the the messes is okay. Sometimes that's you and I Think it's it's just a cycle of messes It always feels worse to us than it is for other people but they like at a certain point you like you know the first like year you have a website and you give the people the URL and Like you're like just I'm sorry. It's not good
Laura Kendrick (22:02)
For sure. Did we start that way?
Yeah
Justin Blackman (22:24)
And eventually you get to a point where like, you know what? It's actually okay. And you stop apologizing for it. A good copywriter will, will fast track that and get you a site that you stop apologizing for right away. That's kind of the goal, a site that you can feel good about. But as far as getting the brand voice, I think most copywriters can come in right away and do a really good impression of someone. It's the skilled copywriters that can do a long-term impression that can keep it going. And that takes.
Laura Kendrick (22:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Blackman (22:53)
true understanding of who you are as a person and as a brand, to understand what should be there, to understand those little nuances. And then sometimes if you work with a writer for long enough, you kind of become this intertwined personality and voice that works. I've seen a lot of brands do that.
Laura Kendrick (23:08)
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. We could like go on forever. Like truly. I'm thinking past calls we have actually done that. But tell the people where they can find you.
Justin Blackman (23:20)
⁓ So for the most part I'm at JustinBlackman.com and that's where I help people with Brand Voice. If you are a copywriter I also have a teaching arm and that's BrandVoiceAcademy.com.
Laura Kendrick (23:32)
solid and also Justin's emails are genuinely some of the ones I like. Even when my inbox gets backed up, it's like they just sit at the bottom until I have a minute and can read them all because they're that entertaining and like the whole thing about Christopher Walken, like that's the stuff, the goodness that comes out. It's like, I didn't know about that. Cool.
Justin Blackman (23:51)
There's a lot of random facts and bar trivia that are the catalysts for everything. There's lot of useless shit stuck in my brain and I like to share it.
Laura Kendrick (23:55)
Yes, but they're so good.
So good, love it. Well, thank you so much for being a part of this.
Justin Blackman (24:04)
That's my pleasure.
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Stacey Brass-Russell shows you how to reverse-engineer offers from outcomes, not modules—so your site stops listing “stuff” and starts moving buyers to yes.
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Stacey Brass-Russell is a transformational business coach, sought-after speaker, and host of the Passionate & Prosperous Podcast. She’s also the creator of Your Genius Edge™—her signature framework for helping coaches, creatives, and service-based entrepreneurs turn their brilliance into high-impact offers and sustainable income.
A Broadway veteran (twice!), longtime yoga teacher and NYC studio owner, and master-level teacher of transformation for over two decades, Stacey brings a rare blend of presence, performance, and practical strategy to everything she does. Her work is rooted in the belief that building a profitable business you love doesn’t require gimmicks, funnels, or trendy hacks—it takes you at the center of your business, leading with your genius and showing up in service with clarity and confidence.
Through her coaching, workshops, and signature live event Passionate & Prosperous LIVE!, Stacey helps clients identify their Genius Edge—their lived experience, body of work, and unique ability to create real transformation—and then teaches them how to translate it into magnetic offers, aligned visibility, and soul-driven sales strategy that actually converts.
She lives in New York City with her psychoanalyst husband Christopher and their three cats. When she’s not coaching or podcasting, you can probably find her baking sourdough, hosting one of her famous dinner parties, or sipping a cappuccino somewhere fabulous. -
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00:00 Introduction and Connection
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Welcome in Stacey. I am so glad you're here. I mean, there's just so much goodness that I know is going to come from this. There's so much we have in common and so much like that bleeds into our businesses that I'm already feeling this just amazing little magnetism that's starting to brew just starting this. I know.
Stacey Brass-Russell (00:04)
Me too!
We've already been giggling a lot. So
I think, yeah, it's a good sign.
Laura Kendrick (00:25)
So let's start, why don't you introduce yourself to the people who don't know who you are?
Stacey Brass-Russell (00:30)
Okay, well my name is Stacey Brass Russell and I am a business strategist and I really specialize in offer optimization and sales coaching really. I really help people figure out what they do, turn it into the thing that someone might buy and then I help them sell it.
Laura Kendrick (00:46)
I love that because so many of us struggle with that in so many ways. can't be honestly, I'm even right now, I'm sitting here thinking about a client just asked me to do something that's outside of my normal wheelhouse, but they're long-term clients. So, okay. And I'm sitting here thinking like, how the hell do I price that? Like, what is that? So I think we all face it in various capacities. So I love that this is your focus because it is a pain point for a lot of people for sure.
Stacey Brass-Russell (00:58)
Mm.
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I think so. think the pain point also is sometimes people, especially people that are really good at what they do or are what we call like the sort of the multi-passionate, like if you're really smart and you're good, you probably can do a lot of things. Like the fact that someone said to you, asked you to do something and you can do it, right? And I think a lot of people have a hard time figuring out how to actually talk about what they do or how to turn it into
like a tangible thing where they can be really clear with someone and say, this is what this is, or this is what I'm going to help you do, or this is what you're going to get out of it, you know? And so ⁓ the more talented, the more passionate, the more things you can do, the harder it is actually. Whereas you would think it was the opposite. You would think it was like, you have so many things you can sell, but I think that it becomes more difficult actually to just sort of like create things that someone else could understand really easily.
Laura Kendrick (01:54)
Yes.
Yes, and that is a problem everybody faces. I mean, honestly, even as a copywriter, sometimes it's funny. It happens when I'm writing my own copy, not other people's copy.
Stacey Brass-Russell (02:26)
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. We can do it all for other people. And then when it comes to ourselves, we're like, I don't know what I do. Like, I don't, no one gets me. I don't get me. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I know.
02:46 Understanding Offer Optimization
Laura Kendrick (02:46)
Yeah, and also falling into all the like bad traps of writing about the offer words. And I will sit back and go, wow, that positioning is such rubbish. And then just have to really kind of, I actually have a friend who's a copywriter who talks about like half the job of copywriters just staring at the ceiling going,
Stacey Brass-Russell (02:56)
Yeah. Yeah, mean the other day and I helped my clients with copy and messaging all the things and the other day I literally said to my client, so I was thinking about you when I was in the shower and the title for your workshop and then I was like, my God, Stacey, do not tell people that like all of your work happens in the shower. Like all of my down...
Laura Kendrick (03:25)
You were in the shower.
That's where the genius comes! No, yeah, no, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (03:29)
Right, so you're like staring at the ceiling and I'm like, I gotta get in the shower or the bath because I need to like open up my creative flow.
Laura Kendrick (03:37)
Yes, yes, that's true. Like it's just one of those places. Have you read the book, The Big Leap? He talks about in that book that there's an element, like there's something that he, like a mechanism he gives for kind of getting out of the muck, if you will, in the moment. And one of the things he says is like, you know, feel the things. And then he's like, but don't expect the real thought to come through of like what's actually connected here. But then don't be shocked if like,
Stacey Brass-Russell (03:44)
No, I haven't.
Laura Kendrick (04:03)
20 minutes from now or when you're walking around the block or you're doing something else, it's suddenly it's like, ⁓ that's what it was. It's like, that's all the body work. So you're just affirming in real life, all the things we all already know.
Stacey Brass-Russell (04:11)
Yes.
Yes, yes, for sure.
Laura Kendrick (04:18)
So let's talk about offers and kind of dialing that in because especially, I when we're talking about websites, let's be real, we're talking about websites that are, especially here in this setting, we're talking about websites that are not just a digital business card. We're actually trying to get them to do work behind the scenes so that they're converting, they're doing the job so that you could actually have that business, ideally, that you do wake up.
in the middle of the night or not ideally in the morning and find it in the middle of the night.
Stacey Brass-Russell (04:50)
Right, we don't want everyone to be going through menopause and waking up in the middle of the night. like, you know, okay.
Laura Kendrick (04:59)
ground back into ⁓ healthy sleep.
Stacey Brass-Russell (05:02)
Right?
You sleep through the night, but then you wake up to this wonderful, this wonderful surprise of, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (05:07)
Yes. And that's ideally they're not surprises
anymore. And a huge piece of that has to do with your offers.
Stacey Brass-Russell (05:15)
Yeah, for sure.
05:16 Crafting Effective Offers
We want when someone comes to our website, right? They're not seeing our offer first thing. They're not like literally getting to the website and they're not the first thing they're not seeing is like the how to work with me, right? They're they're they're getting to the website. But what I what I always tell people about your offer is the best way to think of or craft an offer is to reverse engineer your offer from ultimately. What is the outcome?
Laura Kendrick (05:26)
Right.
Stacey Brass-Russell (05:43)
that you are helping your client get? What is the ultimate thing that the offer is going to be helping them? And I like to say be, do or have. Okay, and so when somebody gets to your website, they should actually already know that. It doesn't mean that they're looking at your offer, but they should already know when they get to your website, even before they see the offer, that you are someone who either helps them solve whatever problem that they're having or,
Laura Kendrick (05:53)
Mmm.
Stacey Brass-Russell (06:12)
that you help them get certain outcomes that they want. And then your offer should actually be the way they're gonna get those outcomes, right? And so when I think of crafting an offer, always think, what do you really, I always say like, what do you really do? Like, what do you really get paid for? What are people actually paying you for? Because I think people also get very, ⁓ they get very caught up in these days now that we know that we can like,
there's all these things we need to do to market. Somebody recently said to me, maybe I need a private podcast. And I was like, okay, well, what do you need a private podcast for? How's it gonna lead to what people are paying you for, right? So I always say, what are people paying you for? And what people are paying you for is the result of your offer. It's the outcome of your offer. Everything should be reverse engineered from that. And so then when you really think about who your ideal clients are and what they want and how you do it,
Laura Kendrick (06:50)
Right.
Stacey Brass-Russell (07:10)
then the crafting of your offer is always going to be what is the journey or the transformation that you're gonna need to help your client experience to get to the outcome. Now I also, Laura, I work personally in my business with service-based providers that are a lot of coaches and a lot of course creators, program leaders, experts that are really helping people to get outcomes. So I always look through that lens where the people that we're helping,
Laura Kendrick (07:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (07:40)
They need to experience some sort of transformational journey to get to where they wanna go, right? And so that is how you start to craft an offer is what do they ultimately want? What is the journey? That is the transformation. That's the process. That's your genius. That's your unique thing that you have put together where you can say to someone, my God, I do help with those outcomes and this is how I help with them.
08:09 The Importance of Outcomes
And that's the like the genius juicy part. And then, then, then the final part is, and here's what we're gonna need to do to do all that. And it's almost like the logistics are sort of like the, they're sort of like the bothersome kind of like, ⁓ all right. And then we got to talk about like, you know, we're not gonna just meet in like the universe like spontaneously because, you know, we're meant for each other. So we have to set that we're gonna meet.
Laura Kendrick (08:12)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Stacey Brass-Russell (08:37)
and we have these many sessions or there's this many things and this is how I do they all I'm going to support you with this videos or these templates or these whatever right but I think that a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that that's actually what their offer is and they think that the offer is like the thing of like how many sessions and how many modules and how many how much
Laura Kendrick (08:52)
Yes. Yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (09:01)
you know, how many times can you emergency text me? And I'm always like, my God, like that's like not how to sell an offer, you know? Yeah. So, so I think the offer creation really always needs to start with like, with the probably what's the hardest thing, which is like, how can you really put into very relatable language and, create really tangible outcomes that you're helping your people to get?
Laura Kendrick (09:07)
Right. Yes. Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (09:29)
And I think that then that really forces you to know that you need a niche and you know, not everybody likes niche.
Laura Kendrick (09:33)
Yeah.
Yeah. I love though that you're talking about the deliverables and those little pieces and the nitty gritty because in reality, and we are talking about this in other elements of this summit as well, what sells is the emotion. So what gets people there, but the little details of how long are the calls and the access.
Stacey Brass-Russell (09:55)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (10:01)
Those are the little things, you have to mention them because that's the thing that is going to go when the person is sitting there with their credit card out and they're just like, wait, I just need to make sure that this is like, I'm getting the things that I want, but that's not what's really making the sale. Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (10:04)
yeah!
No, yeah, no, no, you need those things and that's what makes people
feel like you're the real, that's what makes people feel like you have a real business, that you're professional, that you're gonna show up for them is when you're very clear on your deliverables and when you're like, this is what it is. We meet for six months, we have a session this, people need to feel that you are.
Laura Kendrick (10:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (10:35)
not going to take their money and run and then find out that all they're going to have are like a couple of videos to watch and that you're like, yeah, vox for me once in a while, right? Like that's not helpful. ⁓ wait a minute. I'm so sorry, Laura. I didn't mean to call you out. But I do think that sometimes people really don't
Laura Kendrick (10:46)
Wait, that's not how I'm supposed to run my business. Whoops. No.
Stacey Brass-Russell (10:59)
don't realize that at the end of the day, that's actually not what a program is. Like a program is not a number of weeks and a number of sessions and a number of modules and a number of templates and a number of videos and a number of calls and whatever, because like then, and this is like something that I talk about all the time, then you're also really not ever going to be able to have like control over your pricing. Because if people think that they're paying for stuff,
11:03 Navigating the Trust Recession
Laura Kendrick (11:03)
Mm-hmm.
Great.
Stacey Brass-Russell (11:28)
or for time, exchanging time for money, then you're putting yourself in a hole. And there's a cap on what people will pay if you convey the value to them of your offer as how much stuff is in it. But if what you're conveying to people are the outcomes that they really want, which hopefully are worth a lot to them. And if you're basically saying, I...
Laura Kendrick (11:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (11:56)
I have a way of helping you to get what you want. And that way is that I've been doing this for a long time or I've really perfected this method or I've created a proven system or framework or I know people like you so well because it's who I am, whatever it is that you get to say to someone about why you are the person and that the offer that you're offering them is that you've created the method for them to get the outcome.
Laura Kendrick (12:15)
you
Stacey Brass-Russell (12:25)
and you're saying to them, this is what's on the other side, then to be honest with you, if you said to them, oh, and I know that the best way to get you that is just to work with me for 24 hours straight, and then you never have to talk to me again, then someone will go like, okay, great, then let's do that. Or if you say, I know the best way to get you that is like we worked together for a year and we talked twice a month, then someone will say, okay, great. So the logistics at the end of the day really should be based on
what you think it's gonna take to get your client that outcome that they want. And that's when you need to know your market, right? Like I know that there are people that I work with that are established business owners, let's say that want my help with their launch webinar. That's like a thing I'm an expert in, right? Is helping people create high converting launches, all right? Like the content. ⁓ And some of those people, they don't...
Laura Kendrick (12:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (13:19)
They're not like, okay, great. I want to coach with you for six months to get that outcome. They're like, I want to do a VIP day. Like, can we bang that out in a VIP day? That's the container, right? That's the logistics. And I can help people get that outcome in that amount of time. But a different level of business owner who comes to me, who wants to create X, Y, and Z, they're not going to be able to do that in a VIP day. And I'm not going to offer that to them. And the logistics of the offer are going to have to be different because that person needs a different kind of support.
Laura Kendrick (13:49)
I love that. I love the just the intentional, generous and customized level of support that you're talking about that is aimed at individual people. One of the things that I have been hyper focused on because I've seen it in my own clients and myself too, is there are certain elements that have to do with like copy and strategy that I've seen when they all come together and they're all done really well and they're all in place.
14:18 Creating Sustainable Offers
Holy bananas, the amount of clarity that comes. That it's like these things of what should the offer be? What is the pricing? It's so crystal clear because you know exactly who it is who's at the other end of that call. You know who it's aimed at and you know what benefits you're bringing. You know everything about it you're so certain and it's amazing. But I love how you opened up the space for having it be slightly different if you do work with
Stacey Brass-Russell (14:30)
Exactly.
Laura Kendrick (14:47)
varying people, that you can create different containers and pricing to meet people where they are. But at the end of the day, it's not just about the container.
Stacey Brass-Russell (14:58)
Right, and I don't think that like it's good to have like a million offers, you know, but I do think that when you really know what you do, because what you do is the offer, right? And when you really know what you do and if what you do, this isn't for everyone, like some of my clients that are my newbies, right? That are coaches that are starting businesses.
Laura Kendrick (15:02)
Sure, sure.
Stacey Brass-Russell (15:19)
I mean, they're not allowed to have more than one offer. I'm like, no, no, we have to have one offer. We have to sell this offer. You have to make money doing this before we think of anything else. So there's that. once somebody is established and it feels like, ⁓ now we can sort of add in something else or start to create what we like to call an offer suite, right?
Laura Kendrick (15:22)
Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Stacey Brass-Russell (15:48)
So there's that. But then if you're someone like me who I really know what I do, and it just so happens that I can, that there are varying levels or phases or business, you know, business phases that what I do applies, but someone who's more advanced in their business needs can get it faster, right? Because they're already more established and they know more about their business already too, you know, and
Laura Kendrick (16:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (16:17)
We get better and better and better at knowing how to talk about what we do as we do it. somebody who's in their first year or first two years of their business, they could be great at what they do and they're not as good at talking about it as someone who's been doing it for like three years or five years.
Laura Kendrick (16:23)
Yeah.
Right, right, right. And that's a really important differentiation too. And I appreciate that so much. So something that is coming, that kind of is spinning through my head that you said was, ⁓ my gosh, and I'm like gonna miss the thread too, which is amazing. But it was going back towards what we were talking about actually before we hit record a little bit was about the trust recession that people are talking about.
17:03 Building Relationships and Community
Stacey Brass-Russell (17:03)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (17:03)
and looping the offer into that. And I can't remember what triggered that again and what you just said, but.
Stacey Brass-Russell (17:07)
Yeah, yeah.
So what I was talking about, and I think this might be it, what I was talking about with everybody talking about the trust recession and the feeling that people are not buying the way they used to or they're not investing in the same, it's, okay, let's just say it feels harder to sell your offers. Okay, so we were talking about that. And what I said, I think that you might be thinking of, was I said, what people are telling you to do,
Laura Kendrick (17:24)
Yes. Yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (17:37)
is to change your offer to like lower the price or to make it smaller or to do these sort of like trust, they call it trust building offers or like to create some sort of like a mini offer that somebody could get a taste of working with you instead of just going with your high ticket offers, like all these things that are happening for people with this trust recession. I, you know, what I think is,
Laura Kendrick (17:39)
Yes.
You
Stacey Brass-Russell (18:04)
I don't know that it really serves you or your clients to create an offer that just so that you have something cheaper and with a lower commitment level, if it's not gonna get your clients the outcomes that they really want. Like if you know that in order to get your ideal client a certain outcome, if you know well enough because you've been doing this and you know who they are and whatever that.
Laura Kendrick (18:13)
Mm-hmm.
Stacey Brass-Russell (18:30)
that it really is gonna take X amount of time and X amount of whatever for them to get that outcome, but you feel like you have to like dumb your offer down or lower the price or give them less one-on-one or whatever you're doing to like make your offer less expensive. Usually it's remove access, remove like human stuff. That's the first thing we do to like lower the price, right? And if you don't think that your clients,
Laura Kendrick (18:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (18:59)
are gonna be best served that way, don't do it. Instead, get even more clear on your offer because, and this is what we were talking about, I believe, and no one has to believe me, because I'm just Stacey Brass Russell in New York City being like, being over here, know, being like a big ex Broadway performer. ⁓ I believe that there's always gonna be a market for what you do if you know what you do and you know.
Laura Kendrick (19:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (19:26)
like what your genius is and you know how great you are at what you do, there's always gonna be a market for it. It may just feel a little bit more, you may have to do more work to get people to like, to get in, I call it to get enrolled, right? So it just may take a little longer. You may have to show up more, you may have to build those relationships. It may take longer for somebody to go through.
Laura Kendrick (19:41)
Yeah.
Hmm? ⁓
Stacey Brass-Russell (19:52)
a buying cycle with you, may just be that you have to invest more in building those relationships and moving those people over the finish line, but I believe they're there and I believe that they'll still buy from you. And I think that if you get scared and you get all weird in this time and you decide to have a membership for $97 a month, but you actually only have like 300 followers on Instagram and
Laura Kendrick (19:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
clinical term.
20:04 Final Thoughts and Resources
Stacey Brass-Russell (20:21)
you know, and an email list with hardly anyone on it, then who's like, so then what? So then you'll have three people in your membership and you'll be making $300 a month. And like, how's that gonna go? Like, you know, so I think that like people don't always think about offer creation, taking into consideration all the things about their business and they get scared or they see what other people are doing and they go, ⁓ I'll create.
Laura Kendrick (20:33)
Yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (20:49)
I'll create a membership. I'll create a low offer because it feels hard to sell right now. It feels like I'm not getting as many one-on-one clients paying me a couple of thousand dollars. I'll do a membership. But then they haven't really thought about like, are you gonna get a membership going if you don't really have the, and you need an audience.
Laura Kendrick (21:04)
It's a lot of work.
Yeah. And it's, you need an audience. The numbers on that, like that's a numbers game, a wholehearted numbers game. Yes. And it is also a like ongoing energy. is it, I mean, there's, there's positives to being a member, doing a membership, but if you are currently in high ticket stuff and you just want to transition over, that is a big transition and you need to do that intentionally for sure.
Stacey Brass-Russell (21:13)
Total volume numbers game.
Totally, totally, totally.
And you have to, like when you look at people who are like say, I'm killing it with a membership, you also have to like know like, are they actually telling you how much money they're spending on ads to generate leads? Cause like, if you're not.
Laura Kendrick (21:41)
Mm.
Stacey Brass-Russell (21:43)
if that's not where you are in your business or where you don't wanna be. Like, I don't wanna be there in my business. I have a very, very successful, robust business and I have no interest in spending $5,000 a month on ads. Like, I'm very, very particular with like what I run ads for and when I do it. And I do it in a way that serves me and my business. But, you know, I think a lot of times, again, when people create offers, they're not always thinking about how are you gonna get the people to this offer?
Laura Kendrick (21:46)
Right.
Stacey Brass-Russell (22:12)
Like who is this offer for? And also again, with the membership, as you said, is this you doing the work, doing work that like is what lights you up? Or have you created this like low ticket membership that is going to feel like a slog and you're going to feel like every week you're going to be like, I can't believe I committed to this. And then like, what are, then is this really why you started your business or did you start your business because there's work that does light you up?
Laura Kendrick (22:23)
rates.
Great.
Yes.
Stacey Brass-Russell (22:42)
and that you feel like you're so good at, and don't you just want that? Like, don't you just want to make money that way? I mean, I do.
Laura Kendrick (22:46)
Yeah. I love,
I love that all the people who I know personally, who talk about selling a lot, all of them stand on this particular soapbox and it's everyone else whose nervous systems are dysregulated. Like for instance, I actually had a, because I had a sales coach who I desperately love for a good long time and I had an offer coming out.
in this past year that was low ticket. was on purpose. Like it was meant to be following something. But yeah, no. But the funny... Yeah, it was. But it was supposed to be, it was the right setting, it was what it was supposed to be. But interestingly, it was somebody else's fear who actually lives in the membership world, who spouted all of this stuff at me for like on a just kind of casual chat we were having.
Stacey Brass-Russell (23:18)
I'm not trying to shame anybody for their low ticket offer. Now you're like, okay, Stacey, but it was low ticket.
Laura Kendrick (23:45)
implanted it in me and then I ended up dropping the price because I was so scared of it and I'm like, shit. And in the aftermath had that moment of like, that was all somebody else's crap that I just carried. Like I walked in with such confidence and like, oh, I'm doing this thing. I'm like, I'm charging this amount. And she was like, it's really hard to sell $47 offers. I'm like, wait a second. We have different audiences. We have different offers. yeah.
Stacey Brass-Russell (23:49)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Exactly, exactly. You have to know your whole eco, like you can't create offers in a vacuum. So when you decide, and you know, this is an interesting thing that comes up with my clients that when they want to move, when they are getting one on one clients, and they want to start a group program.
Right. And I always say, I'm like, I'm all for group programs. I love group programs. I am a group program queen. And I love I think community is so like amazing. And and I always see my clients. Let's just remember that getting eight or 10 or more people to say yes to an offer at once is very different than getting one one on one client at a time. And we I just want you to like
Laura Kendrick (24:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Stacey Brass-Russell (24:54)
make sure that when you widen the lens, I call it, and you look at what's going on in your business, is it gonna feel like finding those eight to 10 people? I'm not saying it has to be easy peasy, but is it gonna feel like you can imagine where they're gonna come from? Because if you can't imagine that, let's not make that offer.
Laura Kendrick (25:15)
Yeah. ⁓ I love that. I love that. That's such good advice. That's like mic drop advice right there.
I mean, we could talk for hours, honestly, just hours and hours, but will you tell the people where they can find you?
Stacey Brass-Russell (25:23)
Yep.
Oh yes. Well, first I always love to direct people to my podcast because podcasting is a labor of love and I love mine. It's called Passionate and Prosperous. So that's easy to find on all the platforms. And then I'm on all the places. You know, I'm on the Instagram and Facebook and I've got a website, staceybrassrussle.com. And yeah, and I do lots of stuff. you know, I do lots of free stuff, you know, so hang around me, but listen to my podcast for sure.
Laura Kendrick (25:35)
It is.
Well, I'm hanging around you, so I love it. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Stacey, for being part of this. This conversation has been amazing, and it fits in so beautifully. And I'm so glad you brought your energy and your amazing insightfulness to this summit. It has been amazing.
Stacey Brass-Russell (26:01)
⁓ thank you.
Thank you so much, Laura. Thank you. And you know I told you, I was like for your last one, I was like, wait a minute, I need to be on her summit next time. So thank you for having me.
Laura Kendrick (26:28)
Thank you for being here.
SEO That Converts (Not Just… Exists).
Laura Jawad connects the dots between rankings, UX, and trust signals—so your traffic actually clicks, opts in, and buys.
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As an SEO strategist for female service providers and female-founded small businesses, Laura Jawad helps entrepreneurs attract more clients through the power of their websites.
Laura built two successful businesses through SEO, demonstrating first-hand the transformative power of well-executed SEO in competitive markets. Armed with a PhD and a deep passion for helping women-owned businesses thrive, Laura is the go-to expert if you’re ready to make your website the hardest-working member of your marketing team. -
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00:00 Introduction to Holistic Marketing
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Okay, so Laura, not only am I excited that you're here, but I am really excited for what you're about to talk about because this conversation is so important. It's not talked about enough. And so I'm just like all the things are happening. So let's begin with you sharing a little bit about yourself to all the people who don't know who you are, but really should.
00:25 Understanding SEO and Conversions
Laura (00:25)
Absolutely, and thank you so much for the invitation to be here, Laura. You have the best name. ⁓ So I am an SEO strategist for female service providers, female founded businesses, and I work with folks who want to fill their client rosters, to grow their audience without relying on social media.
Laura Kendrick (00:31)
I know, right?
Mm. Speak them right to my heart. I love that. And I think there's an interesting connection. So I was just talking to Michelle Mazur yesterday doing her episode for this, and I kept saying I think, and I need to stop saying I think. It's like my own little buffer here. I know there is a disconnection because people know the importance of SEO, but they're not making the connection between SEO and conversions. They're sometimes sitting back and realizing it is a long game, and they're
dicking it out, but there's, it's almost in some people's minds, and sometimes mine too, I think of it as like a visibility move, a way to get found, but then also how do we link that to the conversions? And that's the element that you talk about that is just makes all the like tingles go off in my brain.
Laura (01:37)
Yeah, SEO is one part getting people to your website, but that doesn't matter if they're not converting into subscribers, leads or clients, right? And so if the end game of SEO is making money, then conversions needs to be a part of that. And the interesting thing is that discoverability, let's say credibility and conversions, like they're all interconnected, right? And not just because
Laura Kendrick (01:46)
For sure.
Mm-hmm.
Laura (02:05)
of the way they work together in like a marketing funnel, but because Google pays attention to what people do on your website, right? They're paying attention to how long they stick around, to whether or not they're scrolling, to whether or not they're hovering over things, and to whether or not they're clicking, right? A conversion can be all kinds of things, right? A conversion can be what a conversion is to you, but let's call it a click.
Laura Kendrick (02:13)
Yes, yes they do.
Mm-hmm.
Laura (02:34)
If people aren't clicking on your website, Google's noticing that. And that's a signal that your content is not helpful or it's somehow not meeting the intent of the search that sent them there. And that is going to impact future searches. So conversion is important for your bottom line, but it's also actually really important for your discoverability. Those two things work together hand in hand.
Laura Kendrick (02:57)
Yeah.
The whole kind of myth of the algorithm, I've got to stop myself again. The people, I feel like has become my, the people who are fighting the algorithms of social media have turned algorithms into this like four letter word almost, like this beast you have to battle. But when it comes to SEO in particular, I.
I choose not to see it as that, as a beast you have to battle. It's something that's really trying to work with you and get the right people to your website. And also when you're the one searching, get you to the right website. So I choose to always look at it through that more positive filter. But I love this idea of really thinking about it with that conversion lens as well.
Can you talk about that connection between discoverability and conversion? can we pivot it a little bit to conversion as being sales? How do you see, I get as SEO that a conversion could be a different beast depending on what the intent is. But if we're looking at trying to make the website convert into clients to sales, how do you see that connection happening? Where does SEO play in that for you?
04:18 The Connection Between Discoverability and Credibility
Laura (04:18)
So I think the link between SEO as like a traffic source and then conversions is that credibility piece that I dropped in earlier, right? And it's how does your website convey trust, inspire confidence, compel that conversion. And there's a lot to that, right? There's a copywriting and messaging element. There is an element of putting on display the things that...
Laura Kendrick (04:26)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Laura (04:47)
make you an expert, right? Like what are your credibility markers and putting those on display, putting your reviews up there. So there's an element of design, there's an element of copywriting. ⁓ All of these things take that traffic and turn them into customers.
Laura Kendrick (04:48)
Yeah.
love that. And I love that, I mean, it's really tying in, I mean, we call this holistic, right? It's tying all the bits and pieces together. And it's taking this one element that oftentimes people have as like a checklist item when they're building a page or when they're, you know, as their marketing of that, like, yeah, I gotta get an SEO blog out this week. And we're kind of meeting this silent, quiet piece that's burning behind the scenes.
Laura (05:10)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (05:31)
but it really does tie into the whole picture.
Laura (05:34)
Yeah, and like when I'm doing an SEO audit, I'm not just looking at like, I don't know, SEO titles and page speeds. Like I'm looking at navigation. I'm looking at how easy is it for people to find the main content of the page? How clear is the messaging, right? Like what do the buttons say, right? So we're looking at all of those pieces that take the traffic, like take people from
when they land on the website all the way through that conversion. And so I guess that doesn't speak, you you asked specifically about sales and I'm probably not the expert on, you know, necessarily which conversion, like I wanna see people get conversions, but for me, I don't care if it's an email sign up or if it is a contact form or if it's a ⁓ purchase.
Laura Kendrick (06:17)
Yeah.
Laura (06:30)
I want to see people taking action on these pages because it's good for my clients and it's good for them in terms of reinforcing their discoverability.
Laura Kendrick (06:33)
Yes.
Yeah, and you're actually speaking to what is at the core of the theme of this entire summit, which is having a website that has UX. Like, we're looking through a UX lens, a user experience lens, and you're seeing those exact same things, where it's, how is the path through? Is it clear? Can people find their way where they need to find their way? And when you're even talking about your version of conversions, which
As a conversion copywriter, we talk like our version of conversions is always the credit card getting plugged down, right? But when we're talking about UX, it's the same thing, where each page has an intent. There's an action that you want people to take, and it can be very different from page to page. And though at the very end of the path, yes, we would love the credit card to be plugged down or the application to get on a sales call, which at the end of that is still the credit card being plugged down with the right person.
there is still the path that needs to go to get there. And no, it is not the immediate. You land on the home page or the first blog page that came up in the search and the first ask is, give me your credit card. That's just not how people buy. But yeah, you are. I mean, you're talking in UX terms, which I adore.
Laura (07:52)
Mm-hmm.
I mean, like to say that SEO is like the bow we tie on all of our marketing activities. It's hard for me to talk about SEO in isolation from almost anything else because it is so tightly coupled to your messaging, to the user experience, to the sales. Like it's so tightly coupled to so many other aspects.
And now too brand reputation is so important to SEO that you can't talk about SEO without talking about PR. So truly it's just like this bow you tie on everything else. brings it all home.
Laura Kendrick (08:24)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
08:37 The Role of PR in SEO
Yeah, that's an interesting connection between PR. Can you dive a little bit more into that? I think I know what you're getting at there, but I'm curious where, like, especially when you use the word PR of like, tell.
Laura (08:50)
Yeah, okay, so I said that, you know, SEO has this sort of virtuous cycle with ⁓ conversions and credibility, right? But if we just like take a step back and say, like, what are the foundations of SEO or like, what are the pillars? It's keywords and content or the context that is on your website. It's the user experience and user engagement signals, which we've kind of talked about. There's technical foundations, which is the shit no one likes to talk about.
⁓ And then there's brand reputation. And if you've been like around SEO for even a hot second, you've probably heard of backlinks. Okay, now that's under the umbrella of brand reputation. And what this means is that, and the reason I'm explaining these as pillars, because all these pillars work together as a virtuous cycle, right? And so just like, you know, great conversion signals are going to ultimately feed forward into your discoverability. So is your brand reputation. So that's my...
Laura Kendrick (09:28)
Yeah. Yes.
Laura (09:49)
That's where my brain went. ⁓ essentially, know, use SEO really used to just be about the website and Google really judged your website on the merit of what was on the page. But now, yes, but now Google is they're looking at what you're doing off of your website. And increasingly, your search placement is a reward for all the other activities you're doing online. So they're looking at your entire online footprint.
Laura Kendrick (10:02)
keyword stuffing days, right? Yeah.
Mmm.
Laura (10:19)
Where are you active on socials? Do you have reviews? Are people talking about you? Are you guesting on podcasts? What else are you doing? Because there's so much noise now, AI. We don't even have to go into it. I think everyone knows. And Google's index literally can't hold it all. And so it's trying to figure out who are the real experts who have earned their expertise through their experience.
Laura Kendrick (10:32)
Yeah.
Laura (10:48)
and deserve to teach the stuff they're teaching or offer the stuff they're offering. And part of the way they figure out like who are the real people and the real experts is by looking at the footprint, the reputation, right? Because they're, know, Google's algorithm is a robot. So how does it evaluate trust? Like it looks to see how other people feel about you or other people vouching for you. And so that is a huge, huge signal.
Laura Kendrick (11:15)
Yeah, yeah, that's, it's such a good point. Yes, yes, yeah, and it's.
Laura (11:17)
Does that answer the question? Like, does that explain it? Okay. Yeah, so
PR is obviously a huge part of that, right? Because that's how you're actively expanding that footprint and showing up on these other platforms.
Laura Kendrick (11:30)
Which is funny, because years ago when I learned the strategies of SEO blogging and talking about backlinks and stuff, and I never connected it at that time to PR. It makes, now I do, but I guess I hadn't actually put it through that lens, because there's certainly moments where I'm thinking about what I do want this podcast to link to my page. And it's not beneficial to have somebody drop your Instagram
or LinkedIn link as the like where to find you on a like on a bio thing. You really want it to go to your website. And I do understand that sentiment, but I hadn't thought of this. Like I hadn't really, they were kind of standing right next to each other, but hadn't actually Velcroed together.
Laura (12:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, and if you consider like back in the early days, like a backlink could come from anywhere. And that's why like, you know, for folks who aren't in the know, like in the early days of SEO, you could just buy batches of backlinks from like all these sketchy websites and they would count, right? And then Google did algorithm updates that made it so those no longer count and they looked like spam and your website would get dinged if you had bought backlinks.
But essentially it didn't matter where the link came from, as long as someone was pointing at your website. Now it matters. The context matters. So you want links from authoritative, relevant websites. So for me, getting a link from my cousin's knitting blog is not going to help me. But I did ⁓ a guest post on Emily Reagan's blog.
Laura Kendrick (13:03)
Yeah.
Laura (13:11)
that's absolutely gonna help me, right? It's relevant, her website's authoritative, a ⁓ guest blog post shows its authority, right? It shows she trusts me, that's a great link. And that goes for any of these podcasts guesting as well. So, know, on the same vein as like, you know, not asking your cousin for a link from their knitting blog unless you're a knitting entrepreneur. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (13:13)
Mm-hmm.
Laura (13:40)
when you're pitching podcasts, they should be relevant. There's lots of like, I don't know, storytelling blah or podcasts. There's lots of ways to get on a podcast that's not relevant to what you do and who you serve. And it's not that if you get on one or two of those, it's gonna like blow up your online reputation, but as part of your PR, like your active outreach, you should be targeting.
Laura Kendrick (13:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura (14:03)
platforms that are relevant and authoritative, right?
Laura Kendrick (14:07)
Yeah,
I love that because we talked about in the last season, we talked about not having visibility just for visibility's sake. And this is a different filter to be, it's the same message. That's why it's so beautiful, thinking about this in this grand way and how you're saying you can't untie SEO from marketing. I don't think you can untie any aspect of it because it all works so beautifully together.
But thinking about that of where it matters for not only is your audience there and for direct conversions and growing your own audience and building it with the right people, but also helping even more people find you by being connected through these links and being on the right space. And I love that. And it's something that's been coming to my mind personally because the more visible you get, the more crappy pitches you get from people who are like.
I got pitched from somebody on LinkedIn that was like, you want to be a part of a YouTube something rather? And it's like a huge number of people watch it. And when I asked them what your niche, they just couldn't answer it in a way that was like, yeah, no. You're just running ads and this is not going to help me in any real tangible way. It's just visibility for visibility's sake. It's me giving up an hour for probably nothing. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Laura (15:23)
Yeah. It's a vanity metric. It's a vanity link.
Laura Kendrick (15:30)
And probably not even a good one. I don't even know that that's like a proper, it would be like, I feel like a vanity link for me is like, I don't know, getting featured in Vogue. It's like, it has nothing to do with anything. Like, did I make it to some like fashion show or something? Which I didn't, not even that person. But you know what I mean? It's like being photographed somewhere and they're like, here's Laura. And it's like, that doesn't mean anything for my business. Might be cool, but it doesn't mean anything for my business. But being featured in...
something that has to do with marketing or as you said, like Emily's platform or somebody else's platform that actually gives that authority outside of like, I don't know, maybe I'm dressed better that day and landed some good friend who took me someplace cool. For sure. Something I want to like touch on a little bit and because if this isn't on people's minds, I feel like it should be. And if it's
Laura (16:11)
Mm-hmm.
16:23 Navigating AI's Impact on SEO
Laura Kendrick (16:23)is on their minds, it's going to be a burning question. And that's AI, because AI is on everybody's minds. getting into, like, we're seeing these conversations, we're seeing these articles start to pop up that are talking about, you know, the Google search engine is starting to die. And Google's fighting this fight. AI is ⁓ starting to show links to people. They're starting to give that credibility factor. So how does that factor in when you're talking about SEO?
Laura (16:52)
⁓ Well, you know, obviously I'm biased, I'll own that, but I think that like traditional SEO still has a place for a number of reasons, like not the least of which is that people still Google a lot of stuff. So, you know, yes, chat GPT ⁓ is taking some of the market share from search. ⁓ Social media are becoming search engines.
Laura Kendrick (17:08)
Yeah, they do.
Laura (17:21)
But when you break it down, Google is still offering the lion's share of search results. So people are still there, right? And if you want to show up there, you need to be there. And obviously, Google Search is evolving, right? We've got AI overviews now that are precluding some of those top results. And that can be very annoying for the consumer and for the creator.
If your content isn't optimized and structured for search in general, it's not going to show up in the AI overviews either. So the things that you do for traditional SEO are still things that are going to get you featured in the AI search results. You know, beyond that, I would say your website is still the one place you own.
Laura Kendrick (18:07)
Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Laura (18:13)
It's still the one place on the internet where you 100 % get to control the messaging. You get to control how you are perceived. And like you were talking earlier, SEO supports everything else. When you optimize for SEO, you're reinforcing what people hear when you speak on a website. You are backing up your referrals when someone Googles your name. You're giving your newsletter
Laura Kendrick (18:24)
Mm-hmm.
Laura (18:41)
readers a place to go and consume more of your content. ⁓ It does so much for you. Again, it's that bow you tie on everything else. so I think more broadly than just how much traffic am I getting when I think about what is my website doing for me.
Laura Kendrick (18:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that. So good. Okay. So as we all lean into our SEO and need to like tighten it up and do all the things you got to share, how can people find you?
Laura (19:08)
Yeah, well, obviously my website friend. ⁓ So my website is my main platform and that is laurajewadmarketing.com. If you Google me, there's also a laurajewad.com, but you want laurajewadmarketing.com. And I also am offering listeners ⁓ what I call the SEO Kickstart Kit, which is a collection of five step-by-step checklists that help you set up your website to attract leads.
Laura Kendrick (19:12)
Duh.
Laura (19:37)
on autopilot. And so it takes you from foundations through brand reputation and content, ⁓ local SEO. It'll kind of meet you where you're at and you can use the pieces that you need. And you can grab that at laurajewidemarketing.com forward slash holistic hyphen marketing hyphen summit.
Laura Kendrick (19:57)
we'll link to it too, of course. Yes, yes. Well, thank you so much, Laura, for adding this. It's such an integral piece of the website that people either get overwhelmed by or possibly even bored by. But they shouldn't, because it is a really interesting and powerful piece of the marketing puzzle.
Laura (19:59)
Yes, of course.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's the linchpin of your digital presence, of your online presence. so as ⁓ an online business owner, I think it is one of the most important marketing assets that you have.
Laura Kendrick (20:36)
Yeah, I think you could even draw it to it's a linchpin of your visibility, which is something everybody's talking about. this is an integral part of that, for sure. Well, thank you so much.
Laura (20:42)
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Laura.
The Unholy Trinity of Boring (Begone).
With Michelle, trade clichés, jargon, and word salad for a sharp POV and problem-first copy that converts the right people.
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00:00 Introduction to Positioning and Messaging
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
⁓ welcome Michelle. I could not be more excited that you are a part of this summit. You are one of my favorite people to nerd out with. So yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (00:10)
Aww.
Thank you for having me, I'm super excited to chat with you.
Laura Kendrick (00:16)
my gosh, this is gonna be so fun. Let's start with you telling all the people who don't know who you are, but really, really need to know who you are because you're awesome. Tell them about you.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (00:29)
Yeah, so I'm Dr. Michelle Mazur. I am a positioning and messaging strategist who makes marketing suck less. I work with solo established business owners who are experts in their field and they kind of suck at marketing because their positioning and messaging just isn't quite where it needs to be to make marketing work. Plus they've been following a lot of like out.
dated playbooks and playbooks meant for creators and influencers and that crap does not work for the solo business owner. So that's what I'm there. help, I do this work inside the expert up club, which is my community to help experts do less marketing and see better results.
Laura Kendrick (00:59)
Mm-hmm.
So basically what that boils down to is you and I are about to hop up on our soap boxes and just cheer each other on real quick.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (01:25)
Okay, sounds good. Yay.
Laura Kendrick (01:27)
Let's do it.
Let's actually talk about positioning. this is, I mean, the people who are listening to this largely know what they're are, like they've been in this space. They're not new to this. And nor am I, nor are you. there is a, like positioning is this enigma of a thing. It does come up, people talk about it, but also just, ugh. So let's do that.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (01:53)
Yes. Well, it's funny. ⁓ I teach a workshop called Nail Your Message and I used to teach a module on positioning. And the first time I ever taught it, asked, I just assumed people would know what it was. And I asked the question, was like, who knows what positioning is? And they all looked at me like I had 27 heads. And I'm like, okay, so you don't know what positioning is. That is fine. So there is a book called Positioning.
Laura Kendrick (02:13)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (02:22)
Do not read it. It is not very mind blowing, but it is the seminal book by Al Reese Jack Trout and Philip Kotler and basically how they think about positioning. It's not what you're doing to your product to make your product or your offer different, but it's what you're doing to the mind of your clients and how you're getting them to think about your product.
02:45 Understanding Positioning: The Key to Marketing Success
Laura Kendrick (02:45)
Mmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (02:51)
So the way that I like to think about this is what is it that makes your offer different from all the other, like you're a copywriter, like what makes you different from all the other copywriters? What is going to make you?
Laura Kendrick (03:04)
Nothing. No, I'm just kidding.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (03:07)
I feel like when I say that, people are like, ⁓ please just murder me. Because it's a hard question to ask because you have to think about like, yeah, what does make me different? What would make me the choice for my clients versus me not being the best fit? What is the thing that I want to be known for? And those are all big questions.
Laura Kendrick (03:10)
yeah. Yes, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (03:36)
There are more strategic questions. I think that's the other thing people don't understand about positioning is that it is a strategy because how you position your offer informs your messaging. It informs how you show up to market. It informs your sales process. It informs the other kind of offers you want to make in the future. So it is a very important.
Laura Kendrick (03:50)
Yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (04:03)
but often overlooked, especially with solo business owners and online business owners. But it's something that we should be thinking about, especially right now when the market has changed so much, people are uncertain. There is a lot of competition and people are more sophisticated buyers now than they ever were before and they're very risk adverse. So you have to start thinking about like,
Laura Kendrick (04:10)
Yeah.
for sure.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (04:32)
All right, how am I going to make my what I offer urgent and necessary instead of nice to have?
Laura Kendrick (04:41)
Hmm, I love that. let's, because I think, not I think, I always start my sentences with I think, there's a position that needs to go away. The, it's the worst. I know, I have seen people confuse their messaging and their positioning.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (04:50)
I do it too, don't worry.
Laura Kendrick (05:00)
They think that positioning is messaging. Like I think, no, geez, I've seen, let's keep on that one. ⁓ I've seen that they are folding the idea of positioning into the messaging and they have a stronger grasp of what messaging is, though that can be an enigma for people as well. How do you differentiate positioning from messaging for your audience?
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (05:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so for me, positioning is answering the question, why are you the obvious choice? And for me, positioning, it will inform what your message is, because it includes things like, who are your people? What problem do you solve for those people? What is your unique point of view?
05:29 Differentiating Positioning from Messaging
And what is the context that this is existing in? So there's a great book called Zag by Marty Neumeyer. And he talks about an oneliness statement. And one of the things I loved about it is he talks about the bigger context that gives them the why now. So all of that then can inform your messaging, because you need to be using your voice of customer in your messaging and talking about like,
what their lived experience is. So if you don't know who your people are, you can't talk to them on your website. can't, like your message isn't going to reach them. If you're not sure what the best problem you solve is, that's not gonna translate to the website. If you're like, I'm a life coach and I have a seven step plan, ⁓ that's not a unique perspective.
Laura Kendrick (06:44)
Right.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (06:45)
So the positioning tells you like what you need to articulate in the messaging so people know to choose you. So they're very interrelated with one another. So I think that's why it's hard to parse out. And it's the same, like people always ask me like, what's the difference between messaging and copy? And I was like, well, messaging is what you want to say, what are you amplifying? And copy is like, how do you translate that into words on a page?
Laura Kendrick (06:57)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
They're also intrinsically intertwined. see the same thing with, and this is interesting too, I see this in my world with like my peers who are, cause I've been trained very deeply in brand voice and how to pull that out. And in that small group of nerds, many of them are trying to differentiate brand voice for messaging. And I'm like, but you can't, but you can't like they are different things, but they are intrinsically intertwined.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (07:14)
Yes. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (07:41)
as is your positioning and your messaging. as is kind of like, apparently messaging is at the like center of this wheel, it seems from this conversation's sake. the copy too, like if you don't have clear messaging, you got nothing. Like I can write some fancy schmancy words, but they don't mean jack shit unless they're based in something.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (07:57)
Yeah!
Yeah, well, it's like marketing. I see so many people being like, how should I market my business? And it's like, ooh, that's the wrong question. It should be, what should you be saying first to market your business? Because if you don't know what to say, then you're just kind of amplifying randomness. And that's not going to lead people to working with you.
Laura Kendrick (08:11)
Yeah.
It's.
Yes, it's like my kids walking through, my son, eight years old. So he's at the prime age where he's walking through the house just making noise. It's like, can you? Not. If you have something to say, great. If you're just making noise for noises sake, not great.
08:45 The Importance of Identifying Problems
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (08:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a lot. I see that a lot with marketing. I also see that a lot with copy is that they haven't done that strategic work of positioning and messaging before. They're like, okay, I'm going to market this offer. I'm going to launch this offer. And then you start asking them like, okay, well, what problem does this solve for people? And they don't know how to answer it. Or they answer it in terms of their solution, which is always the thing I see. It's like,
Laura Kendrick (08:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (09:12)
⁓ well, their problem is they're undercharging. And I'm like, actually, that's a solution that you're giving. The problem is they're booked out with clients and they can't pay themselves still. Like, that's a problem. Yeah. And they're just like, ⁓ I didn't realize that those two things are different.
Laura Kendrick (09:22)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a big problem. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a... How did you come to, like, focus on positioning so intently? I'm curious.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (09:39)
Well, one of the interesting things is that in StrengthsFinder, one of my top five strengths is individuation, which means I am exceptionally talented at seeing what makes other people unique. And I am able to pull that out. And so for me, like focusing on positioning, was kind of that natural output of like that strength because
Laura Kendrick (09:47)
Hmm.
I love that.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (10:08)
Even when I wrote the book, The Three Word Rebellion, which is all about creating this message you want to be known for, is an expression of your positioning, if you will, the three word rebellion. And I was like, ⁓ this is a tough problem to solve. Not a lot of people want to help people figure out what makes them the only person who does what they do, because it's a difficult question. But I felt like I was just uniquely qualified, because I am.
Laura Kendrick (10:29)
Hmm?
It is.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (10:37)
good at seeing what makes people different. And I am also good at, this is going to sound so weird, treating people like research projects. Because when I work with someone one on one, I'm gathering data about them and seeing how they communicate and how they show up. And there's always things that ping my spidey senses when I'm talking to someone where I'm like,
Wait, wait, wait, like you just blew over that, but that's really important and it's not something I see in the market right now. Let's talk about that. And they're like, ⁓ I do that all the time. And I'm like, but not everybody else does that all the time.
Laura Kendrick (11:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, it's so interesting what people can't see about themselves and like myself included. This is not a like talk about other people. This is just humans in general. I was on a call. Well, it was a, I was doing a messaging VIP day with a client and he has been in business for 15 years and was in the like brick and mortar, if you will space and then COVID hit and had to transitioned into online, so had to figure out marketing for the first time in a very successful business. And it was remarkable to see the how the gold that was pouring out of him that he could not see, even though he deeply knew his clients, but he couldn't translate that deep knowing to this marketing wherewithal. And so it is such a gift to have somebody to be able to sit there and reflect back at you.
11:43 The Role of a Strategist in Positioning
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (11:44)Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (12:13)
your own genius, your own individuality, and I love that you have been able to tap into that. Because holy bananas, your clients are so lucky.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (12:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, because I pick up on things that they don't see, which is what you need for positioning if you don't want to sound like everyone else. I always give this example, like, since I do messaging, I hate the term magnetic messaging. Like, it's A, not how magnets work, but I feel like... Which I think, I was like, magnets, opposites attract, they're opposite poles.
Laura Kendrick (12:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (12:51)
It's not how magnet works. Like you don't want a client who's the opposite of you, but I digress. It drives me bonkers when people talk about magnetic messaging. And the problem with it is if you Google magnetic messaging, there are a thousand messaging strategists who talk about magnetic messaging.
Laura Kendrick (12:57)
We just pivoted into science.
amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (13:20)
So now like you're floating in this ocean of people who do messaging and you're all in the same spot and you're all stacked on each other. And so all of those magnetic messaging folks, they have now positioned themselves as a commodity. They are all interchangeable. They are all talking about the same things. And when you are positioned as a commodity, guess what? You compete on price.
Laura Kendrick (13:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (13:48)
because
I always go back to like the example of milk. If you go to buy milk in a grocery store, milk is freaking milk. Like, yeah, there might be some almond or some oat milk, but it still does the same job. So you usually buy like what's on sale.
Laura Kendrick (14:02)
What you dip your damn Oreos in. Let's move on. Yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (14:05)
Yeah,
and so you're not thinking like, my gosh, like what's the only milk for me? It's just like, okay, this one's cheap. And so as business owners, when we decide to go forward with a position like magnetic messaging, we're just now in this commodity space where anyone does what we can do instead of thinking like, okay, no, I'm gonna talk about messaging in a.
Laura Kendrick (14:27)
Yeah.
14:33 Positioning as a Unique Identifier
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (14:33)
different way, I'm going carve my own unique spot out in this ocean that only I occupy. And essentially that's what positioning does for you. It's like, okay, this is my spot in the ocean. It is where I'm planting my flag and people can come and join me on this island. And it's my people, the people I want to serve. that have my values, who have the problem that I can solve and like my approach or agree with my point of view. And that I think is the power of positioning versus, you know, and like I hate, sorry, I'm going on a total rant about this, but I see so often these super smart business owners
Laura Kendrick (15:07)
Yeah. Yeah.
Do it, rant.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (15:24)
who are using what I call the unholy trinity of boring, which is, yeah, it is the cliches, you know, like take it to the next level or the jargon. Like I always think about like somatic or trauma informed ⁓ or just kind of word salad where it sounds good, but you don't actually know what they're saying. But when they do, when they're like,
Laura Kendrick (15:42)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (15:53)
using the other words that other people are using to describe their business, it's just kind of boring. It doesn't stand out. And then once again, you're now positioned as a commodity who is competing with all of the other people who talk just like that, who talk about like, you're not getting enough leads in your business. All right, well, cool. Like that is a problem, but what's your unique take on it?
Laura Kendrick (16:09)
Yeah.
Yeah. So when you think about positioning, do you think about it as like the blanket kind of North Star positioning for the whole business, the whole founder? Well, you said you work with solopreneurs largely. So is it for that, like one person, that business? Or do you also think about it in the more granular of what's the positioning for this offer or this campaign? Like, do you take it down to those levels?
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (16:46)
Yeah, mean, mostly when I'm working with clients, we're working on like the big picture positioning because then that informs the smaller picture positioning. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (16:50)
Mm-hmm.
Look at you with better words for saying what I was trying to say.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (16:58)
I know, well, because like you want to make sure that like the problem that you're solving like overall is present in like the offers that you're making. It might be a slightly different take on the problem. Like I position, for instance, like the expert up club is really positioned as this community for people who have tried it all and nothing works and they finally want more, they want something that's tailored to them. They want to figure out like the message that's actually going to work for them. Whereas my one-on-one work is positioned as like, hey, you're great at sales, but your problem is you can't get anyone on the call. So those are all both related to each other, but I've positioned the offers slightly differently. And then that ladders up to like the bigger positioning of like not knowing what the hell ever to say or what makes you different and nobody's buying from you.
17:43 Granular vs. Big Picture Positioning
Laura Kendrick (17:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, ⁓ I'm thinking about it because I'm, I mean, don't we all like put things through the lens of our own experience? And the last time I was like thinking deeply about my positioning being off was in like a single ask. And I was like, yeah, I didn't land that plane. Cool. It was a totally a positioning. Like it was the right words through the wrong lens of like, ⁓ that should have been, you know,
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (18:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (18:23)
pivoted a little to the left, my friend. So, it's like, got it. But it, yeah, I think about not to like put too much onto people, but it can change. The nuance of it can change from the larger positioning statements and thought processes for the business as a whole to the more granular when it's.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (18:25)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (18:48)
to a particular audience in a particular setting ⁓ for a particular offer where it just shifts. And so I love that differentiation.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (18:56)
Yeah, and I mean, yeah, different offers. I always like to find like the best problem to position an offer around because usually we're solving multiple problems for our clients. I know, and most people want to go into like and talk about all the different problems they could possibly solve instead of being like, no, this is the big hairy problem that this offer solves. And this is the door they can walk through and they'll be surprised and delighted that they get so much more.
Laura Kendrick (19:08)
the rule of one in copy. mean...
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (19:24)
But yeah, for me, like when I'm positioning an offer, I'm thinking about like, okay, yeah, who is this for and what is the best problem that you can solve for them with this? And then we layer on like your unique perspective and why now, but ⁓ that problem piece is so important.
Laura Kendrick (19:43)
Yes, and as we were talking about before we hit record, it's something people struggle with. They really do. I find interestingly though, too, now because we are currently in a state, I think. Well, I know we're in this state, but I think this is part of the connection. ⁓ We're in this state in the world where things are very negative. Just no matter where you sit, things feel very negative, whirlwindy, swirly, bleh. And
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (20:09)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (20:10)
It makes it challenging. And so I've been noticing from clients and I've gotten feedback from clients when writing for them that they don't want to focus on the negative. They want to focus on the positive, which I get. And there is certainly a way that we can maneuver through still stating the problem while keeping it from being like entrenched in it. But that resistance to stepping into the problem and stepping into that negative space so that people feel seen and heard.
I'm feeling that coming up more and more and more for people, which is a really interesting thing. They're becoming resistant to stating that problem. Yeah.
20:40 Navigating Negative Spaces in Messaging
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (20:43)
Hmm.
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I always feel like when you bypass the problem, you're kind of gaslighting your clients in a weird way because it's like you're denying what their lived experience is when we don't talk about their reality. ⁓ And I mean, yes, you're right. There's a way to do it with so much.
Laura Kendrick (20:56)
Mmmmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (21:14)
empathy and sometimes a little bit of humor too that you can work in if that's part of your brand voice. But if we bypass the problem, then people, we get paid to solve problems. That's why businesses exist. We, full stop, we get paid to solve your problem. So if you don't talk about the problem and acknowledge it,
Laura Kendrick (21:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (21:38)
⁓ It's harder for them to see like, this person gets me and they understand what my current experience is. And I get that it is negative out there right now, but that only means people's problems probably have changed a little bit. ⁓ And we still have to give them that acknowledgement because yeah, I've fought with clients on this where they're just like,
Laura Kendrick (21:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (22:08)
Well, I wish I could just skip to the solution, but then I'm like, but then what's it's, what is it a solution for? Well, it's so much positive to talk about the change. And I was like, but they need to know why they need to make a change.
Laura Kendrick (22:20)
Right, right. And yeah, now, like you saying that you're gaslighting, I totally see that as well, that we're in this negative space in history for sure, but also the negativity is being bred because for the first time, some people are feeling seen and heard and like their voice is valuable and they're angry. And so like we're feeling that for better or worse. And so there's an element I think of
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (22:31)
Mm-hmm.
23:43 Acknowledging Client Experiences
Laura Kendrick (22:49)
all of this back and forth of people getting so entrenched in their thoughts. really what that is, what's stemming from that is they don't feel seen and heard. And you are just playing into that if you're not leaning into whatever the problem is that is leading them to you. So I think that's, it's all tied together and the resistance is like really pushing against what people genuinely need right now.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (23:16)
Yeah, because I mean, at the end of the day, when somebody goes to your website, they just want to know that you understand them and that you have a way forward, right? Like that you get what their problem is ⁓ and you have some type of way forward for them. But I think if we deny, like we were talking beforehand how I rewrote the Expert Up Club sales page because
Laura Kendrick (23:25)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (23:43)
The one thing all of my clients have in common is that they've all been burned by other programs. Like across the board, I don't care what industry that they're in, they have spent a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of energy into something that didn't work. And for me, I'd rather go in and acknowledge like, yeah, you've done all of these things. And I always tell people like, you've
Laura Kendrick (23:49)
Yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (24:09)
you did right, like you're an expert, you don't know how to market, so you went out and found people that you thought could help you. And it didn't work because what they were teaching you wasn't meant for you, and here's why. And they're like, ⁓ I get it, right? Like, ⁓ like I did the right thing. It was just like I was being sold the wrong playbook. And there was no way I could have known that. And that,
Laura Kendrick (24:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (24:39)
That just has the power to just make people, like blow people's minds in the best way possible. It gives them relief because most of my clients are beating themselves up for the things that aren't going wrong because they're perfectionists. But to give them that relief of like, it wasn't me that was the problem. I did the right thing. I just didn't realize that this was the wrong.
Laura Kendrick (24:47)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (25:08)
solution, the wrong playbook.
Laura Kendrick (25:10)
Yeah, yeah. And we've talked about that before, that there's things like you will, you'll go onto like Instagram or Facebook or some social media platform and there will be some ad that sounds so great. And it's like, I made a million dollars on Instagram last week with this plan and I'm gonna break it down for you. And it's like, yes, you made a million dollars on the platform selling the thing that claims that you can harness the platform, but your product is harnessing the platform that you're currently on. That does not apply.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (25:24)
Ha! Yes.
Laura Kendrick (25:37)
to somebody who is not selling something on that platform currently harnessing that platform. Are there like gonna be nuggets in there that will work? Sure. But the whole thing, unless you are also going to go sell the, know, way to make a million dollars on Instagram next week, then it's not gonna work. Yeah.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (25:55)
I know, people don't like, yeah, that's just like, Maggie and I on Duke call that like inception, right? Where it's just like everything folds in on each other and you're just like, yeah, like that works for people who are selling the platform. That's why those people have huge followings. But if you are selling, I don't know, business coaching or pet sitting, whatever, like that probably is not gonna work for you as well.
Laura Kendrick (26:02)
Mm-hmm. yeah. Yeah
Right, right, right. I love it. All right, we could keep going all day and I would like to. So ⁓ we'll just keep going.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (26:29)
Yes, we could, we could.
People are like, wrap it up, ladies.
26:34 Conclusion and Resources
Laura Kendrick (26:34)
Yeah!
now. Well, will you share with all the peoples where they can find you?
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (26:42)
Yes, you can find me at drmichellemazer.com. I know I'm whipping up a custom GPT for everyone about what makes you the obvious choice to help you start thinking about your positioning. So yeah, it should be fun. It should be fun. love building GPTs, but I think that one can help you really start honing in on what does make me.
Laura Kendrick (27:01)
Yeah, it's fun.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (27:08)
different and why should people choose me over my competition. So be sure to grab that. But yeah, come check out the website or send me a DM on LinkedIn because really that's the only place I am this day and I'm not all that active there because I am not on social media.
Laura Kendrick (27:09)
Yeah.
But you are definitely worth listening to. So I am going to encourage everybody to tap right on in and hear. Oh, and you have books too.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (27:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, if you're interested in figuring out how to express your, know we're doing audio, but this is the book, The Three Word Rebellion. So if you are interested in figuring out how to express your positioning in a way that makes people curious and want to know more, you can go grab The Three Word Rebellion book, wherever books are sold. It's on Amazon, bookshop.org, everywhere. And it's fun, it's interactive, ⁓ lots of free writing.
Laura Kendrick (27:58)
It's good.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (28:04)
that will help you figure out what makes you different too.
Laura Kendrick (28:07)
Yeah, I love that book. a good one. Well, thank you, Michelle. I appreciate you so much. It is always so amazing to get to nerd out and just get on our mutual soap boxes and, you know, share, share the things because it needs to be heard.
Michelle Mazur (she/her) (28:23)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for having me, Laura. This was a super fun conversation.
Laura Kendrick (28:29)
Bye. I'm like waving as though people can see me. Bye.
Business × Wellness = Staying Power.
Integrate self-care with marketing moves so your visibility is sustainable, human, and deeply on-brand..
-
Dr. Christiane Schroeter is a Business and Wellness Coach, award-winning Professor, and bestselling author. She created Petite Practice™ to help professionals achieve success through small, intentional actions. As the host of the globally ranked, Top 1% podcast Happy Healthy Hustle, she empowers entrepreneurs to build thriving businesses without stress or burnout. Her latest book, Discover Your Superpower, includes exclusive podcast episodes packed with expert insights, helping readers apply what they learn in real time.
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22 Instagram Posts in LESS than 10 Minutes:
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In this on-demand masterclass, you'll:
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Perfect for online business owners looking to boost visibility efficiently
This bite-sized masterclass is a petite practice resource: practical, powerful, and purposeful. Ooh la la! -
00:00 Introduction to Visibility and Superpowers
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Dr. Christiane I'm so excited you're here. And I'm so excited that you're here to talk about this. And also in this moment where for those of the people who don't know who you are, you just did a Ted Talk. So we're gonna be talking all about visibility and this is such good timing. But before we jump in, tell the people who you are.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (00:24)
Well, first of all, love the kind of introduction with a little bit of like a singing voice there. Christiana. I should definitely use that in the future. It's like, woo, creating curiosity. ⁓ So yeah, my name is Dr. Christiana Schröter and I am a university professor, hence the doctor and I'm a business and wellness coach. So I...
Laura Kendrick (00:37)
Please do.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (00:50)
Use my knowledge in marketing, innovation, entrepreneurship, and help you start a business, create a business, launch a business, and then of course scale it. And all that involves visibility, which is why we are here today. The TED Talk is probably one of the biggest events of visibility because you're standing on a stage and you're going to be broadcast to the world. So I will of course share some of those insights with you as well.
Laura Kendrick (01:16)
I'm so excited. And you have a take on visibility that I really appreciate because there are a lot of people out there who are just doing the visibility for visibility sake, but you are not about that. So do tell.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (01:33)
Yeah, well, for me, I think it's really something about sharing your superpower. Because if you feel that all what it takes, it's like about you, you, you, I guess, you know, there are people out there that it still works. At the end of the day, you always need to think, how can I help others? How can I serve others? And what is my story that might resonate with somebody else and help them?
Laura Kendrick (01:56)
Hmm.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (02:02)
So the best entrepreneurs are the ones that are working and sharing what struggles they overcame to help others overcome their own struggles.
Laura Kendrick (02:13)
I love that. And I love this kind of rooting the things in alignment and in serving because I mean, that's just where I rest my entire business and my entire business philosophy and my marketing philosophy too, that it's not just about the conversions. It is actually about the relationships and building a business that serves other people. And in doing that, it also serves me, which is delightful.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (02:40)
For sure. I think actually that the best type of visibility is not just showcasing what you really succeeded in, but even the journey and getting there. So let's say, for instance, with my TED talk, of course people ask me now, ⁓ where can I see it? But leading up to that, I shared all the little successes, struggles.
02:52 The Essence of Vulnerable Visibility
Laura Kendrick (02:52)
Mmm.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (03:08)
and failures along the way. And I think a lot of people reached out and saying that was so inspirational because you didn't share, my gosh, here she's stepping on the red dot. But she also shared the moments when you practice and it really didn't go great or you didn't even feel like practicing. And there was so much fear that resonates with becoming visible. You know, like who am I to give a Ted talk?
Laura Kendrick (03:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (03:37)
and the self-doubt that goes along with that, that I shared all of this. And I think that is really the best type of visibility, not just visible on a Sunday when you're looking all polished and it's perfect, but maybe even on a messy Monday when you're feeling like, just don't even know how to get started. That's the best type of visibility.
Laura Kendrick (03:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. And people, people have moved beyond it, which my brain just like skipped a beat because here I am like holding a tissue on my messy Wednesday. But the people have gotten beyond the perfection thing where all they want to see is the shiny, beautiful perfectness of the all of the things. And they got beyond that a while ago. And I firmly believe that some of this
trust recession that people are talking about is stemming from that perfectionism, from people not leaning into, hey, this isn't a perfect solution. It's and it's not the only solution. And I'm not the only person. I'm human. You're human. And this is a real journey that we're all on. And I love that you are talking about folding that into the visibility as well, because it certainly needs to be fold into the sales and the copy and all of those pieces. But
Folding that into how we're even stepping into the world, that's just glorious and gorgeous.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (05:04)
Yeah, I call it vulnerable visibility. Well, you're you kind of like think a little bit of like a four leaf clover, right? What are the four content pots that I want to share with the world? Because you don't want to share everything, but you need to figure out what is it maybe that I feel comfortable sharing with the goal of letting others know here is something
Laura Kendrick (05:07)
Mm, I like that. That's so good.
bright.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (05:32)
I'm struggling with, but I figured out this way of overcoming it. And then you choose these four content parts, right? And they, could be vastly different from each other, but now the magic really comes. And that's also where visibility really becomes powerful. When you think about that four leaf clover, having these little Venn diagram overlaps, right? So like, for instance, I'm a business and wellness coach because I'm a firm believer that.
To be a good business owner, have to take care of yourself, right? And so there is that four leaf clover. That's the first little venn diagram overlap right there. So I will always say to be full in alignment with myself, I want to talk about wellness in a way that it works for a business owner. I can't tell you workout for two hours per day because most of us don't have time for this, you know?
06:01 Balancing Personal and Professional Life
Laura Kendrick (06:04)
Yeah.
Right?
Right?
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (06:29)
So that's
really what you have to think about is your message. Is it really aligned with who you are and what you embody yourself? And sometimes your mess is your message, right? Sharing vulnerable portions of your life where you're, you know, maybe just not in alignment. And then you share with us how you got back into it. That's powerful.
Laura Kendrick (06:52)
It really is. It really is. Especially if your business is service based. If it is that connection with humans. my gosh, that's such gold because people buy from an emotional state and they buy from people who they relate to or they feel that connection with. And I don't know about you, but I don't connect with the shiny perfect, you know, I think is I have like younger kids.
The mom who at Pick Up is in heels and perfectly made up and looks like they just have it together. And here I come in and on my best day in jeans, not sweatpants, and haven't had makeup on all week and probably frizzy hair coming out. like, I may smell. I'm not really sure. But this is my world. And so I love when people.
have that vulnerability to them when they're real and not just, you know, putting out this perfectionist thing. Talk to us a little bit about how you fold this into like where you're going with your visibility moves. Like, how do you, like, how I get how you filter this into being present, but then how do you decide where to go and how to then present this out into the world?
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (08:19)
think as a business owner, kind of, first of all, need to be always very real. You can't be everywhere. So it's kind of like, you know, a day has 24 hours for all of us, right? So it's really about your time, your energy, and then being very efficient with your time and your energy. So it really comes down to those three parts right there. I think for me early on, I realized I can do the best work.
Laura Kendrick (08:26)
for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (08:49)
If I look at my calendar and I think about like, it's like a fruit salad. It has a little bit of everything in there, right? So it has the green portions are when I teach in the classroom and the blue portions are when I teach my workout classes because I'm also a fitness instructor. And then the red portions are when I spend time with my children. So you can see, Ooh, this is really fruity, right? We got like a lot going on. We've got the strawberries, we've got the watermelon, you know, like all that stuff.
08:54 The Power of Authenticity in Branding
Laura Kendrick (08:54)
Mmm, ooh.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (09:19)
And then of course, think what else you maybe need some alone time, right? So maybe going for a walk and listening to a book, any of that stuff needs to go in there too. And then of course, that's all that other junk too, like doctor's appointments and yada yada yada. But that's really how it works for me. So for me as a business owner, I feel I'm the most present.
Laura Kendrick (09:24)
Mm.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (09:45)
When I see variety in my day and when I feel I take care of myself to become a better mom, to become a better teacher and to become a better coach. So I'm very intentional. I listen to the books. And then when there is something that really resonates with me, I share that with my family, with my students and with my clients. Or when I feel there is something important in my life that I just took care of yesterday, I a colonoscopy.
Laura Kendrick (10:08)
Hmm.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (10:16)
actually wrote an email about my colonoscopy and it was a really fun email, Laura, you would love it. I tied it in with Taylor Swift, so you're like, what in the world? But I made it work.
Laura Kendrick (10:25)
Can't wait to read it. It'll land in my inbox.
I really can't wait to read it now.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (10:34)
Because I think it's important to remind ourselves at the end of the day, all these things you cannot put on the back burner, the self-care, those checkups, because they make you the role model that your children want to look up to your students and your clients. And you want to be that business coach that feels like they're not totally overwhelmed of being stuck or trying to be everywhere all at once. They're like, you know what?
Laura Kendrick (10:42)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (11:03)
Today I can't do a podcast recording because guess what? I had that colonoscopy, right? And that's so great and so real. It cannot tell you how many people responded back to me with my Taylor Swift colonoscopy email and said, I so appreciated you did this and reminded me I need to do this too.
Laura Kendrick (11:20)
Yeah. And so it feels to me like some of what you're folding into this is your intuition and that it is enabling you to do your visibility in your marketing and shift in the moment when you need to.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (11:35)
For sure. think that it needs to feel right, not oversharing, but more sharing with a loving, gentle hand that I always think I want to talk like I'm talking to a best friend. What would I tell my best friend right now? I would tell my best friend.
Laura Kendrick (11:39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
11:58 Navigating Self-Care and Visibility
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (11:58)
Did you take care of yourself recently did you have those 10 or 15 minutes where you went on that walk and listen to that book that you always wanted to listen to did you do that today. And that's really what i want to do with my clients and my audience on my podcast are the readers of my books that i want to make them feel i appreciate you i see you and i know you're struggling let me help you.
Laura Kendrick (12:23)
I love that and that in my world and with my clients, that piece comes down to what I like to talk about is in the brand voice. And so your brand voice is very friend. It's like nurturing and gracious. I love that. And I love honoring that because once that, and you're also talking about these boundaries where you're talking about what you want to share and don't want to share.
That also can come down to having a well-established brand voice too, because it creates this separation between you and the brand that is not the big corporatized separation. it's Coca-Cola is Coca-Cola, nobody who works there is actually Coca-Cola. But for us in these smaller brands, especially in this world where we have really been taught that we need to, we are the brand.
It enables us to have this personal branding, if you will, but also have a line between us and our brand. And know where that is. For instance, in my world, my partner and I have conscientiously decided not to put our children on the internet and not on social media. That's just a choice we've made. It's our own path. I do share that I have kids. I share stories about my kids. I do not share their faces.
And that is a, you know, that's a difference between me and my brand, my personal journey and my brand where I've drawn that line. And I love that you're talking about this because you are talking about this difference between the brand and yourself, but also enabling that brand to very intentionally be personable, which I love that because it's so important to intentionally decide these things and not just allow the brand to run away with you. having that is dictating
a lot of what your visibility moves are, which is so cool.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (14:22)
So many gold nuggets right there. I very intentionally, for my visibility, chose my title, doctor, because I earned my PhD, but my first name, Christiana. And some people, you know, like just yesterday, I could tell at the doctor's office, they walk out into the waiting room and then there is this moment of silence and they're looking at a piece of paper. I know that it's going to be me because they don't know how to pronounce my first name. And then you just go for it. Like, Christy.
Laura Kendrick (14:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
14:47 Embracing Your Unique Presence
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (14:52)
or something and it's like, yeah, that's great. You know, but I very intentionally chose Dr. Christiana is how it's actually pronounced because it shows I earned the title, but I am originally from Germany. Those are my roots. And so I become visible by sharing who I am, where I'm from, that I made the journey from the United States to the United States. live in California now where I work and
Laura Kendrick (14:52)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (15:20)
my roots are European. So I have a European efficiency in my coaching, but I still have that human centered design, that thinking because I have a PhD in applied economics. And Laura, the one thing I can tell you with regard to your personal branding is my secret favorite thing is to be completely underestimated in a room. People look at you and they're like, yeah, all right, she's there.
Laura Kendrick (15:43)
Mmm, I love that.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (15:49)
And then all of a sudden I'm like, yeah, and I also have a podcast and books that I published and just give a Ted talk. they're like, my, actually. And so that's, that's my favorite thing. You know, when people, all of a sudden, you know, just the way that you show up and you're just taking it all in. And then all of a sudden, like, they're like, ⁓ just because you are, you are that person.
Laura Kendrick (15:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually love that too. Yeah.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (16:18)
that shows up human and visible just the way that you are.
Laura Kendrick (16:22)
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it stems for me from coming from a family of overachievers and being the youngest. But I appreciate that, too. And it's funny, last year, I mean, I've stepped on many stages and given many talks, but there was last year there was one that I was actually the last speaker and I very quietly in my own way. Like I do not show up in rooms in high heels. I mean, I'm sitting right here in like flannel. This is who I am. I show up this way. I'm very low key.
I do not stand out in a room of 300 people, but it was fun because I think that the person like a lot of people who were there were like, what is she going to do? And then I got on stage and owned the fucking room and like that because I know I can do that and just got up there and knocked it out of the park. People came like screaming my name after everything broke. And it was just so fun to have that moment where just knowing that I'm quietly sitting here like
You guys will all be in my hand in a minute.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (17:24)
Exactly. I think that that is really when you have that confidence in the comfort with the confidence that makes you visible because you know what you can do and who you are and just stepping into the visibility and not trying to pretend somebody else, but rather just sharing authentically who you are.
Laura Kendrick (17:31)
Yeah, but you don't have to be ego. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, yes.
Yes, where you don't, I don't have to walk into a room with a big red flag over my head saying like me, me, me, me, me. And that's also not me. Like I actually have a friend who very intentionally, she is a coach for speakers and she will very intentionally walk into a room in a full on red outfit in six inch heels. Like she's doing it intentionally, but that's her personality. It aligns, it is beautiful.
17:45 Celebrating Your Journey and Growth
It works for her. She definitely will go to a conference and everyone will know who she is. And she doesn't actually even have to get on the stage. But that's not who I am. That's not who a lot of people are. And I'm also personally not the person who's going to stand up and say, let me give you all of my credentials so that you know who I am to begin with. am not. I am more that quiet person. And I know a lot of people are. And I love the permission that you're giving here to just be you in your own way.
and allow your shininess to shine through in those visibility moves.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (18:48)
Yeah, again, I call it the vulnerable visibility, really feeling that you're stepping into yourself, being aligned with your personal superpower, because only then when you really tap into your personal brand, you can become the best version of yourself when you're becoming visible.
Laura Kendrick (19:09)
you'll call in the people who resonate with you which are the people that you actually want to
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (19:15)
also think and this is an amazing motivation to you or inspiration as you is the word inspiration because we don't need more motivation we just need more inspiration. To you or maybe sitting on the sidelines right now if you come to the point where you post that youtube video or that real and instagram and they're going to be some people there that are posting maybe negative comments high five yourself.
Laura Kendrick (19:26)
I love.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (19:45)
Because in that moment you made it, you made your brand so strong that there are some people that don't resonate with that brand. And I think that's a really critical point to where out of a sea of people, all of a sudden you're starting to rise up. And there are some people that don't appreciate that version of yourself at that point you made it. So always high five yourself when you have people that unsubscribe from your email.
Laura Kendrick (20:07)
Yeah.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (20:12)
that don't like what you post on videos, when maybe give you some weird comments on social media. You did it. Yeah. So you spoke your voice. Yay. You for being figuring out who you are and for being vocal and verbal and visible and aligned with what you're supposed to be.
Laura Kendrick (20:12)
Yes.
Yeah.
That's such an amazing reminder. I love that. All right. So, I mean, we could keep going on this for ages and ages and ages, but where can the people find you?
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (20:47)
Find me on drchristiana.com. So first name, Christiana, with an E and then doctor written out. And of course I am on social media too, dr.christiana or check out my podcast, Happy Healthy Hustle. That's certainly a place where I step into visibility. I have some amazing guests on there, but I also share some of my...
knowledge from marketing, innovation, entrepreneurship, and make it super accessible so you're actually feeling you're learning while you're laughing. And of course, as always, make sure, you know, to go to Amazon, grab one of my books, Discover Superpower, or How to Master Your Goals, because those are quick, easy, and they might just help you align yourself with your own visibility.
Laura Kendrick (21:38)
Yeah, and with a new book coming soon, I'm excited for it. Thank you for being here and thank you for sharing all these insights and I hate it, but it kind of is and permissions to be us, to be who we are in all of our visibility and marketing moves. It's amazing. Thank you.
Dr. Christiane Schroeter (21:43)
Thank you.
Thank you.
The Pre-Strategy Strategy.
Before headlines and funnels, tune the nervous system: shed conditioning, train your RAS, and watch every tactic work harder with less hustle.
-
Mindi Huebner is a Subconscious Success Alchemist who helps high-achieving women shed the conditioning, rewire the pressure patterns, and build success from the inside out.
With decades of experience and certifications in neuroscience-based coaching, NLP, and hypnosis, she goes deeper than mindset into the identity-level shifts that make ease feel safe and success feel unmistakably yours. Her signature blend of science, soul, and intuitive precision melts pressure patterns, so women can lead from their most aligned self and expand into a version of success that feels grounded, clean, and fully theirs.
This is identity alchemy. -
THE SUBCONSCIOUS SUCCESS IDENTITY BLUEPRINT
Grab it here! 👈You’ve outgrown the identity that built your success.
And that’s why it feels heavier than it should.
No planner, strategy, or discipline can close the gap between the success you’re creating and the identity your subconscious is still running.
That’s where the Blueprint comes in. -
00:00 Introduction to Subconscious Success
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Welcome in Mindy, I am so pumped that you are here.
Mindi Huebner (00:04)
Same, same, pumped.
Laura Kendrick (00:06)
I mean, it's the best way to describe it. So let's start by having you introduce yourself to all the people who are listening who don't know you yet, but should.
Mindi Huebner (00:17)
Laura is using her best like dreamy voice too. I love that. Cause we're, cause we're coming into your ears. Should I use my meditation voice? My clients, my, my clients say I have a Mindy voice, right? When I, when I make meditations for them or hypnotize them. ⁓ So hi, I'm Mindy. I am a subconscious success alchemist. What does that even mean? I'm, I'm certified in lots of modalities that help you.
Laura Kendrick (00:25)
I know, do want me to turn mine on too? Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (00:46)
reprogram your subconscious, shed the conditioning that keeps you showing up in the pressure to prove and perform so that you can actually lead from self-trust, from authenticity and create success that's sustainable, that's juicy, that's delicious, not someone else's version of what is possible for you, truly.
your version of what's possible for you.
Laura Kendrick (01:16)
I love that so very much. And I feel like it's not, it's something like we're all striving for. It's like anybody who's listening to this and that like landed so hard on your ears. It's like, you are not alone. ⁓
This is just, think, I mean, part of it is the way women, I mean, we can go down the whole patriarchy line all day long, but it's like, we're trained to be this way. But then also in the business space, I actually wrote a blog about this not too long ago, where I was in a group, a small group of women who were very successful. And somebody asked a question and it just came to this, like the answers were, have you tried this? Have you tried that? Have you tried this? Have you tried that? I'm like, does anybody wanna ask a question first of like?
Mindi Huebner (01:34)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (02:00)
Let's dig in. But it made it very clear to me that it just kind of really opened that curtain that said, this is really a part of the culture in the online business space of we're all just striving and trying to hit these shoulds and these benchmarks and these frameworks and all the things we've learned. And we're not tapped into our own intuition. And you filter all this in and, hello, we all need Mindy in our lives.
Mindi Huebner (02:10)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I won't say no to that. And I'm underlining what you said, because that's exactly how I got to where I am. I did believe that rest was lazy, that hustle was the only way to create what you want, that you could sleep when you were dead and just drink some more coffee and all of those things I fully bought into, you know, no shade, but massive shade to Gary Vee, right? Like to that kind of
of identity that that was the only way it could happen. And the moment that I had this beautiful crossroads of my one business ending, my division closed, that wasn't a path anymore. And what should air quotes have been like, ⁓ this is terrible. This is devastating. I was like, ⁓ I'm not that upset. That's telling me something.
02:58 The Pressure to Prove and Perform
Laura Kendrick (03:21)
Yeah
Mindi Huebner (03:24)
I dug into what's sustainable, who am I being, what is my subconscious, like where do habits come from, what is happening here? And that allowed me to then create the actual sustainable aligned success that I teach and guide clients through every day.
Laura Kendrick (03:42)
Okay, I mean, we could live here forever. Like, I feel like we could just never turn this off. It'll be a summit of a like 50 hour conversation about this. But let's pivot it into talk about how you like see that as a strategy. Cause that is something that I am just like all the light bulbs go off in my brain.
Mindi Huebner (03:59)
Let's.
Yeah. So your subconscious identity, the secret no one's talking about is truly what is deciding what converts for you. You cannot outperform your subconscious identity. So when a website isn't converting like we want to, like most of us, we're gonna go straight to the funnel, the headline, the offer, right? Have you tried this? Have you tried this? Have you tried this? Exactly like you said.
Laura Kendrick (04:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (04:40)
And really, none of those things can be fully ⁓ fleshed out and operating at top tier unless your subconscious identity feels safe to be seen as the woman who has the offers and the website and those things. Most high achieving women, we've got plenty of strategy, right? We don't need another strategy yet. What we are looking for, what...
seems far away sometimes is that internal, ⁓ it's safe, right? We get to, again, shed that conditioning because we're always winning the game we're playing. And so if our subconscious believes it's safer to stay behind the scenes, guess what game we're winning? Because we're always winning. Our subconscious is gonna prove us right. Our RAS, our reticular activating system, a filter in our brain.
Laura Kendrick (05:15)
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (05:34)
in very general terms, it's gonna bring us what we anticipate and expect. It's gonna give us the proof for who we're being. And so if we're being the person who's playing small, then we're gonna win. Like, yay, you're that, here, I say that to say this, you're that powerful. You are that powerful. Because what looks like procrastination is protection. What looks like overworking is a nervous system trying to earn worth.
05:52 Understanding Subconscious Identity
Laura Kendrick (05:52)
Yeah.
Yes.
Mmm.
Mindi Huebner (06:04)
Let's sit there for a second, right? Yeah, yeah. That pressure, not too long, that pressure to prove, because ultimately underneath all that is, if I am productive and I perform and I achieve, then I am massively valuable and massively worthy. We have been conditioned there as well, especially
Laura Kendrick (06:07)
Do we have to?
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (06:31)
for my high achievers that are listening, my gifted and talented ⁓ humans from school, right? We know, ⁓ if we achieve, then we get attention. Right? That's a good thing. What looks like inconsistency is often exhaustion from trying to be someone we're not. Like, think about that. I just had to ooo myself thinking about like...
Laura Kendrick (06:43)
Mm-hmm.
Ooh, yeah. Yeah, that's a mic drop right there.
Mindi Huebner (06:59)
No wonder I, okay, so side note, I'll do it really quick. I said to myself, we're gonna do this, go live every day on Instagram. It's gonna be great. Like we're gonna do, I think I said 21 days, right? I think I did four days in a row and I was like, F this. I don't like it. Like I don't want to, this is not, I don't want to do it in this way. Do I understand that that strategy really works and can work and can be great?
Yes, and yet it wasn't working for me. Why? Because I didn't want to be there. It was against who, myself and my identity. So it wasn't a discipline problem that I didn't show up the fifth day. It was a subconscious identity conflict, right? We get to look underneath that. We get to look underneath that.
Laura Kendrick (07:30)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
And I love that anybody who's been a part of my world for any period of time has heard me talk about those kinds of things too, that there is no, there really is no framework or strategy or anything that can fully and completely be washed, rinsed, repeated, and just slapped on one business after another, after another, after another. There's always going to be even sometimes nuance, sometimes subtle shifts, whatever it is, but it's for exactly that reason that.
No business owner, no founder, no team, no audience, no message, no offer is exactly the same. And it's all about, well, in my world up until this conversation, I've been thinking about it as like capacity and like your voice and just where you're comfortable. And you're putting a lot of the whys underneath that, which I am just in hog heaven and also sitting here thinking I need a like good.
Mindi Huebner (08:29)
capacity.
Laura Kendrick (08:41)
strong therapy session after this conversation. It's like self reflection.
08:46 The Pre-Strategy Strategy
Mindi Huebner (08:46)
Well, speaking to what you were just saying about capacity, we can't even install a high converting strategy on top of an identity that doesn't feel safe. Every decision is filtered through our subconscious. What our subconscious believes is safe, is possible, is allowed, and it will keep us repeating the known. And so, right, anything that's unknown, it's gonna trigger that danger.
Laura Kendrick (09:06)
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (09:11)
and then we're gonna win the game we're playing, right? I know how to be me. I already know how to be me. And that's why I call it the pre-strategy strategy, right? This identity calibration that makes marketing execution possible and powerful. ⁓ it is safe to show up like this or I get to be courageous in this. Because the strategy, speaking to capacity again, really only works when you're fully available to hold what it brings.
Laura Kendrick (09:15)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Right, Yes. And it's interesting that we're having this conversation because I was thinking about, I was doing a shift in my own business and hired a sales coach and like amazing sales coach. I'm so grateful, but then I could always feel in all of this, this like resistance. And I knew it was internal and it was just like, but I can't get underneath it.
They did address some of the mindset pieces and shadow work and things like that, but not on a super deep level. And as somebody who, for me, also has a background in yoga and hypnotherapy and things. So I totally get where you're coming from. I also walked into that with like, I'm glad you're enlightening this for people, but also I'm swimming in the deep end over here. So this conversation isn't like, it's not there and you're not.
Mindi Huebner (10:36)
Perfect.
Laura Kendrick (10:38)
scratching under to whatever it is that I'm feeling personal resistance in right now. And I love that you're talking about getting to that thing because I think we've all felt that of like, here's these great tactics, these great strategies, these great people who are really good at what they do and can actually help us break these barriers. But also there's a barrier, like there's something holding that back.
Mindi Huebner (11:03)
Exactly, exactly. And you hit it. So there's mindset and there's identity. Mindset is surface. That is surface. Identity, that's subconscious. That is the root. That's underneath. Are both essential? Yes. Right? our brains are made with neuroplasticity, growth mindset is possible, like shifting, being open to, right?
creating a better mindset is our relationship with something. And so while we could work on that, our relationship with sales, okay, while we could work on that, if our identity is, we believe that sales is actually pushy or this or that, like lipstick on a pig changing the mindset, right? It won't work or it's one step forward, two steps back.
Laura Kendrick (11:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
11:51 Misalignment and Decision Fatigue
Mindi Huebner (11:58)
misalignment with identity. That is really what we're talking about. And that's the perfect place. Like these are some signs that you might be misaligned with your identity. ⁓ Decision fatigue and delay loops like you're editing and editing and pushing things off or I just had a client tell me like I didn't open an email because I didn't want to see what the email was going to say. Right? Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (12:25)
⁓ been there. Yeah,
been there.
Mindi Huebner (12:27)
Yeah, second guessing what the email was going to say, right? Yes, you nothing feels quite right. So nothing gets fully launched. Nothing gets fully done because like, I could tweak. could do this. Or you could be in this quiet behind the scenes curation as opposed to the bold truth, right? You're technically visible, but emotionally filtered. You're using polished language to avoid revealing the real you, right?
Laura Kendrick (12:51)
Hmm.
I don't have that fucking problem, personally.
Other ones, but not that one.
Mindi Huebner (12:59)
Well, this one, how about this one? Over-strategizing as self-protection. You're hiding in the back end, you're busy preparing, not publishing. Okay, I do have, I definitely do this. You collect tools. Now this would be instead of trusting your voice, I do trust my voice and I am a tool, I'm like, oh, that $27 thing. I need that. I need that. You just hit the nail on the head.
Laura Kendrick (13:06)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah. There's something else I can learn? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (13:28)
So some of us are procrastin learners and I always get the shit done. However, I will absolutely learn seven new things first sometimes, you know, to create that, safety, right? Like, yes, yes. Our subconscious, for those of you that don't know, makes 95 % of our daily decisions. So I want you to think about Ant and an Elephant, and this is a book as well.
Laura Kendrick (13:31)
Mm-hmm.
for sure. Yes.
Mindi Huebner (13:56)
So the ant is 5%, this is your conscious brain. This is what you think you're operating in. This 5 % when 95 % is your subconscious and that is what actually is driving almost everything, right? This is why, in my opinion, SMART goals miss the mark. We don't attach our subconscious identity to it. So we logically map it all out. It's this date, it's this time, it's this many. Okay, well the subconscious,
Laura Kendrick (14:02)
Hmm?
Mindi Huebner (14:25)
thinks and pictures and sounds and feelings, how do I connect that? How do I get to be the woman who can execute what gets to happen for this smart goal? Your subconscious is always gonna prioritize safety over growth. You train it to know that growth is safe, right? You get to, you get to flex, I always call it like flexing that self-confidence muscle, flexing that ⁓ subconscious stretch.
Laura Kendrick (14:29)
Mmm.
Yes, yes.
14:43 The Power of Identity Work
Mindi Huebner (14:52)
muscle until you create safety in that expansion, the best strategies will sit unused or scratched on the surface or you'll collect them. Right? You'll have a little dusty little collection of strategies and or people that you've worked with that are brilliant people.
Laura Kendrick (15:04)
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (15:11)
and you've implemented some or you've done part of it and then not, you've laid it down and gone like, that wasn't the thing. There must be this next thing instead. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Anyone who says they don't is a liar.
Laura Kendrick (15:22)
Yes, yes, yes. We all do that. mean, that it's, yeah, you just, ⁓
yes, 100%. I mean, it's that thing of, you hear in our space a lot, people talking about like buying, like it's one of the sales techniques to the terminology of buying another course and having it collect dust on the digital shelf. Like I've heard that a thousand times. It's like, I mean, we've, yes.
Mindi Huebner (15:44)
You're right. Me too. And it's,
and it's true. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (15:49)
huh.
By the way, I totally bought a $47 thing today. Like this morning laying in bed of like, that ad hit right home. And I knew exactly what I was doing. I'm like, that one's probably never going to get open. Cool.
Mindi Huebner (16:01)
I bought a $27 one yesterday.
Laura Kendrick (16:03)
never goes away.
Mindi Huebner (16:04)
You know, maybe it's the lottery ticket. You know, like, I'm still doing the work. I'm still moving forward, right? I'm doing all the things. like, what if? Like, that's being open to possibility, you know?
Laura Kendrick (16:09)
Yes, that's gonna be the one that moves the needle.
It is, it is. And there's a part of me that is definitely not begrudging of it because all of these little things that have folded into the way I do my work and interact with my people and my clients, my audience, my marketing, like all the things, and they've come from the most obscure and odd places because that's where like my oddities, know, of like, where's my interest lying? I mean, I'm even flashing to like thinking about
some of the, you 500 hour yoga teacher training stuff I've done of like, ⁓ you hear like you store stress hormones in the calf muscles. How can we filter that?
Mindi Huebner (17:00)
Seriously, like that, I love that though, right? Us bringing all of that together. ⁓ For the next summit, when we do a 50 hour conversation, we can talk all about every identity being a role with a goal. Because that, that is the truth as well. I hope everyone is having as good a time as we're having.
Laura Kendrick (17:05)
Mm-hmm.
Whoa, is this the potato chip conversation?
17:26 Shifting Perspectives for Success
Mindi Huebner (17:26)
Your subconscious identity, like believe it or not, let me tell you how quickly it can shift. your filtering, your brain deletes, distorts and generalizes based on what you believe. I had a client believe that the only way to hit the million dollars in revenue was to give up her schedule, her values, who she was, like right? Because the other people at that million dollar mark, right? She was not aligned with them.
Laura Kendrick (17:47)
Mmm. different.
Mindi Huebner (17:55)
She wasn't aligned with their schedule. She wasn't aligned with what was happening in what she could see happening, right? And so she made that mean it wasn't safe to make a million bucks in revenue. We had one 15 minute session.
Laura Kendrick (18:07)
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (18:11)
three months, she hit the million dollars, three months, because she had the plan, she already knew, right? It was implementing the plan, it was being safe to have the capacity to hold the plan and implement the plan, knowing that she got to stay true to herself, she didn't have to give up her schedule, that was conditioning, right? That was conditioning that she said that is the power of
Laura Kendrick (18:26)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (18:40)
reframing of doing the subconscious identity work of really getting to the root of what is driving things behind the scenes.
Laura Kendrick (18:49)
I'm like right now equating to, because of course you filter this into your own stuff, right? And I'm thinking about the work I do with clients and like just how powerful it would be to sit down and suss out somebody's brand voice. Who is that aligned? Like I feel like doing that kind of foundational kind of clarity work that we do in the copy space on someone who is so.
centered and, you know, in that headspace. ⁓ my gosh. I couldn't even imagine. Yeah, how out of this world on point that would be. Love it.
Mindi Huebner (19:22)
Unstoppable. Unstoppable.
Yes, yes. And this work is not a that would be nice. Because you hit the roadblock every single time. So in some capacity in some form, same, same, right? I have my own, you know, coaches for those types of things, right? We get caught and not understand what is.
Laura Kendrick (19:34)
Right, right.
Right. Testify.
Yeah.
Mindi Huebner (19:55)
catchiness, right? It's not our inner beliefs and our outer messaging are when they're misaligned, right? Like, we know it and when they're aligned, our presence becomes magnetic. Like we can't, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right? Our copy comes easier, our strategies come easier, like all of that kind of stuff.
Laura Kendrick (20:06)
Yes. my gosh, yes.
Yeah.
Do you find when you work with people or when they start to kind of, because here's the thing. I've thought about in the past, I remember being at a local networking group, which my local area is not real engaged in the online business space. So they were all kind of brick and mortar people. But I remember chatting with somebody and she was super new. And it was amazing that she had just started a business like a week ago and showed up at a networking group. like, wow.
20:44 Navigating Growth Edges
Good for you. But she was talking about basically having imposter syndrome. And I gave her that terminology. was like, that's a thing. also, it doesn't, as far as I can tell, never goes away. It just gets like the kind of waves get a little lower and further apart. And so you just kind of get a little bit more comfortable, used to it, more confidence kind of things. Do you find that when you do the work with people thatMindi Huebner (20:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (21:09)
the alignment becomes permanent or that it becomes like that where the alignment is more consistent, but the misalignments happen, but are easier to navigate less, you know, separate waves.
Mindi Huebner (21:21)
Yes, yes, yes, their level of awareness rises. So alignment has way more ease in it. Self-trust, ⁓ being your authentic self. All of those things have way more ease. And like a client I was talking to today, when you're up against a growth edge and you're doing something new, those old habits, beliefs, right? They don't come back.
Laura Kendrick (21:25)
Mm.
Mindi Huebner (21:49)
and take over, they pop up and they go, hey, would you, would you like to try this on again? remember me? Like I stopped you from doing XYZ. Like that was good, wasn't it? Let's do this again. Your awareness rises massively. And, and so for, for me, my clients, like they reach out, they're like, hey, I had a call today and, and she's having lots of Ascension symptoms, right?
And I said, this is you, all of this is because where you are. You are at this massive growth edge to that literal next level revenue. And it's scary, right? You know how to be you right now. And so who will I be if I make a million dollars? Who will I be if I?
Laura Kendrick (22:22)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mindi Huebner (22:41)
have a $25,000 offer that people say yes to easily. Who will I be? Because I know how to be this version of me, right? And so that's where that stretch comes in and we, the tiny bits of work that they do every day are casting votes towards that next version of them, that embodiment, that version where they've shed the conditioning.
Laura Kendrick (22:49)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mindi Huebner (23:09)
What's she thinking, doing, saying, feeling, drinking, reading? Like literally a massive embodiment of her because your subconscious does think in pictures and sounds and feelings. And so anytime you can tap into that in an empowered way, now you're that much closer to her, like her and you. You're the same then.
23:32 Conclusion and Resources
Laura Kendrick (23:32)
I love that you said the way you put that of, you want to try this on again? And all I could think is like those stupid little like rolly things with the stupid little clips we used to put on in like the early 2000s in high school in our hair. And I'm like, no, no, I don't.
Mindi Huebner (23:47)
Exactly.
Exactly.
Laura Kendrick (23:53)
Okay, so you've dropped some amazingness and I mean the people need to be able to find you. So where can they find you?
Mindi Huebner (24:02)
Yes, come and find me at, ⁓ if you're on socials, find me on Instagram. Otherwise, I know there's gonna be ⁓ some great things for you to take advantage of from me. You can find me on my website at mindyheabner.com too. I love to hang out with people and chat it up and be in my DMs if you're social media kind of human. Otherwise, I wanna talk to you in email, because this is...
this is where it's at, right? Is having those true deep conversations.
Laura Kendrick (24:36)
Yes, I love it. Well, you're going to be getting emails from me after all this. Got some shit to uncover here. I love it. Well, thank you, Mindy. I so appreciate you adding such goodness to this conversation.
Mindi Huebner (24:40)
Yay! Amazing!
This ⁓ has been such a gift to be able to open everyone up to now, their Raz is open to a new level of awareness about who they're being and who they get to be, what feels safe, what doesn't. And things will never be the same for anyone listening to this.
Laura Kendrick (25:13)
No shit.
Break the Rules, Keep the Conversions.
A science-meets-spirit tour of website strategy with Emily Schickli—where intuitive clarity, brand voice, and conversion smarts play nice. Ditch the dusty frameworks, keep what works, and make your site feel like you (while it sells like crazy).
-
Emily Schickli, founder of The Compass Club, helps folks peacefully accomplish their #1 life goal in 6 months––without relying on willpower, taking scary leaps before they're ready, or burning out.
She offers 1:1 coaching, online courses, and has hosted productivity and wellbeing workshops for Google, Meta, Microsoft, YouTube, and more. Emily is certified as a Life Coach, NLP, EFT, and Hypnosis Practitioner, yoga and meditation teacher, Reiki Master, and Shamanic Practitioner with a Masters from the University of Chicago. Visit her website, https://emilyschickli.com to learn more. -
The Clarity Compass Journal
Grab it here! 👈Whether you're wrangling self-doubt as you write your About Page or you're stuck on how to convey the magic of your brand through design...
The Clarity Compass Journal will help you unlock your intuition (your rebellious superpower!) so you can get clarity and keep making calm progress.
Inside The Clarity Compass Journal, you'll:
- Uncover your intuitive style through a playful quiz so you can access your inner wisdom and get clear on how to move forward with your website (and all your projects!)
- Get the clarity you need to make progress with prompts tailored to your intuitive style and where you're stuck in your creative process
- Explore 2 rituals & a Higher Self Audio Meditation so you can drop in without the guesswork and keep moving forward with calm confidence -
00:00 Introduction to Emily Schickli and Her Work
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
⁓ Emily, I am so happy that you are here because this is at the core of what all of this is about. And I love the marriage. And also, I just love that you actually have a past, shall we say, in conversion copywriting. So this really is a really cool marriage that's happening. So I'm so happy you're here.
Emily Schickli (00:00)
You
You
Me too! Yes! So excited!
Laura Kendrick (00:30)
I know. Okay, first let's start with the, you know, the intros with the people who don't know who you are. So please share a little bit about yourself.
Emily Schickli (00:40)
Yeah, so I'm Emily Schickley and I'm the creator of the Compass Club. I'm all about helping people peacefully accomplish their goals, whether that's their number one life goal or a secret dream potentially underneath the surface without burning out because I think there are so many strategies and pressures about how to achieve things with grit and relying on willpower and all things, right? And so I'm not about that, more about.
actually feeling good throughout the entire process, not just at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I bring together a lot of different modalities. Like you mentioned, I have this like secret past in conversion copywriting, working in tech, but I also am really into science-backed strategies. So I'm holistic life coach, a lot of different certifications there with NLP and hypnosis. So I like to nerd out about how the brain works, you know, how we can actually change habits.
Laura Kendrick (01:12)
Yes.
Nice. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (01:36)
And then the more spiritual side as well. So I am a certified practitioner in earth-based shamanism, which we can talk more about today because it's very related to our fun topic, a Reiki master teacher and a yoga meditation teacher. So that's all to say that I'm a huge nerd and I love bringing the science and the spirit together. And I'm also obsessed with curriculum. So I have a master's from university of Chicago in curriculum design and English.
Laura Kendrick (01:44)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily Schickli (02:06)
So that's all to say that I break down complex concepts into bite-sized chunks.
Laura Kendrick (02:14)
It's really remarkable how similar our pasts are.
Emily Schickli (02:18)
tell me more. Spill this tea, Laura.
Laura Kendrick (02:19)
Because I have a master's degree in education. So I, too, love curriculum and all the scaffolding and the thinking of the different ways people learn and interact with their world. And I, too, am a yoga meditation teacher. I, too, like there's just so many like, oh my gosh, Emily, you and I are going to have to get on a plane and meet in the middle. And we're going to have to do the things.
Emily Schickli (02:24)
Mmm.
Sign me up for that.
We'll write a website and then we'll meditate about it.
Laura Kendrick (02:49)
love it.
Let's meditate about it first and then maybe get to the website. ⁓
Emily Schickli (02:54)
I love that. I love it.
02:57 The Intersection of Science and Spirituality in Coaching
Laura Kendrick (02:57)
Let's land in the idea of websites, because this is an interesting thing. And this actually came up for me not too long ago, like in between the time that we made this plan and then are here. I was actually on a call with a bunch of like copy word nerds, which is one of my favorite calls to be on, like really deep thinkers. And they were actually talking about how breaking the rules of copy.
adore that because copywriters are full of rule. that honestly it really is a conversion copywriting is rule after rule after rule framework after framework after framework. There is a whole thought process around the psychology of buying how people interact with all these things. Like this is very well studied stuff. But then at the end of the day we talk to people and there are people especially in like the world that you and I have played in in our worlds.
Emily Schickli (03:46)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (03:56)
or lives, should say, instead of saying world 50,000 times. In the wellness space, in the more crunchy hippie-dippie space that I deeply love, where people, communicate differently. They don't necessarily follow the appropriate and correct way of communicating on a website for conversions, where it's short sentences, it's supposed to be these kinds of words.
Emily Schickli (03:59)
you
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (04:23)
They have more flowery language. It goes wider. And if you take all that away and put the conversion brush over it or filter, you end up with a website that doesn't sound like the person. And things get off. The brand voice is off. There's so many pieces here. So I am loving coming at this idea of a website from an intuitive place.
Emily Schickli (04:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes, you're speaking my language here. I am a big time rebel. I didn't share all of my like personality quiz things. Are you into that? Do you know like the human design and the astrology and all the stuff?
Laura Kendrick (04:53)
me too!
I know, yes, yes, and I'm not the like person to sit here and teach it, but yes, yes.
Emily Schickli (05:05)
Where, yes,
yeah, I'm like the rebel, the manifesting generator for those of you in the know listening, right? The INFJ, I like doing things differently. And I'm so glad you brought this up of like intentionally breaking the rules and by doing so that actually unlocks the magic, right? That unlocks that uniqueness because if we're all following the same rules, of course there are tons of variants within that and know, word choice and all the things, but if we're all following the same rules, it...
Laura Kendrick (05:23)
Yes.
Emily Schickli (05:35)
kind of gets tired, right? Yeah, and we lose out on that uniqueness. It's funny because you reminded me of two funny stories in which ⁓ I kept butting against these rules that I think our listeners might find entertaining, where I was making my website and I have all of these images, right, on my homepage and whatnot, and I ended up bucking the SEO
Laura Kendrick (05:37)
Yes. Yes.
06:04 Breaking the Rules of Copywriting
Emily Schickli (06:04)
recommendations like what to put in the alt text for the images and I put in affirmations.
so that people like unconsciously are picking up on these like empowering phrases and that energy gets translated through the screen. This sounds super woo, we're just diving in. But like why not, right? Like if you want to have your website be infused with this energy and aliveness, why not play with all of the different ways you can infuse that?
Laura Kendrick (06:37)
Yeah, that's really interesting. because I'm coming at it as the conversion copywriter and feeling the difference that has shifted in that space, especially when it comes to launch copy. And even hearing from my clients too, where so often I hear people come at me with, I don't want a long form sales page. It feels very 2022, or it feels from a different time.
Emily Schickli (06:37)
They doesn't have to be only an invisible copy, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (07:06)
And it's funny because when I first stepped into Launch Copy, as you often do, you're following the rules. And I know all the arguments for a proper long form sales page. And I don't think those arguments will ever fully die because they are solid. And there's a reason why now we call them sales pages. They used to call them sales letters. They've existed for a long time and in this format. And it makes sense. It does actually walk people through this path.
Emily Schickli (07:28)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (07:36)
that does work for some buyers. But I also get it that it doesn't necessarily resonate anymore. It doesn't feel like the right time to kind of be wearing that outfit, if you will, on your website. And for the person who's putting it out there, they're sometimes feeling like it's just not how they want to interact energetically with their audience, with the world in general.
Emily Schickli (07:51)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (08:06)
And I do really love, because I too am a rebel. I'm the youngest of eight kids. I live for rebellion. I just do everything differently.
And I do appreciate knowing the rules before you break them and in some ways respecting them. Like I respect the hell out of a long page or a long format sales page. That's right. And I get the UX copy and I get the path. But also thinking about the fact of how does this sit with you, with your business, with your audience. And the place that I've landed on in the last year or so is deep seated clarity.
Emily Schickli (08:18)
Totally.
Thank
Hmm.
Laura Kendrick (08:45)
and that you need to be grounded in that. And that it's that that enables you to be able to break these rules and move through this space with intentionality and intuition. Like I love that you're doing that, changing the alt text in a different way because it's gonna do something for you that it's not like other people who aren't doing it, who aren't feeling that, they're not gonna be
08:48 The Importance of Intuition in Business
Emily Schickli (08:48)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (09:14)
shifting things in that way.
Emily Schickli (09:16)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you're a fellow rebel. Love it. Yeah. And I love what you're speaking to. know, mean, like, life's rules are made up. So why don't we write our own? And yeah. And like...
Laura Kendrick (09:27)
Mm-hmm. Right? you were like, do you want to open up Pandora's box right now of like actually talking
about like how much like our language and stuff affects the way we think and we don't even realize it and all like where all the crappy rules come from that? What was one? We don't have to fully open up Pandora's box, but the ⁓ it's a grammar rule. And I want to say like why you can't start a sentence with the word.
Emily Schickli (09:40)
Pass.
You
Laura Kendrick (09:56)
And I think, I think that was the one. It literally comes from one teacher in England like 150 years ago just annoyed by it. So he made the rule and it eventually just like grabbed on and it's like.
Emily Schickli (09:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Like it's all made up. It's all made up. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I also think to your point, it's helpful to know the rules, right? Creativity loves constraints. And so when we understand what the constraints are, we can then allow them to mix with our own inner wisdom and then create something that is both effective and uniquely ours. And I think that's the ultimate goal, right? And so
Laura Kendrick (10:09)
Yes!
Mm.
Yes. Yes.
Emily Schickli (10:36)
Yeah, and I think the sad part for me, and one of my favorite things to help people with is like, we've forgotten how to have that clarity that you're speaking to, how to actually get to that felt sense and that deeper connection with our core essence, with our intuition, with like who we really are, right? And I know like, so my business is now seven and a half years old. And I could say that at least,
Laura Kendrick (10:46)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Schickli (11:05)
60 % of that I felt unclear, but thinking that I wanted to be clear and reading all the things about how to find my clarity and, you know, express, yeah, exactly. like hiring all the people to, okay, you tell me about what I do, right? Or you tell me how to convey my brand, right? Just this like outsourcing of my own truth and my own power. And then when I went through my shamanism training, which
Laura Kendrick (11:15)
You're outsourcing it. Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Emily Schickli (11:35)
if people aren't familiar with shamanism, it's basically a direct access to spirit and creating altered states of consciousness. And the form that I learned it in was using your body to do that. So no like outside substances, you know what I'm getting at here, but like really like connecting with your own truth in your own human vessel so that you can actually make better decisions that are aligned with like
11:48 Embodiment Practices and Authenticity
Laura Kendrick (11:48)Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
⁓ Yeah.
Emily Schickli (12:05)
your truth as opposed to just asking everyone their opinion.
Laura Kendrick (12:10)
And the wild thing, too, is that that is at the heart of embodiment practices, of manifestation practices, of so many things that this is where it is all coming from. What is your individual truth? What is your authenticity? And then running with that. And that is definitely something we have lost in this era of time. I don't know why entirely. I think there's a lot of.
Emily Schickli (12:17)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (12:38)
things I could draw the line to. But I have definitely noticed the symptoms of it, even in the circles of very powerful business owners, of people who are really good at what they do. And I see them constantly throwing spaghetti at the wall, constantly asking this of like, what do I need? What is the next right move for me? And the whole time, it's like, no, you can't.
Emily Schickli (12:51)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (13:06)
Other people aren't going to be able to give you that answer. You have to find that internally and then run with it. And this culture in the online space that has been created where I swear to God, every time you take a course about building a course or doing something, it's like, you need to create a framework. I don't need a fucking framework. I'm fine. None of my people need a framework. They're good. From me, mean, they might want a framework. And if your brain works that way,
Emily Schickli (13:08)
Yeah.
you
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (13:35)
That's fine. But that doesn't resonate with me. And the idea of the million and one frameworks that I've taken in by consuming other people's methodologies and things, it gets muddied. And it muddies our own path forward. And it's not that the information isn't good. It is. We both had to learn conversion copywriting. We didn't just inherently get this from source and God and all the things.
Emily Schickli (13:36)
You
Yeah.
Okay.
Right.
Laura Kendrick (14:04)
to sit down and learn these tactics. And
great, wonderful. I'm glad there's people out there to teach it to me. But also, now that I know them, I can mold them and make them work for me and for my clients and for my people. And I think that's where we're kind of missing the step. We've just gotten into the muscles of Atrophied. And now it's just, OK, I just want the next course to be the silver bullet. And it's like,
Emily Schickli (14:13)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Laura Kendrick (14:32)
There is no silver bullet, you're your silver bullet.
Emily Schickli (14:35)
Yep, yep, totally. And I think like the way that I think of conversion copywriting tactics is it's like learning a language, right? So just like when you first learned to speak back in the day, you would learn the alphabet and you're like, the letters go in this order, right? I can't just suddenly put them in a different order, but then once we could form full sentences, the words that we choose are our own, right? And so it's like this idea of like, once you
14:44 Finding Clarity Through Action
Laura Kendrick (14:44)
Yeah.
Emily Schickli (15:04)
become fluent in the tactics that you need, then you can actually write the novel theoretically in metaphor, right? You know, so yeah, or create your own words. Why not? I mean, just look at Gen Z. They're doing all kinds of, all kinds of things with words these days, which is amazing and terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. All at once. Yeah. And it's funny too, because
Laura Kendrick (15:12)
Right. Or create your own words. mean, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (15:34)
I think, you when people have this question, well, okay, well, how, right? How do I actually connect to that intuition or that core essence? I actually use language as a metaphor because our intuition is another form of language. And when we are so outwardly focused to your point, right? Absorbing the frameworks and the whatnot from everybody else, we actually aren't present.
Laura Kendrick (15:39)
Mmm.
Emily Schickli (16:01)
in our own body's wisdom so that we can actually hear what's happening inside because it's intuition, right? It's not extuition. It's not outside. It's inside. So if we get quiet enough, we can actually hear those intuitive knowings, those whispers, those insights, but we've just forgotten how to interpret that as a language. And there are...
Laura Kendrick (16:14)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
for sure.
Emily Schickli (16:29)
a couple of different languages that our intuition can speak to us through. And I actually, I talk more about this in the free resource that folks can snag from the summit. So get that clarity compass journal. Yes. It has a quiz cause he doesn't love quizzes and a bunch of amazing stuff. So there are these four or five intuitive styles and we all fall into at least one bucket.
Laura Kendrick (16:40)
I'm excited to snag it.
Emily Schickli (16:58)
So do you feel your intuition in your body? if you've, like think back to the last time you made a buying decision, right? Did you feel like this like gut response, like, ooh, yeah, or like, uh-uh, not that, right? That's gonna be clear sentience or like sensing, physical sensing. And if you say,
Laura Kendrick (17:16)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Schickli (17:26)
receive information through visuals, your intuition speaks to you through visuals, like a flash image in your mind, a mental picture, or you're driving down the freeway and you see a billboard and you're like, that's a sign for me, right? That's an example of that. We also have, and that's clairvoyance, which doesn't just mean psychic, it means like receiving images. And then we have, yeah, and then we have claircognizance, which is...
17:49 Understanding Intuitive Styles
Laura Kendrick (17:49)
Hmm. Interesting.
Emily Schickli (17:55)
how you receive information through thoughts. So like if you've had a shower moment or like a lightning bolt of understanding, right? Yeah, totally. And then the last one is through hearing. So like inner hearing, not the inner critic, but just hearing insights through your own voice internally, or maybe you hear a song in the radio and it like speaks to you, right? And so these are the four kind of most common ways that our intuition shows up.
Laura Kendrick (17:58)
Hmm.
yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (18:22)
But again, if we're so focused on something that's stressing us out or trying to absorb the frameworks or do what so-and-so says to do, we're not going to receive those signals. Right. And so the key is to start to build a practice of tuning into what your primary style is so that you can actually learn the language of yourself, become fluent in it, and then use that.
Laura Kendrick (18:33)
Right.
Emily Schickli (18:51)
to connect more deeply with that core magic, right? That you're trying to translate into your website.
Laura Kendrick (18:57)
I just, yeah. my God. Let's do that.
Emily Schickli (18:59)
Right?
Right?
Laura Kendrick (19:03)
But it's such a, for some people, they're going to think of this as like, this is such a leap, but it's not. Because your business is an extension of you. And though I'm a firm believer that there does need to be a separation between you and your business, but if you are the founder, it's a part of you. And you are reflected inherently in the business. And yes, there can be separations that can be made. Like, yes, you can actively untangle yourself from it and...
Emily Schickli (19:10)
Mm-hmm.
Totally.
Laura Kendrick (19:32)
sell it off, of course, and it will evolve into something different. But if you're sitting here thinking about what needs to be on my website, like, yes, the two of us could definitely sit somebody down and be like, OK, if you said this this way, would land a little bit harder on the person's eyeballs and ears that you want to land on. But if it doesn't represent your intentions and what you want, this is what's going to happen is you're going to have things like your messaging is going to be off.
Like the words that we're hearing out in the marketing space of your message is off, your copy's not landing, there's not enough personality. Like all of these, or the positioning is off, all of these pieces are symptoms of not heading in the right direction, not being into, and the right direction for you, not that somebody else is dictating to you. So I am so deeply in love with this conversation.
Emily Schickli (20:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Me too. I know. I'm like, I could just talk to you for an hour about this. Yeah. And, and I think like, to your point with the energy, with the emotion and the energy and the kind of feeling of who you truly are, not translating the page, I think there's also this element of like, where does the original seed come from?
20:52 Creating a Business That Resonates
Laura Kendrick (20:52)
Mmm.
Emily Schickli (20:53)
Right? So like, is the original seed, meaning the idea, the thought, the intention, the emotion that you're trying to convey or the energy or the result, does that come from following the best copywriting techniques to answer objections on your sales page? Or does that come from like your true authentic desire and unique viewpoint of how you want to help people and how you actually want to show up?
Like, are you adding bonuses just because you need to when it really energetically that might actually drain you? Right. And I think like, yeah, so often we make decisions on, ⁓ from the point of view of like, well, I just need more sales as opposed to, who do I actually want to work with? And how do I actually want that to feel in my body? Cause even if you're not super woo, you're carrying your clients around. You know?
Laura Kendrick (21:25)
Yes. Yes.
right?
For sure. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (21:47)
Yeah, their
Laura Kendrick (21:47)
Yeah.
Emily Schickli (21:47)
energy is like in your field unless you know how to protect your energy and clear your field, which we could talk about, but yeah.
Laura Kendrick (21:53)
And that comes,
mean, yeah, I wanna talk about that, but also the, all day. But that comes from even think, mean, outside of the woo words that you and I resonate with, it comes to the simple piece that we all as business owners resonate with, that is when you work with somebody who sucks, when you have that client that is just draining the ever lovin' lifeblood out of you.
Emily Schickli (21:58)
We'll do it.
Laura Kendrick (22:21)
who you just are dreading having to pick up the phone and get on a call with, that's misalignment. mean, in the more kind of common vernacular, that's what it is when you're calling in the wrong people, if you will, in the marketing space. When your clients, they just suck. Like that's you out of alignment. That's you not.
Emily Schickli (22:28)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Laura Kendrick (22:47)
saying the right things or positioning yourself in the right way or having the right offer that works for you and for that you're not having the right people come to you and nobody can tell you who the right people are. Like for years I had people like coaches and things who would say like well what's your niche and my answer was always people who don't suck. Like that's that's my answer. I don't have a better answer for you because I don't mind working with men.
Emily Schickli (23:08)
I'm
Laura Kendrick (23:14)
I don't work with them as often. Actually, that's funny. This year, almost all my clients have been men. That's weird. ⁓ I have largely worked with women. I like working with women. I have also worked with solopreneurs. And for a long time, I was like, I like the kind of woo women solopreneurs. This year, I'm working with men with big teams and tech spaces. Like, what the ever love in Fox? But also, I'm working with these particular teams. It does not mean that I'm going to move my ass to Silicon Valley.
Emily Schickli (23:18)
This
Okay. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (23:42)
and stand in front of Apple with a sign that's like, please hire me. Like that's not happening. ⁓ But it's because this is what's in alignment with what's happening with me right now. And if we can ground down into these things, then I feel like that answer of who do you work with is actually clear enough for you to be able to move forward of like, I just work with people.
Emily Schickli (23:45)
you
Mm-hmm.
23:53 The Power of Alignment in Client Relationships
Yeah, yeah, totally. And then I think the key underneath that is if you think of it from ⁓ like a human perspective, I just work with people who I like, right? What that's underneath is the people who understand you, right? And the people who value what your unique sauce is and the people who actually need and will leverage what you teach them.
Laura Kendrick (24:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Emily Schickli (24:36)
And so if you're writing copy from the perspective of like, I need to sell this thing, that's not coming through. And you're just going to get people who just want to buy the thing. You're not going to get the people who get you and would choose you specifically over another business owners that's doing the same thing. And then you're going to have that client that's just like, okay, well, I just want to achieve whatever the goal is based on your business and not like do the deeper work of.
Laura Kendrick (24:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Schickli (25:07)
of really understanding what you're offering and being here for it. You know, that's how you get the raving fans. It's like when you're working with people you like and those people are also in alignment with what you're offering.
Laura Kendrick (25:21)
Yeah. that really jabs at the heart of sometimes the expectations that are put on us as business owners of these are the benchmarks and goals we should be hitting. They are sometimes out of alignment with you and your business. I know people who have never had an Instagram page or an email list in their lives who have seven figure businesses that run entirely on referrals. I also know people who have
Emily Schickli (25:37)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (25:49)
10,000 people emails. Actually, I know somebody who's got, think it was, I want to say it was close to 30,000 people on the email. And they were making good money, but most of the people on there were not actually their clients. The list was dead. And that's not beneficial, but also that was somebody who was rolling in low ticket offers. And that's what made their heart sing versus somebody else who works deeply with their clients. You don't need.
Emily Schickli (26:02)
Mm.
Laura Kendrick (26:19)
27 million people on your email list. You don't need 30,000 followers on Instagram. You just need a couple of people who light you up and give you the business that you want. Like, you can have a glorious, fabulous micro business that takes care of you, your family, your soul, and your clients. And you don't have to have all these check boxes along the way. You can have exactly what you want, and you can build the perfect business.
Emily Schickli (26:42)
Mm-hmm.
26:49 Trusting Your Own Path
Laura Kendrick (26:49)
that way.
Emily Schickli (26:51)
100%. Yeah, and I think a lot of people I've talked to who are like more in early stages of business and also like something I've experienced is like, well, that's a lot of pressure. How do I find the thing that does work for me? And I think it comes down to like your own natural learning tendencies. I mean, to break home the education box, you know? But thinking about like, you know,
Laura Kendrick (27:12)
Mm-hmm.
Emily Schickli (27:19)
your point what platforms do you actually like to spend time on? You know and like what types of offer delivery do you actually enjoy and how can you fully express the thing that lights you up in the channel that's actually going to convey that? And I think a lot of people will like look to everybody else like well I want a business like that person or I want to have
Laura Kendrick (27:44)
Yes.
Emily Schickli (27:45)
You know, like I want to be the person with the niche audience, but how do I do that? And I think again, it's just right. Exactly. It's just going to the outsourcing piece. So I think the more that we can, a, give ourselves permission to create the business that we actually want rather than just like have been conditioned from all of the stories and the overnight success nonsense out there. Right. And B actually connect to ourselves first. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (27:49)
You're outsourcing it again. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Emily Schickli (28:14)
and get curious about what actually we want and what lights us up, then we can actually create that, right? Yeah. And your intuition, I believe anyway, is a big part of that. And yeah, right? And like getting into your body again, versus just in the mental field.
Laura Kendrick (28:22)
Yes, yes.
I do too. I agree.
Yeah, I actually built a whole offer around this and I wasn't using the exact same language, but it was, it's all at the heart of it is building clarity and it's using some of those traditional copy tools to find it. But it is about digging through all this crap to root back down into your own intuition. Because what I found in my own business and in my client's business is when these pieces are in place and this clarity is in place.
Emily Schickli (28:48)
Nice.
Laura Kendrick (29:02)
that it becomes the North Star, where you just know. You don't have to ask people, ⁓ do you think I should be on this podcast? Do you think, like, where should I price my offer? Do you think I should build this offer? Do you think I should, you know, like, do this and that and that? And it's like, no. Your answer is you don't have to ask those things. In fact, I've spent the past year now in this amazing group of women in this. ⁓ And it's funny because.
Emily Schickli (29:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (29:30)
we'll get on calls where there will be, in essence, kind of like self-done hot seats, if you will. But it's community-based. And every time when they're like, Lord, do you have anything? I'm like, no, I don't. Because I don't feel like I don't have any questions for them. Like, I love their energy. I love being in this space. I love it when somebody else has a problem. And I can help them sort through it or work it out. But my clarity is so strong right now that I don't, I'm good.
29:58 Practical Exercise for Clarity
Emily Schickli (29:58)
Yes, yes, yeah, I was reflecting on this with a friend the other day that trust is not in the mind, it's a state of being and a state of doing. So if we're actually in trust, then we're just trusting that we're making the right decisions and we're doing the things that just naturally follow that. the other day I was decluttering, as we do.
Laura Kendrick (30:09)
Mm. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (30:27)
And I was going through some old journals of mine from like 2019, 2020, 2021. And I saw, you know, some beautiful Oracle card spreads and like some fun reflections. But ultimately I was asking myself the same damn question, which was like, how can I be successful in my business? What, you know, what thing to do to be successful, right? How can I, you what is success? Like all of these variants of the same question.
Laura Kendrick (30:46)
Mm.
Emily Schickli (30:56)
And so it was like, I was trying to get into the, the state of trusting, but because I continually was asking the same question, I was recreating the problem of not being in a state of trust and thereby, right. Even outs, you know, outsourcing my power to myself where I'm like, I must be confused because it's not there tomorrow, you know? And I think that we do this all the time where we're
Laura Kendrick (31:03)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily Schickli (31:24)
constantly like second guessing ourselves and not just being in that state of I'm trusting that I'm already there. I'm already in the path. And if I just continue to experiment and be open and listen to myself, then that clarity is going to come. Cause I think oftentimes we think clarity predates being able to do the thing, but oftentimes clarity comes from taking the action.
Laura Kendrick (31:34)
Yeah.
⁓ There's the mic drop right there for sure for sure.
Emily Schickli (31:59)
So like I mentioned, there are these four intuitive styles, right? One of the most common styles that I find people have because just from
organic data that I've collected from doing hundreds of readings for people is the sensing style. like body, that like gut reaction of like, Ooh, this is a yes or like, no way. is a no. So I was thinking it'd be fun to teach a little practice of how to get clear on your yes and your no. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So it's very simple. So if you're listening and you're driving, maybe do this later.
32:30 Conclusion and Resources
Laura Kendrick (32:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (32:40)
Basically, you'll kind of take a couple deep breaths. So take a big breath in, deep breath out.
Another big breath in, filling your body in the chair beneath you. can even shake out your hands. Flutter your lips. Good. And then bring into your body the energy of yes. So you can think of something you really love, maybe something delicious to eat, and then go ahead and say yes out loud on repeat and notice what happens in your body.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And just feel that energy of yes. Amazing.
So now we're gonna do the opposite. So bring it to mind and into your body the understanding of no. So the energy of no, you can cross your arms, you can make a frown, you can think of something really gross, and then just say no on repeat, preferably out loud. No, no, no, no, no. And just see what happens in your body.
So this is muscle testing. It's an ancient practice. but it comes from traditional Chinese medicine and I love it. So now when you have this clarity of like, what's a yes for you and that feels in your body and what's a no for you and how that feels in your body, then you can ask yourself those yes or no questions when you go to actually build your website or create your offer or like, am I going to be on that podcast or?
Do I want to hire Laura to help me write my copy? You know, check in. Yes or no?
Laura Kendrick (34:17)
Hard, no, no, I'm just kidding.
I love that.
And it's actually something that probably a lot of people have experienced in the gratitude practice, that you root down into that feeling, that actual feeling of being grateful for something. And you're able to take that out into your world more and notice it, which I love. So good. So good. ⁓ Emily, where can people find you?
Emily Schickli (34:36)
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, so people can find me by getting the Clarity Compass journal. It'll take you on a lovely adventure to help you connect with your intuition more deeply. I have some fun daily email tips that go with that, so definitely get that. Totally free as a gift. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (34:57)
Can I like also, by the way, also
my favorite lead magnet of mine is also called the Clarity Compass. I swear to God.
Emily Schickli (35:04)
Is it really? No way.
What? That's like a match. That's, that's wow. Wow. What a fun synchronicity. Well, we'll have to swap clarity compasses and see what happens. my God. That's so good. ⁓ yeah. And then, you know, if people want to continue working with me, my program, the Compass Club, Compass theme.
Laura Kendrick (35:10)
dying right now. This is so funny.
⁓ my god, yes.
I love it. ⁓
Emily Schickli (35:31)
It's all about helping you peacefully accomplish your number one life goal in six months or less without burning out. And it's really that yummy fusion of science back strategies with spiritual practices. So helps you regain your time and energy, actually get that nice juicy clarity that we're talking about today and regulate your nervous system so that you can enjoy the success that you create rather than just collapse.
Laura Kendrick (35:57)
Yeah, which by the way, I mean, we're so over time, but I don't care. ⁓ This is going to be the one that's like. ⁓
Emily Schickli (36:01)
you
you
Laura Kendrick (36:06)
It's funny though that you say that. And Mindy, who's also part of this summit, talks about similar things, different but similar. So you guys are going to be a nice pairing together of digging through not being able to hold the positive. And there's an interesting fact that people who win lottery, that there's a very, very small percentage of people who can actually hold on to it. And a huge part of that has to do with like,
Emily Schickli (36:17)
Awesome.
and who.
Laura Kendrick (36:36)
You are not energetically prepared for this level of quote unquote success and like holding this huge quantity of money that you have never in your life even come close to that usually within three years they are actually financially worse off than they were before, which is one of many reasons I don't buy lottery tickets. anyways. Yeah.
Emily Schickli (36:54)
so wild.
100 %
Don't buy a lottery ticket folks, just write your website with Laura and I'll help you feel good about it. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (37:03)
Right? Yes, there you go. I love it. It's plant. my gosh. Well, thank you so much for being here, Emily. This was so good.
Emily Schickli (37:13)
It's absolute pleasure. So fun to chat with you.
Access Is a Growth Strategy.
Learn why inclusive design boosts UX, trust, and rankings—and how to bake it in without a rebrand or dev team.
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Erin Perkins is the CEO of Mabely Q and a deafblind accessibility educator. With limited vision and hearing (she uses a cochlear implant and hearing aid), Erin brings lived experience to her work. After years of collaborating with coaches and creative entrepreneurs, she realized how little most people understood about accessibility—especially digital accessibility. Today, she helps businesses make their content and platforms more inclusive to build trust, increase engagement, and drive retention. Erin believes accessibility isn’t a checkbox—it’s a business growth strategy.
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Creating an Accessible Customer Journey
Grab it here! 👈This session will arm you with the tools and knowledge to master accessible customer journeys. I'll show you how to create an inclusive digital experience via social media, catering to a diverse user base and extending your reach. This approach will drive substantial growth in your bottom line.
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00:00 Introduction to Erin Perkins
Laura Kendrick (00:01)
⁓ Erin, Erin, Erin, Erin, I'm really happy you're here and I'm really happy you're here to talk about this. So before we dive in, please tell all the people who don't know who you are, but absolutely should know who you are, a little bit about you.
Erin (00:19)
being like why do people not know me like how dare they anyway I'm Erin Perkins and I am the founder of MableyQ I am deafblind I identify that but I know this is very confusing you're like but you're talking you look like you can see you look like you can hear all the all things are true
I wear hearing aids and cochlear implants so that is my tool that helps me here. I rely on closed captioning to help me understand because I don't read lips just no And my vision, I have about 40 to 50 degrees central vision so most...
Normal people, able-bodied people have 180 so that's the big difference. So if I'm walking around your neighborhood and you wave to me and I don't see you, I promise you I'm not being rude. My neighbor, that just happened last week by the way. I'm like I promise you I'm not rude. I just can't hear you or see you. Like ugh.
Laura Kendrick (01:27)
no.
Erin (01:36)
So with that, I teach businesses how to build accessibility into their business because it's not just about wheelchair and websites. It's about actually
01:51 Understanding Accessibility
making sure every aspect of your business is accessible which means it's your business as a whole, your podcast, your event, online in person, your email, your website, and your branding as well. All those things should be accessible and people freak out because that sounds hard. I promise you I make it easy.
Laura Kendrick (02:12)
I... I... yeah.
Yeah, and it's not as hard as it sounds. And it also helps. I think that's the other thing. People don't necessarily recognize that, adding accessibility makes it so that people who actually can't hear something can take in your content and interact with you. But also, it makes it for people who process differently to be able to interact with your content. It makes it so that
Erin (02:32)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (02:46)
all the little robots that are streaming through the internet trying to figure things out can figure out your content a little bit easier. It is, it has such a breadth to it that is helpful for so many things, not only being thoughtful of other people's experiences, but it also selfishly helps your business too, which is something that I think that people don't necessarily internalize. I don't think they internalize a lot of it because so many
Erin (03:02)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (03:14)
of us. I mean, this is the human condition, not like you're being a jerk, that we are all, you know, focused on our own experience. So we're just kind of dug into the, well, this is how the world is through my eyes. This is how it is.
Erin (03:27)
Right and a lot of us do think that and that's like one of the things is like I get that people don't think about this but the reality is people are more likely to be disabled than anything else in your life whether it's temporary or permanent you
Probably won't be disabled if you're not, you're just like one lucky person. So with that said, ⁓ a lot of companies, especially in the tech world, typically build without accessibility in mind. And it makes me bonker because why? Riverside, this platform we're on, they don't have built-in caption.
Laura Kendrick (04:09)
sure.
Erin (04:17)
No, I don't think so. I don't see anywhere. I've always been on the user side. Yes, they don't have captions, but luckily the Chrome extension that I use has captions so it makes it easy for me. So don't have to be like, can we please go to Zoom? Because I know not everyone likes Zoom.
Laura Kendrick (04:36)
Yeah.
And the thing that is interesting about all of this too is that when you start to think about accessibility, it becomes, totally just lost my.
You said something that was so good.
Erin (04:54)
daughter don't tend to build with accessibility in mind. That's like really the last thing I'd say.
Laura Kendrick (05:02)
that was it.
I got it. It came back. With the idea that people don't tend to build with accessibility in mind, it actually makes it so that you stand out. Like I remember, this was years ago now, ⁓ one of my first businesses was in the pregnancy and birth space. And there was a training that I did with somebody who is teaching about the trans experience.
Erin (05:31)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (05:32)
and the trans experience in birth. And the interesting thing that came out of that, like so many interesting things came out of that, but one little teeny tiny tidbit that I ran with and was like, this is amazing, is this idea that if you are open to serving a group of people who are underserved and respecting them and making room for them, and you show even the slightest sign of being able to do that.
they're going to be appreciative and know that this is a place where they can land. And so it makes that, like it makes you stand out. And I know I'm like, the accessibility thing is so important when it comes to who you're actually serving, but on the other side of it, because in some way we're all selfish, there are these like selfish reasons to do it as well, that it will help drive your business to have these things in place. Not only are you being
05:58 The Importance of Accessibility in Business
Erin (06:17)
Yeah.
Right.
Laura Kendrick (06:26)
a good human, but it's gonna help move the needle for you as well.
Erin (06:32)
I mean I do this purely because I don't want to be left behind. That is like one of my biggest like true honest to God fears is being left behind because I don't have access to everything. And like it is really true because
You know in today's world if you are serving the underserved they're more likely to tell their friends, family, like their peers. They're going to tell them like hey you want to shop at this place because they really do care. Little things like that. So that's like why I try to teach people like to build it in from the bottom up because it's actually going to cost you
a lot less money because you're doing it thoughtfully and you're being more strategic. I will say that I'm aware it's very difficult to do for most two reasons. One is you're only one person. If you're the only person working on your business, it's hard.
And that's why I try to teach little things that you can just easily integrate that are not complicated. And two, everything's moving so fast that you feel like you just want to create exactly what you want to create. And then that's where accessibility falls out of place.
Laura Kendrick (08:00)
Yeah. I mean, yeah, like that's true across the board. And well, and something that you have said to me, and I've heard other people who identify as deaf have said as well, that it's an interesting thing to stop and think about for somebody who is hearing that English is not your first language. like, so processing is different. And if you can ground into the basic
Erin (08:22)
No, it's not.
Laura Kendrick (08:29)
experience as an American is different for somebody who was not born with their full hearing. I mean, it's just wild to step into. Just wild. All right. On that note, because like I'm just leaving us hanging now.
Erin (08:34)
Yeah.
Sorry people, but I will say I'm an open book. If you really want to know more about me, just reach out to me.
Laura Kendrick (08:48)
That's how I roll.
I love it. But I want to like dive in a little bit into it I know like I was a teacher by trade. So being in graduate school to be a teacher, these things are talked about. You're talking about how people process. You're talking about supporting all different kinds of learners and people with different experiences. So when you and I met, this was I this was not new to me, though. Certainly some of the things you teach are were new to me, but it was like, yeah, that makes total sense.
Erin (09:17)
Bye.
Laura Kendrick (09:23)
But for those of us who did not go through a master's program in education, ⁓ can you talk a little bit about what you mean by accessibility?
Erin (09:32)
The feels is loaded.
Laura Kendrick (09:34)
⁓ it is. I mean, you don't have to.
That's a for the people who don't know. That's actually a very big question with a whole breadth of answers. But.
Erin (09:44)
Yeah, and everyone
actually has different perspectives of what accessibility means. So like, to me, there two different forms of accessibility. have accessibility as in life, having, being able to access things, places, environments in a way that is the most compatible with how you interact with the world.
09:48 Digital Accessibility Explained
Laura Kendrick (09:48)Ooh, interesting.
Erin (10:13)
And then there's digital accessibility, which is something that is more relatively new, kind of. But everything is web-based, and a lot of people will make the assumption that...
people with disabilities, especially the blind people. One, most blind people do not have zero vision. They might have some kind of vision, but they still need tools to help them access it. They love using the internet. The internet helps them.
⁓ People with physical disabilities might not be able to go out in the world as easily because everything takes time. The web, internet is their access point.
and they might have tools that help them if they don't have like hand mobility they might use something else that helps them navigate through. All those things are when it comes to digital accessibility is being able to access anything that is everything is web based that is easy for them.
Laura Kendrick (11:29)
Mm-hmm.
Erin (11:30)
Like, in a way that they can consume and learn and interact with people in a way that works for them.
Laura Kendrick (11:39)
Yeah. there's a lot of, I mean, I've sat through a training from Erin that was really cool thinking about your branding and making that accessible and where it's, and it goes beyond just for people who have a hard time seeing and it goes to everything. Like, is this readable? I think about it a lot, actually in our little village there, we have to drive through the little like village, it's square, but it's really triangle. And they will put ⁓ signs up.
Erin (12:05)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (12:09)
and of big events coming up. And every once in a while, it's just, you're like, who made that? Because I see just fine and I have no idea what that sign says. It's like, ⁓ that person needs a lesson in sign making for like big cars going by. it, thinking about the colors is one thing. I also think about ⁓ like when you and I first met, we talked about SEO and the images.
Erin (12:10)
Mm-hmm.
Readability.
Laura Kendrick (12:37)
like putting the alt text in the images. And though, yes, that helps with your SEO, that helps with screen readers, people who can't see, and they're using a screen reader to tell them what is on the screen. That's what it's, that's a big part of why it's there.
Erin (12:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think for the longest time because that wasn't necessarily taught so people who are teaching this are like battling against that SEO and you know for a long time I know the alt text box people kept saying keywords stuff it but all the keywords please don't do that or I will hate you forever like just no
Go back and fix all of those things. And there is an amazing custom GPT that is called G-Node Alt-Text that you can just upload your picture and it spit it out for you and you can like, it to your personal preference to keep your style of branding. It's awesome. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
13:43 Practical Tips for Accessibility
Laura Kendrick (13:43)
Yeah. my gosh, we're gonna have to link to that for sure. Yeah, that's cool.
I didn't know that. And that helps a lot. Cause I get caught on the alt text things. Because I sit in the world of the in between where I know how valuable it is to people who need it. But I also know how valuable it is to SEO. it's like, how do you, and sometimes it's like, this is a really stupid picture. Like how do I describe this? And then also.
Erin (14:07)
I know it's like you're trying to figure out the context and art style. This is really interesting because like there are people in the deafblind world that literally want the whole image to be explained. Like every single detail.
And I'm just like, no, I don't want to like have to understand that information. For example, like right now in this video, it will ask you to, they will ask you to describe the curtain, what you're wearing, how your hair is, the plant behind me. There's a blanket with stuff all over. There's a blue wall, each picture, like no. I'm like, that is way too far. You know what?
What is the area of information overload? What we do, if you want to make sure they feel included, describe what is really essential to the whole thing. If you, like for me, we would both be identifying as like, both white women, we both, ironically, we're both wearing white tops. And like we have our hair up in a messy bun, like, you know.
Laura Kendrick (15:02)
Mm-hmm.
Erin (15:26)
That's all people need to know. They don't need to know, I don't think you need to know that much more. yeah, my Erin background is way cooler than Laura's, but that's okay.
Laura Kendrick (15:28)
Mm-hmm.
It absolutely is.
Oh my gosh. is, so here's something that's been floating through my head lately, because I've been seeing more and more of it is people and it's really stemming because I finally saw it come through on a friend of mine who's got a sub stack, recorded the audio on it and put it at the top of the sub stack. And I've seen that in a couple of people's emails as well, that they're sending out emails and they're also doing an audio recording of the email and putting that on the top for people who want to listen.
Erin (16:05)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (16:09)
which that is a really fascinating, like new trend that I'm seeing. And it might not be new to you, but it's new to me in accessibility as well. Talk to me a little bit about that, about adding kind of audio, because I have traditionally seen where people will put, ⁓ you know, you have your... Sweets, we're recording something. You gotta go.
Erin (16:24)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (16:31)
No, you have to go. I'm in the middle of recording something. You gotta go, sweets. Close the door.
Erin (16:36)
edit this part.
Laura Kendrick (16:36)
not managing today.
That's the first time that has happened in any of some of things. Okay. ⁓
Erin (16:46)
We need to go back. ⁓ the audio in email.
Laura Kendrick (16:52)
Yes. OK. So the adding audio pieces might not be new to you, but it is new in my little world. And though I've seen it, of course, for a long, long time with captions and videos and ⁓ people recommending having transcripts underneath videos and audio pieces so that people who would prefer to read or need to read can do that, but having the audio pieces added to the reading
That is new on my radar. Tell me a little bit more about like how, where you're seeing that.
17:25 Emerging Trends in Accessibility
Erin (17:25)
Yeah, I definitely think that. mean, I think because podcasts are so popular and then private podcasts as well. So I feel like people are definitely doing that more. I think the reason why people are doing the recording is they might actually process things better as they verbal. And so the people who are actually creating the audio recording, it might be easier for them to speak their thoughts out and then clean it up in the email and then they're like let's just pair these two together. That wouldn't work for me but also if you've heard how a screen reader talks it's awful. Right so I feel like I would want to hear other people's voices rather than having a screen reader tell me.
Laura Kendrick (18:02)
Interesting. It's awful. Yeah, what's, ⁓ isn't it like...
Isn't it like?
Who's that famous physicist who had the computerized voice for years?
Erin (18:26)
⁓ to... Stephen Hawking?
Laura Kendrick (18:28)
Yeah, that's gonna annoy me. Yes, isn't it? Aren't they like kind of like that? Like the Stephen Hawking? Yeah.
Erin (18:32)
Yeah, I mean, you would think technology would be way better these days. Come on now. Don't they want to hear different voices?
Laura Kendrick (18:45)
One would think but I read somewhere that he chose to keep that voice like even as it it evolved in time that he could have updated it and he chose not to because that just became you know quote-unquote his voice No, no, it's interesting. It's interesting. Okay, so what? Where should people start in your opinion when they're thinking about accessibility on their websites?
Erin (18:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, that'll it then.
you're header.
Well, I was going to say you're a brand first but sometimes I feel like, oh God, I'm going to make you rebrand. But when we did the workshop, when you were on my workshop, did I do everything possible to ensure that you would not have to rebrand?
Laura Kendrick (19:30)
Yeah, and it was, think in that way, there's the thoughts of the colors. if you, like for instance, I have a white, a brown and well, I use black too, and a green and it just thinking about some of those colors don't play off each other as well. Like a clearly black and brown, can't, well, and I never would have anyways, cause that's like easy to never read anything, but it's.
Erin (19:52)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (19:57)
It's as simple as thinking like which ones are you pairing together and making sure that they play off each other correctly and that people can actually see them. So yeah, I don't think it's necessarily you have to rebrand, but that is a good, I like that to stop and just think. sometimes that's the simple bit, stop and think and just kind of pause for a sec.
Erin (20:00)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not telling you
to go spend $6,000 on a rebrand. Trust me, I want to save you as much money as possible. So, like, I usually would help you take a look at your brand color and let you know, all right, these are the color combinations you can use and keep that on hand and build out your website. So the color is definitely number one. And then number two is your header.
You should only have one heading one. And you have more than that? That's a problem. And I will tell you, I looked at the back end of many websites and I just cry Cause I'm like, heading one, there should only be one heading one. The heading one basically is like the title of the book.
Laura Kendrick (20:51)
Mm-hmm.
interesting.
21:16 Final Thoughts and Resources
Erin (21:16)
is your thing, is the title of the book for that whole page. Your Heading 2 are considered your chapters. And then your Heading 3 and Heading 4 are supportive of your chapters. I'm taking everybody back to grade school. If we think about the outline process, you know, with the Roman numerals, that kind of thing. You gotta think in that way.
Laura Kendrick (21:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah,
Yeah. And how does that affect accessibility if somebody has too many H1s?
Erin (21:53)
If you have too many H1, well first of all, if you're not using any header, the person who lands on that website is not going to be able to quickly scan that website through with the screen. Yeah. Screen reader, it's not, it's going to force them to have to read through the whole page and that's not going to be a good experience for that person. So that's number one.
Laura Kendrick (22:04)
nor is the robot either.
Erin (22:19)
If you have too many H1, it's going to get confusing for them because they're like, you told me this was H1, you told me this was H1, what is the purpose of this page? So it's not going to give them the right information to do that. So if you do it where you have heading 1 as your page and then you have your heading 2, it's going to allow them to quickly skim and determine
Laura Kendrick (22:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Erin (22:49)
if they want to keep staying on this page.
Laura Kendrick (22:52)
So good. So good. I mean, and these are all, they're not hard things. It's, I feel like all of it builds like that where nothing, doing any of the things to move the needle in any direction is never really hard. It just takes the effort to do it and keep doing it moving forward, which is so amazing. And I'm really happy that you're out in the world doing this in the digital space because it is so needed for so many reasons.
Erin (23:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean,
don't like... If you're doing this on your own, cool. Do your test. Copy. Copy. Specifically, select out what are going to be your H1, ⁓ H2, H3, like map it out and then put it together. But if you are hiring somebody like Laura...
you are going to make sure that they know they need to highlight what are H1, H2, like every copywriter should be doing this.
Laura Kendrick (23:53)
Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, please share with the people. Where can they find you?
Erin (24:01)
So you can find me mostly on LinkedIn. So my, under my name Erin E. Perkins. ⁓ You can also find me at, on Instagram, but I'm like terrible about it right now. ⁓ At Maybellys.q. M-A-B-E-L-Y. ⁓ And you can go to my website as well. Like, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (24:31)
Well, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it.
Erin (24:34)
yet.
Definitely thank you for having me.
Surprise & Delight as a Strategy.
Use dopamine hits and nostalgia to interrupt promo fatigue and turn casual visitors into enthusiastic buyers—no heavy tech required.
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Nadine Nethery is an audience-driven copywriter turned customer experience & retention strategist for savvy online business owners who want to intentionally attract, retain and wow their dream customers.
Over the past 8+ years, Nadine has given hundreds of industry-disrupting online business owners the words to shine and the strategies to build a sustainable audience-centred business. And she’s on a mission to make mediocre brand experiences a thing of the past. -
Grab my list of 40+ perfect excuses to run your own website scavenger hunt.
-
00:00 Introduction to Unique Marketing Strategies
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
All right. Nadine, I am super excited that you are here, especially with what we are going to talk about, because this is one of the most unique things I have ever heard of. And I'm really pumped to hear all the details.
Nadine Nethery (00:17)
So good to be here Laura. It's actually one of my favorite things to talk about so how good
Laura Kendrick (00:23)
Yay. Well,
before the big reveal, as though it's not in the title. But anyways, before the big reveal, why don't you share a little bit about yourself or any of the people who don't yet know you but are about to deeply fall in love with you?
Nadine Nethery (00:30)
Yeah.
Yeah absolutely, so hi I'm Nadine. I am a copywriter turned custom experience and retention strategist. Means I still do writing for clients but I spice it up with strategies like the one I'm going to share today. So creative ways and strategic ways to ⁓ infuse you know retention.
customer experience strategies into the before and the after of the copy. So connecting all the dots, helping you engage with your audience, delight them etc. All the things.
Laura Kendrick (01:13)
I love it. Okay. So let's dive right in. Cause I am, I am dying to hear about this. So you set up a scavenger hunt on your website.
Nadine Nethery (01:18)
Hahaha
I did, I did, which was pretty much a spur of the moment thing. Let me take you back to that moment because you know, like, let me take you. Exactly. Back in November 2023. So back when it was probably, I don't know, the continuation of COVID social.
Laura Kendrick (01:26)
Okay.
Please do. I feel like, wait, is this where the, yeah, is this where the movie goes?
Nadine Nethery (01:51)
know upheaval everywhere and economic roller coaster I don't know it just came to the point of the year where I was just done and I don't know I was just really flat my audience seemed flat as well there was Black Friday happening as well so another same same inbox flooded type event and I just went you know what I can't be asked to participate in it I really can't be asked to even receive
Laura Kendrick (01:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nadine Nethery (02:19)
all the onslaught of emails so what can I do to lift myself up, know, delight my audience, I don't know, get a bit of excitement and buzz happening at the end of this shi-chow, excuse my language, of a year. Yet another one. So yeah, just had a bit of a think, which I love to do by the way, and once I start thinking things like this happen. So yeah, just decided to go, you know, I want to do something to...
Laura Kendrick (02:30)
No, no excuse needed.
02:47 The Scavenger Hunt Concept
Nadine Nethery (02:47)
lift the mood and make some sales and grow my list and do it in a creative way. So it needed to be something that was technically doable because while I do know tech tools I didn't want to ⁓ countless hours pulling things together and connecting tools and all the things. It needed to excite me and it needed to excite my audience. As I said off the back of Black Friday they just had spent a whole bunch of money potentially and just were over it. So
Somehow along the way a scavenger hunts and you know like even Easter egg hunts the concept popped up and I just looked back to my childhood like you know I'm sure you remember Easter looking for that you know Easter egg trying to your sibling to it and that little dopamine hit that came from you know finding the good egg before your brother or sister. So I mean how can I actually bring this to life in my business in a doable way and that's where
My scavenger hunt came in so being Christmas or in the lead up to Christmas I thought why don't we put together a little Christmas promotion So from the first of December to the 24th of December 2023 I elf'd myself so very on brand for me I'm a bit quirky you know if you hop over to my website you'll see it's quite colourful it's a bit out there. So I jumped into Canva and added a little Santa hat to myself.
Nadine and came up with these little graphics that I hid across my website in very strategic places hiding little you know treasures whether it's promotional offers freebies exclusive opportunities to access time with me and yeah I used that as a way to start a whole bunch of conversations and it was super fun I loved it.
my audience loved it and ⁓ yeah, I'm still buzzing and I'm actually planning my next one,
Laura Kendrick (04:48)
about this. This is
so cool and like I just I want to know like all the things. So did you share this just to your list or did you share this on socials? Did you have other people sharing it for you?
Nadine Nethery (05:00)
⁓I because I pulled it together in literally probably a space of two weeks ⁓ just ran with it so I think I shared on social media twice maybe you know like a little story talked about it got people across I had 10 affiliates at the time so I thought it's a bit different maybe people jump on it so 10 affiliates actually shared it for me as well and I was part of a visibility opportunity at the time so I thought how
Laura Kendrick (05:13)
Okay. Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (05:29)
good because I get all this traffic to my website and I'll maximise it so I made sure people knew about it as they landed on the page or on the website via clever little convert boxes that just alerted them of the scavenger hunt and so it just multiplied from there organically.
Laura Kendrick (05:43)
Okay.
So with these, gotta like, I wanna be able to see.
05:54 Execution and Engagement Strategies
Nadine Nethery (05:54)
I know right? If I could just screen drop the elf.
Laura Kendrick (05:55)
all of this. I know. So was it,
so you had multiple Nadine elves all over the place and okay and were they there the whole time or did they, was it like elf on a shelf where they actually moved around?
Nadine Nethery (06:01)
Yeah, so there was nine total.
No, they were in the same spot the whole time, which again, you know, looking back, ⁓ this different approaches you can take. ⁓ But yeah, Nine Elves in very strategic places. So I wanted to make sure people actually came across my social proof. you know, testimonials. ⁓ I also was launching a new course at the time. So I made sure it was on the course page. So people were made aware of new offers. It was... ⁓
Laura Kendrick (06:11)
Okay. Okay.
Nadine Nethery (06:39)
Where else did I hide them? Strategic places, know, about page, ⁓ places that I had been featured. So really it was not only a way to get people to engage more with my website, stay longer, have more engaged sessions, which again, signals to Google that, you know, she's the real deal. We all love that. I know, right? So it all works. Yeah, strategic. It's all working together. But yeah, so it was designed, not only.
Laura Kendrick (06:56)
Right? We're talking about SEO in this summit too. So yes, the people are going to hear the things. Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (07:09)
engage, delight etc but also strategically to ⁓ boost that impact with Google, make sales and that it did. So was super successful.
Laura Kendrick (07:21)
That's awesome. And did they like have a way of tracking it or was it just fun for them where they were like, did they win something or get something if they found them all?
Nadine Nethery (07:30)
Yeah so ⁓ each Nadine gem, Nadine elf had ⁓ a ⁓ special offer hidden behind it. So you click on click on the elf and it reveals either a discount, ⁓ it could have been a one of my nine dollar you know mini offers that I was giving away for free to again have people sample my teaching style get them into my universe and engage with my genius.
Laura Kendrick (07:40)
Okay.
Nadine Nethery (08:00)
There was freebies, there was also exclusive access to a new course I was launching as I said and then also a Voxer day with me that I was hosting in January but the only way to get a ticket to it is by you know joining the list and finding the elf. So yeah people really dug around a lot of people came back as well so they hit reply to my emails and went
Laura Kendrick (08:05)
Mm-hmm.
Finding the elf. Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (08:24)
I'm coming back, I only have like five minutes today but I've got on my list to track all of them down. again, know, work to trade, people started conversations, hit reply and ⁓ just yeah, told me how refreshing it was to have something fun rather than just that big sell.
Laura Kendrick (08:41)
Yes.
Yes. my gosh. Totally going to elf on the shelf. My website. This is so fun. OK, so now I'm like and it's funny because like most of these conversations have been these like deep dives into strategy or big things. And now I am just drilling you with because I'm like, tell me all the things.
Nadine Nethery (08:45)
Hahaha
Mmm.
Yes
08:54 Results and Impact of the Scavenger Hunt
it actually is so easy to pull off that's the good thing it's like you know you just need a good on-brand idea because it needs to fit with your brand but if you can you know pull it off it doesn't take that much to to pull off and as I said the impact um list growth like I added um over 500 people to my list via the freebies uh the Voxa Day so list growth um also digital product sales so some of those um
Laura Kendrick (09:08)
Yes!
Yes!
wow.
Nadine Nethery (09:28)
$9 mini offers obviously were given away for free but there was also discounts on higher priced offers. I booked a one-on-one intensive client which is ⁓ 4k plus so she had been lingering on my list and just loved the approach, engaged with all the things on my website and booked me. I signed members for my membership which is a high ticket membership so that brought in nice recurring revenue so it was just this beautiful
way to end the year, not only make some extra sales, but also connect on a deeper level with my list.
Laura Kendrick (10:04)
I love that. I love that. Okay, so my last question about like specifically about this, because I need to know, how did you make the like, what tech did you use to make the little elves do their things?
Nadine Nethery (10:08)
Hahaha ⁓
Yeah so I used Showit which is nice and easy so you can literally drag and drop the elf into into all the places. I linked it up and then had a special elf page for each of the elves that revealed the offer with a coupon code.
Laura Kendrick (10:18)
Mm-hmm.
nice.
Nadine Nethery (10:33)
There's other ways you can do it ⁓ as well, but I thought that was the simplest. You just build the page ones, you duplicate, you add the particular offer, and then you can either just hide them and use them next time you run a scavenger hunt or just get rid of them after. But yeah, it is so easy. You just have to have the right idea ⁓ and be very considerate and strategic with how you place them on your website, what offers.
Laura Kendrick (10:35)
Yeah, but that's simple. Yeah.
Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (11:00)
obviously planned and what I felt was important because as I said it was off the back of Black Friday I didn't want to just sell more stuff so that's where you know opportunities to have one-on-one time with me and access to me and those exclusive opportunities for people who simply didn't have the money or the bandwidth to invest in more stuff where they could come into my universe and still benefit from this promotion.
Laura Kendrick (11:26)
Yeah, I love that thoughtfulness. And
I love how much fun this is. And I love how creative this is because we all get, I feel like so bogged down in the like, this is what you do. I mean, we're sitting here on a summit. this is not the first summit that's ever been run on the face of the planet. This is not an original idea. It is a my spin on it.
Nadine Nethery (11:37)
Hmm.
Mm.
11:55 Creativity in Business and Marketing
Laura Kendrick (11:55)
And I love that this just came out of left field and came out of a place of joy. And I think that's what made it go, oh my God, for me, is that it's not just a, know, trudge along, check another box, do the things. It's like, how can I have fun doing this and cultivate fun for my people?
Nadine Nethery (12:01)
Mm.
Yeah, absolutely. And especially in the age of AI, I feel people sound more and more the same, people rely on the same strategies, everyone's recycling what's already out there. So I really wanted to prove that creativity can absolutely break and interrupt that pattern that we're to. As I said, same sale, same promotion, everything sounds the same. And ⁓ emotion happens to be the currency.
Laura Kendrick (12:22)
Mm-hmm.
Nadine Nethery (12:48)
of your customer experience. So if you can make people feel, you know, take them back to their childhood, as I said, that, you know, feeling like I found the egg, oh my God, like, yes. And surprise and delight is such a nice way to do that. You know, like I created this, obviously, I'm a business owner to make sales, but also to interrupt the pattern, surprise and delight and provide people with that little dopamine hit.
Laura Kendrick (12:50)
Always. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (13:14)
on a regular day in the office where they likely come across my social posts, my email and it just brings joy right and it's so easy to turn your website, your online real estate into the ultimate gamification tool. Like it doesn't take a lot of tech, you just build a few extra pages, put your thinking cap on and have some fun.
Laura Kendrick (13:32)
Yeah.
This is reminding me of ⁓ this summer. We found an app that has been around for a while, but we just found it. And it's called the Finch app. don't know if you've heard of it. ⁓ It's, I know, well, okay. You're gonna have, like, if you're interested, I'm gonna have to send you the thing. Hold on, there's a whole story here. So this, it's about self care. And just, but you can cultivate it how you want. So instead of being that thing that's like, create your morning routine as boringly as possible.
Nadine Nethery (13:43)
Mm-hmm.
No, tell me more. ⁓ please. Yes.
Hmm?
Laura Kendrick (14:04)
It is like you can attach anything to it. Like when you first go in, it's like easy wins, get out of bed. like, well, let's the bar a little higher, but like I'm good. But I created this whole thing. And the cool thing is, is it makes this little like finchy guy that gets a cute little name. get like it gets clothes and it has a room. And then eventually once you grow it just a little bit, you can travel it like mine currently is in Bali.
Nadine Nethery (14:10)
Boom.
Hmm?
Laura Kendrick (14:34)
And it was, yeah.
Nadine Nethery (14:34)
⁓ good for him.
Can I come?
Laura Kendrick (14:38)
They're exploring and you can have friends and the friends will, like they're finch. Like you can't really interact with the person, but you can send them like a good morning or like, here's some strength or here's a hug or here's a high five. And it is just the cutest thing on earth. And then you also get these like little micro pets. It is something that I have never had a streak in an app more than like four days. Like I just don't care that much.
Nadine Nethery (14:49)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
14:53 Gamification and Customer Experience
Laura Kendrick (15:05)
This app,
I'm already well into the 90 days and haven't stopped. And I'm like, it is gamified in just the perfect way to get the like, this is fun. And we're actually introducing it to other people because my kids are involved now. And if you invite three people, you get a little cow micro pet. And they are walking around the neighborhood telling the neighbors like, we need Cookie the cow.
Nadine Nethery (15:11)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Please get a finch. Well if you need your kids to have someone else to get a finch, I'm happy to volunteer. That sounds so good! ⁓
Laura Kendrick (15:31)
Yes!
you're totally going to get a link. It really is, but it speaks to that. If you can just kind of tap into the joy of people in just the right way, something as simple as like brushing or no flossing my teeth has become joyful because I attach it to getting the next micro pet. And now like the kids are in the bathroom with me and we're all flossing or we'll be driving down the road. I'm like, do your 10 shoulder rolls for for Skittles. And they're like, OK.
Nadine Nethery (15:49)
Mmm.
Yeah!
Laura Kendrick (16:09)
You
Nadine Nethery (16:10)
It is so fun though, right? Like we're so serious in life and in business, which is totally unnecessary. I'm like, well, as a business owner, you know, you need to deliver on your promise and you need to actually do what you, you know, what you said you were going to do. But if you can do it in a fun way, you know, like inside memberships, it's, I don't know, you know, a service provider. So you can add so many awesome little touches that are just unexpected. And people go, my God, like she went out of her way to...
Laura Kendrick (16:15)
I know.
Yeah.
Why? No. Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (16:39)
think of me and make my day. So yeah, it's not hard to be a kind person and a kind business owner I feel.
Laura Kendrick (16:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, no, it's not. And I find too that those things
not only lead to a business that you enjoy, but they do lead to more of the right sales. is my business making $5 million a year and has an email list in the tens of thousands or millions or whatever? No, but that's not what I want. I don't want to be the churn and burn.
Nadine Nethery (16:58)
Mmm.
Laura Kendrick (17:14)
You know, that's just like, me your money. Goodbye. Give me your money. Goodbye.
Nadine Nethery (17:15)
Exactly. Yeah. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (17:17)
That's not what I'm after. And most of the people I would argue who are listening to this like minded where they want to have a business that they can be proud of that nurtures their clients as well as them. And having these little touches, like I think the most joyful thing to me is like, I'm absolutely going to try this. I'm very excited about this now. Yeah. it's this is going to be super fun, but
Nadine Nethery (17:22)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Please do! Yes!
Laura Kendrick (17:44)
It is something that I think it grants permission to go outside the box and think joyfully rather than constantly strategically. And this is really interesting because it's butting up against a conversation I actually had earlier today recording another session for this that we were talking about how copywriting is so structured. Like I have a friend who is an editor and she is an
17:54 Final Thoughts and Future Plans
Nadine Nethery (17:54)
Mm.
Mmm.
Laura Kendrick (18:12)
And she's very funny because she talks about when she's editing writers, she's like, OK, you need to reel it in. You are way out there. Let's come in. She's like, but when I edit copywriters, she's like, all right, lighten up. Loosen up. Go with the rules.
Nadine Nethery (18:21)
I'm
Yeah, let's just... shhh...move a little. Yes!
Laura Kendrick (18:30)
Yes, yes, but
in copy we have this tendency to get so strategic and down to like word choice, sentence structure, grammar. Like I know everybody talks about like an dash must be something that has to, like AI wrote that. No, no, no, Copywriters have loved dashes for years. this is how, yeah, this is how we write. But it's, you think about, you know, where your headings are, what they are, the transitions.
Nadine Nethery (18:48)
Yeah, they've been a thing!
Mm.
Laura Kendrick (18:57)
where how we're walking them through the page, we're meeting different buyer types. Like there's so much thought process that goes into how you set things up that that thought process has, though it's delightful, it is bled over into other bits of marketing as well. And then people get so just bogged down in all the checklists and the like, okay, it's gotta meet this standard, it's gotta meet that one. It's like, well, at some point, like know the rules, but feel free to break them and bend them and you know.
Nadine Nethery (18:59)
Mmm.
Yeah,
Laura Kendrick (19:27)
Have fun!
Nadine Nethery (19:27)
exactly. Rules are there to be broken. And then when you break them, people actually go, ooh, I'm intrigued. You know, like that's when people pay attention, when you're slightly different, slightly out there and you deliver the unexpected. So, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (19:42)
Right? Except
shh, don't tell our kids that the rules are meant to be broken. Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (19:46)
Oh yeah no, no no please. Regimented no. I think they catch on to it though. Do you love when they argue with you? They go mum but you just ... I'm like yeah no but ... no. It's about being you know knowing when to flex right. That's the thing you know be strategic but also have some fun. I reckon there's a balance in that and
Laura Kendrick (19:49)
Yes, they can learn that when they're, when they're prefrontal cortex.
Yeah.
Nadine Nethery (20:12)
with this one you know I had fun and it was strategic so you can totally marry the two. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (20:15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that so much, truly. All right,
well, you must share with the people. How can they find you?
Nadine Nethery (20:25)
yeah so best spot is my website have a look check it out it is i know well maybe i'll find i'll hide one in time i never know let's have a look yeah yeah just a joint one
Laura Kendrick (20:30)
See if you can find a little Nadine with a hat.
could do one of the two of us.
Nadine Nethery (20:41)
Let's do it. Yeah, so hit up my website. It's can do content com and I'm also a Podcast house. So if you like out-of-the-box ideas like this one hit up my podcast. What would they do? It's all about customer experience and how you can fuse the light into your business
Laura Kendrick (21:02)
I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining. I mean, this was such a delight. It really was.
Nadine Nethery (21:09)
Thanks Laura and now I need to keep an eye on your website for your scavenger hunt. Yes, and we need to get onto that joint elf. Yeah Awesome cool
Laura Kendrick (21:14)
you'll know when it happens, yeah.
my gosh, yes, I'm down, so down.
Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Websites.
Route multiple ideal clients on one site with instant clarity (“What are you here for?”) and just 1–2 CTAs that convert.
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Taylor Aller is a business strategist, TEDx speaker, and Registered Massage Therapist who helps multipassionate entrepreneurs make more money and scale their business without burning out or boxing themselves in. She’s known for her no-fluff strategy, social media–free approach, and hands-on support that actually fits real life. She's always cheering for the underdog. When she’s not working, you’ll find her chasing her two kiddos, devouring a good book, or building custom GPTs just for fun.
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Make It Happen Planner Freebie + Private Podcast
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This is my signature goal-setting tool and planning framework — perfect for multipassionate entrepreneurs who want to reverse-engineer their next 12 months - 4. years (yes, really) without burning out.
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If you’ve got big goals but feel scattered trying to make them happen, Taylor’s Make It Happen Planner + private podcast will walk you step-by-step through reverse-engineering your next 12 months to 4 years. It’s the exact tool she uses with her clients to build sustainable, profitable businesses — without burning out. -
00:00 Introduction to Multi-Potentiality
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Welcome, Taylor. I am super excited for this conversation because, ⁓ the minds that are going to crack open here. It's going to be so good. So good. So let's start with you introducing a little bit about yourself to all the people who don't yet know who you are.
Taylor Aller (00:02)
Hi Laura.
Yeah.
I am Taylor. I love the term multi potential light, which is somebody who's passionate about more than one thing. So hello listener. You're probably a multi pod too. ⁓ I practice as a registered massage therapist in Canada. I work as a one-to-one consultant for other multi-passionate entrepreneurs. I'm a TEDx speaker. You can find my Ted talk all about multi-passionate living. I'm an educator to college. I teach two courses there and I'm a mama and a wife and I do so many other things. The more that you get to know me, the more you find out I have done and will do.
So that's a bit about me.
Laura Kendrick (00:54)
And it is, I think it's so important, because though not everybody is as widespread as you are. And something I've learned in life is not everybody has the same capacity. So there's that. But you, I love that when I met you the first time, I was like, ⁓ here's a word for this thing that I'm interested in more than one thing. I can see how I could turn this into something in my world.
Taylor Aller (01:05)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (01:21)
very easily, but then the rest of the world really tells us all to just niche down, niche down, have one offer in the beginning. look, I'm not fighting that advice across the board, but there are some people, and then also there is later on in your kind of journey, where then I also kind of imagine that some people will kind of let go of a successful business because they're interested in something else and they kind of can't.
They can't imagine that they can do two at once or two different things. And I love that you are just not of that mindset.
Taylor Aller (01:53)
Mm-hmm.
No, no. And I so agree with you. The world is built for singularly experts, right? And there is a time and place for those. If I need heart surgery, you better be an expert heart surgeon. Like I do not want to have somebody who dabbles in this as a hobby. Like you better be, I'm fairly sure that's what I would prefer. However, in a lot of other industries, being multi-passionate and having all these different intersections, that's actually where the magic happens. And instead of it being a disadvantage, like we're often taught success is just for experts in those things.
Laura Kendrick (02:05)
Mm-hmm.
sure.
Taylor Aller (02:29)
It's actually not. I would argue that it's probably one of the more valuable traits and characteristics that we're coming into in the world of AI and other situations because innovation and creativity are born in those intersections. And when you have multiple passions, you have multiple intersections. Those are the places that the fireworks exist. And if you have a lot of those situations, like your work is booming with fireworks. That's amazing. That's where the most creative problem solving is going to be. That's where the next app is going to be developed. That's where the next service product or iteration, that's where the next problem that's going to be solved. All of those things are going to be happening there.
02:48 The Value of Multi-Passionate Living
Laura Kendrick (02:48)
Mm-hmm.
Taylor Aller (02:59)
and they often have skills and a learning capacity that is way higher than those of experts. Their agility and ability to be dynamic and learn and fail quickly is unprecedented. They are expert, expert learners as multi-potentialites. And that's an asset I think in today's world that's shifting so quickly. So yeah, I agree with you. The world is built for that. We're pushed into that box and I am all about screw the box. You know, there wasn't a box meant for me. There's not enough of them. I need squiggles and doodles. I need all of the above and I'm not alone.
Laura Kendrick (03:22)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Taylor Aller (03:29)
There are so many of us out there and it is possible to have a life of success that way. However, it's not gonna be by usually smooshing everything together. That's not how it works. It's usually done one at a time type of thing. It's not all at once and it's certainly not by yourself. So there is some strategy behind having success there, but it's totally possible.
Laura Kendrick (03:30)
Yeah, no you're not.
I also,
there was something you said in there too that kind of lit up my brain a little bit too is in, cause there's an element too of how it shifts the way you work. Like I'm a copywriter, let's be real. We're a dime a dozen. Like there's a lot of us, but what sets me apart is the way I view things, the way I work and the way I like my past and my, things that light me up affect
how I view marketing, how I view copy and how I interact with it. And that is like, gives you credibility in its own way. It gives you its own special like spice blend of authority. It gives this thing that will call in the exact right people. And so though it's like, it is a slightly different thing as having multiple businesses or multiple arms of your business, it does still like, even those of us who don't run in that realm or don't feel like they have the capacity to do that, it's still peppered into what you do. And it's what makes you unique and amazing in this very, very loud world.
Taylor Aller (04:57)
100%. It's your differentiator. And like I said before, I argue it's a leverage point and it's an asset and an advantage. It is not a disadvantage in most cases. Again, heart surgeon. Please just be a heart surgeon.
Laura Kendrick (05:03)
Mm-hmm, for sure.
I love that. All right, so let's pivot this a little bit because here's something that is interesting and this is what you brought up when we were talking about topics because you were definitely one of the first people that I was like, Taylor, we need to talk about this. you like bringing this into marketing and into a website because this is something that I feel like stops a lot of people is that they're thinking about, well, like.
Taylor Aller (05:33)
Hmm.
Laura Kendrick (05:37)
I'm a teacher and I'm or in your instance, I'm a massage therapist and I'm a business person and I'm a mom. How do I make my messaging clear? Because let's be real, trying to manage like an Instagram account for each of those things would drive you absolutely insane. But also,
05:54 Finding Clarity in Messaging
Taylor Aller (05:54)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (05:59)
It's very hard to sit there and say, I'm selling massage and also telling my story as a mom and also telling my story as a teacher and a TEDx speaker and all the other things that you are. So let's draw that thread of clarity because I mean, I'm like sitting here on the edge of my seat, like, oh, do tell.
Taylor Aller (06:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, so that that is absolutely one of the first questions I get asked is like Once they get past that how are you doing all of this right once we get past that question then it is like okay Well, I think I'm the same except How do I do this now right? Do I have three separate websites for everything? Do I do the different handles? Am I running this different campaign over here on my YouTube channel? And then I have this over here that I'm doing on social media and Instagram and then I have this
that I'm doing print advertising for and what about my like other brand that I'm dropping merch for and it's gonna be over and it's right because that's what we're told to do and then we think okay let's do the opposite let's smoosh it all together and then that just becomes like a soup there's very very it is possible but it's very limited the amount of businesses that can actually smoosh those things together the group hug approach as Emily Wapnick calls it she's one of our gurus in the multi-potential light world ⁓ that can happen but for a very small subsect of businesses most of the time we
Laura Kendrick (06:50)
Yeah, they want to compartmentalize. Yeah. Yes.
love that.
Taylor Aller (07:16)
need a different business model to be able to do that, or we need a strategy behind what we're doing. My favorite strategy that I bring people through is finding the golden thread behind all the things that you're doing. It may on the surface seem really connected. Great, right? We have somebody who is a personal trainer and a professional dancer and a nutritionist. Well, that's all pretty active and health related. Cool. We could probably smoosh that to some degree and it would not be confusing, right? And just the avenues that we're going to be collecting those ideal clients may be different, but we can all leave them back to the same place and it would be cohesive and it would make sense.
Laura Kendrick (07:25)
Mmm.
Taylor Aller (07:46)
would even be an asset to people to hire them. I'm gonna hire a nutritionist who's also an athlete. Like that makes sense. I want athletic nutrition, right? But in some instances, it's like I'm a pharmacist and a hip hop dancer and on the side, I bake cakes. And you're like, how am I gonna put that together, right? But when we can zoom out, when we can...
Laura Kendrick (08:01)
really messily. I just got an image of somebody like dancing with a cake and yeah.
Taylor Aller (08:07)
I'm talking like these are real clients I've had, right? And they're amazing. But in these instances, we need to find that through line. And most of the time, we're thinking about the what's that we do, and we're not thinking about the why that we do it. And if we can come back to that why, and it's not like, what's your motivation for doing all these things? But it's like, what is the itch that each of these things are scratching? And what's the overlap between all of them? Because when we're thinking about hip hop dance and cake baking, there's a lot of
Laura Kendrick (08:22)
Mmm, yeah.
08:37 The Golden Thread Exercise
Taylor Aller (08:37)
overlap there. There's creativity, there's working with your hand and your body, there's serving and entertaining others, being part of events. When we throw in pharmacy, maybe there's like a nerd side of you that loves to be able to break that out and you're that like Peter Parker, Spider-Man situation, right? Like what are these things? And I call it the golden thread exercise. I have a bot that helps you do that, or you can work through these exercises on your own, but it's figuring out, zooming out, what is that calling that you were here to do in the most vague but specific terms that can overlap between all of these things. So for
For example, I'm a registered healthcare professional. I consult in business. I teach at a college. These are all kind of very different things. But my overarching theme is that I love to help people. I'm an introvert. I love to do that in a one-to-one or in an intimate setting. And my favorite way to do that is through education and through hands-on execution. That overlaps with everything that I'm doing. As a massage therapist, I'm working one-to-one. I'm teaching my patients on rehabilitation or prenatal care or whatever it is that we're doing with motor vehicle accidents and sports rehab injuries.
Laura Kendrick (09:27)
Yeah.
Taylor Aller (09:37)
And I'm doing that with like one-to-one hands-on implementation. I do the same thing with my students at the college. Our class sizes are really limited. I'm not lecturing to like 200 students. We're talking like 15 to 30 students. To me, that feels like a crowd, but for most, that's intimate. And I'm working one-to-one with a lot of students hands-on and I get to move my body. Same thing when I'm working with my consulting clients. I'm an implementation partner and a strategist. So I'm working with them. My overarching theme is the same. So when I am positioning my website, transparently, I've been off social media since 2019. ⁓
story that you don't have to run a business on it. But if I were to have my brand on social media, it would be circling around that constant message. And that is the why that I'm doing. The vessels, the what, those are always changing because people with multiple passions, we're going to be swapping these puzzle pieces in and out. And you should have permission to be able to do that. And when your core messaging is the same and that stays consistent, all the what's don't really matter. It's just a new way for you to channel all of that stuff, the creativity, your desire to help, whether it's you're an introvert or you love to write and there's all
Laura Kendrick (10:08)
Yes.
Yeah.
Taylor Aller (10:37)
different ways that you're doing that. If you have a few of those things that are consistent over time, all of the wets don't really matter.
Laura Kendrick (10:43)
I love that because I mean, at the end of the day, that is just clear messaging for anything, having that clear through line. And even if for the people who are sitting here not fully understanding the kind of path of a multi-potential light, because they're not that way. OK, cool. But the thing is, for all of us, there's some element of this in the business for most of us. ⁓
Taylor Aller (10:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (11:09)
There are very few people who run a business on one single offer for eternity. Most people will open up to an offer suite or something or different ways. I mean, how many of us stop and think about having our revenue a little bit more balanced where there's things that are more evergreen, there's things that are one on one, maybe there's some kind of group element, maybe there's like these one off things versus these big long projects.
Taylor Aller (11:34)
Yes.
Laura Kendrick (11:34)
And how do you work that in? And even if you're, it's all in one business, but those are different offers, there's, right. There still has to be a through line to connect all of that in your messaging, in your marketing, in your copy. And I love that though this is coming from a very specific way of running your business and your life.
11:41 Creating a Cohesive Online Presence
Taylor Aller (11:41)
and potentially different clients, right? Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (11:59)
And I like when
I met you, had never heard this terminology and was like, my gosh, this makes so much sense. This is so interesting, but it really does apply to everyone.
Taylor Aller (12:08)
Mm.
It does, it does. And most of us are multi-passionate, right? Whether it's a rich professional life and personal life, right? It doesn't have to be these totally opposing things like hip hop, dance and pharmacy, but it can be wanting to be a present parent and at the same time have a thriving business that you own. It could be wanting to have a passion where it is a nine to five that you're doing, but you have this other calling of creativity that you want to explore equally, right? It's most of us are leaning in that category. And then when it, to circle back to the website situation or even social media, it is clarity in that through line. And then it's clarity.
Laura Kendrick (12:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Taylor Aller (12:39)
on the next action step. And most of the time I leave that up to my ideal client. I have a different ideal client between a patient, a student and a client. Like those are all very different. I'm speaking different languages. I'm doing different things. And you'll see on my website, like one of the first things is like, what are you here for? Right. And I let them choose. Did you find me because you're interested in consulting, ⁓ business-wise, multi-professional live in? Did you find me because you're looking for improvements in your healthcare, your local, the area you want to come to my clinic? Did you find me because you're a student at the college and you're Googling me and you should get back to your homework, right? Like, is it something?
Laura Kendrick (12:41)
Hmm.
Taylor Aller (13:09)
else that is going on here. It's not, it should be, you know, like that type of situation. It's like, Hey, what are you here for? Right. And it's allowing them to have that clarity right away. Instead of bombarding them. Most of the people that are coming to your website, they have been sent there, you know, whether it's through Google, whether it's through social media, whether it's LinkedIn or something, they already have an idea of you. They already know what it is they're trying to look for at your website. Make it easy for them. Right. It doesn't have to be this like flashy business card that looks pretty. It is something that has to be functional and something that's clear. So if you have that consistent through line,
Laura Kendrick (13:10)
I hope that's on your site somewhere.
Yes.
Yes.
Taylor Aller (13:40)
where you can have your messaging being consistent no matter what page they're on and you don't need a lot of pages. Then if you have the choose your own adventure, hey, what are you here for? Here's where you can get a little bit more specific to find that angle of what I am about, that facet of the side of my business. And then all of it is leading back to one or two singular actions. And for me on my website, it's like contact me. This is like a real contact form. It goes truly to my inbox. I will read it and reply to it. Yes, I'm a real person. I will get back to you. Or join my email list. Like join the community. We have a lot of conversations over there. It is a two-way street and because I'm social media free that's like the best way to connect with me. So it's those clarity and limited options. Sometimes as multi-potentialites we think we have to have everything for every single aspect, passion or hobby and we don't. We can still keep it incredibly simple even though there are multiple facets to it. It doesn't mean that there has to be multiple steps for each one of those facets. It can still maintain that simplicity.
Laura Kendrick (14:34)
I love that you mentioned that, because it actually lands at the heart of what drove this particular version of this summit to rise from the depths of my brain is a UX website.
Taylor Aller (14:44)
You're such a copywriter. my God. Your word smithing is amazing.
14:46 User Experience and Website Conversion
Laura Kendrick (14:50)
What was the one I got you with this summer? think it was like Holy Bananas or something. I can't know. It wasn't that. Oh, great googly bears. That's right. My expletive of great googly bears. Yeah. The so yeah, it's funny, though, because that's where this all stemmed from was the idea of.
Taylor Aller (14:53)
⁓ No, it was like googly bears or something. Yeah. ⁓ man.
Laura Kendrick (15:12)
having a website that isn't just a digital business card that looks pretty and is, you know, built in Canva or show it or Squarespace or whatever, using all their templates. It is about having a website that actually converts. And the key to having it convert is thinking about the user experience in that. And that's exactly what you're diving into here. And you're putting it under this like kind of microscope of it is possible to even do this with yes.
Taylor Aller (15:30)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (15:39)
multiple ideal clients, which so many people come to me with and are like, well, I have multiple clients. Yeah, so do I, because I have different offers. There are different things that my people are consuming at various levels. And that's the thing is you have to stop, sit down and really think about it of what does this particular person, first of all, where are they landing on the website? Like, how did they get here and where do you want them to land? And thinking that through,
when you drop a link to something. whether it's a blog post that's linked to someplace on your website or whether you're dropping it in your Instagram handle or the linky things, or whether you're dropping it as a lead magnet or summit or in an email, thinking about the right person landing in the right spot on your website, what do they need to know to move forward? What do you want them to do? And really mapping that out will help them.
Taylor Aller (16:17)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (16:36)
decide more quickly whether or not this is the right place for them or not. And if you're really strategic about it, aha, you can meet multiple ideal clients all at the same time by giving them that like choose your own adventure kind of way of, hello, here you are, where do you need to be?
Taylor Aller (16:55)
Mm-hmm, exactly, exactly. And I think ⁓ to circle back to what you said there too, it applies to all of those different offers. Like even if I were to take...
one single arm of my business. If you were just to look at massage therapy, I treat a variety of patients. I do a lot in the perinatal space, so that women preparing to give birth and who have just given birth in postpartum. I'm treating a lot of MBAs, motor vehicle accidents, and I treat a lot of sports injuries. Those are like my three areas of preferred interest. Some of that is gonna overlap. Sometimes I get a pregnant lady who's been in a car accident who also runs marathons, right? But most of the time, they're not overlapping. But being able to be strategic with how it is that I am marketing and where I am sending people to and same with the referral systems I have set up with other people just like you were saying with all of the links that you're dropping in everywhere it's also what you're asking other people to send because I believe a lot of businesses relationship building I think long lasting businesses are built on strong relationships and I'm a huge fan of collaboration there was more than enough room in the finish line for all of us we are all walking each other home like this is not a solo sport and this is coming from an introvert like we are in this together right whether I want to or not you know we are all here together and I
17:51 Planning for Clarity and Success
Laura Kendrick (17:51)
Yes.
for sure. For sure.
Mm-hmm.
Taylor Aller (18:06)
having a solid referral system is key, but it's only functional if you're referring them to a place that has clarity and has a way for them to convert over. And I'm not saying my website is perfect. I'm not even saying it's up to date, but it still works. It still works. It has a very clear, like choose why you're here. And the actions are always going to the same contact form. It's always going to the same inbox and I'm able to adjust accordingly to whoever shows up there. And yes, there's certain caveats with, you know, the contact form and it's kind of getting catered and you can kind of filter yourself through there. But for the most part, it is like very clear and very clean.
and that's the way that I like it. Yeah, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (18:38)
important. Yeah, it's important. And I think
that's probably the part where people get so bogged down because they can't see the clarity in all of the options internally. mean, like when they're stopping themselves from embracing multiple facets of themselves in their business or in life is that they're they're seeing chaos and and it's stressful. So I love that.
Taylor Aller (18:49)
Yes.
Yeah. Well, you know what? That's actually,
that's an incredible point, Laura. And I hadn't really given that.
more space to breathe because I think the reason why it feels so clear to me is because I do a lot of that planning work. I have my Make It Happen planner that I'm happy to give you and you can give everybody else, but it allows you to get that clarity on that first year and the next four years so that when you are crafting your offers, when you are thinking about, okay, what do I have coming up for me this next year? What is it that I am going to be launching? What is it that I am going to be retiring out and sunsetting? What am I going to be putting out? What offers am I going to want to do? What capacity do I have? When you have that plan in place, the clarity for that website and those conversions becomes a lot easier. So that's an incredible point that I didn't think of that. No wonder you're so brilliant. Yeah. Cause that matters when you have that clarity, the rest seems easy. So yeah, take the step to do that first. Cause then the rest will unfold from there. Yeah. Great call.
Laura Kendrick (19:53)
For sure, for sure. I am so happy that you came to share this with us, Taylor. I think this just adds a whole nother element to these conversations. And it's so important to embrace variety and embrace our own unique, ⁓ my gosh, uniqueness, even the not being able to talk. ⁓
Taylor Aller (20:11)
Yeah.
You write, you don't talk, it's okay. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (20:15)
Yeah, right, there you go. Well,
before we sign off here, do tell the people where they can find you.
Taylor Aller (20:24)
my website, go there, tayloralor.com. Like Taylor, like Swift, except a little older, and aller.com. And you can find everything you need. You can choose your own adventure and feel free to use the contact form. I'm a real person. I will read and reply to every single one.
Laura Kendrick (20:39)
I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming and joining this and bringing this amazing conversation to this party.
Taylor Aller (20:46)
Thanks for having me. It was a blast. As usual.
After the Freebie: What Happens Next.
Turn “thanks for downloading” into a mapped journey—nurture → pitch → sale—so your lead magnet actually makes money.
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Allison Hardy is an email marketing strategist for coaches and online business owners who want to sell their offers on autopilot—without constantly launching or living on social media. Through her signature membership, Emails That Sell, she helps entrepreneurs create high-converting email funnels that do the heavy lifting, so they can spend more time living and less time hustling.
With over a decade of experience, Allison has been featured in The Huffington Post, named one of Washington D.C.'s most influential professionals under 40, and has built a multiple six-figure business while raising two kids and redefining what success looks like for CEO moms.
Known for her punchy messaging, zero-fluff strategies, and ability to make email feel fun (yes, really!), Allison is the tough-love marketing bestie you didn’t know you needed. -
-
00:00 Introduction to Email Marketing and Lead Magnets
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Allison Hardy.
I'm excited you're here and I'm really really pumped that we're gonna talk about what happens after somebody grabs a lead magnet because not enough people are talking about that so let's do it. Yes! ⁓ Before we do though do tell the people who should know who you are but don't yet a little bit about you.
Allison Hardy (00:03)
Thank
Well, I'm pumped to be here to talk about that.
Sure. So I'm Alison Hardy. I live right outside of Washington, DC in Arlington, Virginia. I've got two kids. They're wild. ⁓ They're great, but until my whole business is built around the idea that I have two kids. ⁓ I started my business when I got laid off when I was six months pregnant with my first. And I was like, you know what?
Laura Kendrick (00:34)
I love how you said that with an exhale.
Yeah.
Ugh.
Allison Hardy (00:52)
Like maybe it's time to like actually live a life instead of just work all the time. So started the business. ⁓ and I applied my nine to five to my business shocker. And so I burnt out cause I was working like 60 hour weeks with a baby and that doesn't work. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (00:56)
Yes.
Allison Hardy (01:08)
And through a very crazy series of events, I landed on just email marketing being the thing that I would use to grow my business. And so at the time it was a personal training business and I grew it pretty quickly through nothing but email because it was the most sustainable thing I could figure out. ⁓ With the baby, with postpartum depression, I needed something that...
Laura Kendrick (01:22)
Yeah.
Allison Hardy (01:28)
made it so that I could actually sell my things so that could actually make money while not like being physically present. So that's what I did. And then, you know, people started asking me how I did it. And I was like, well, it's three now. You just raise a couple of emails. And then they were like, well, I don't know how to do that. Can you teach me? And I was like, sure, let's do that. So now I have a membership. It's called Emails Let's Sell. And I teach my entire process for what happens after you download a lead magnet inside of that so that you can sell on autopilot.
Laura Kendrick (01:43)
Mm-hmm.
I love it. I love that so much. Because honestly, even I understand conversion. I understand conversion copy. I understand the psychology of it. But I get lost in my own crap, too, where I mean, I think just last week I sent out an email that was a little salesier than usual. Yeah, crickets.
Allison Hardy (02:08)
Who would die?
Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's really important that we, you know, like know how like part of my process is like knowing how your people buy. Like what do you need to say? What do you need to do? What do you need to present? How can you get them qualified for the pitch so that when you do, they actually buy?
Laura Kendrick (02:32)
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I mean, most people who are here will understand the place that a lead magnet or freebie sits in that funnel. And if you don't, just in case, it is that thing that you can offer in all sorts of places on the interwebs that gets people to join your list or it shall I say invites people to join your list and give them a lovely little gift or a little taster or a little win.
02:42 The Importance of Nurture Sequences
Allison Hardy (02:42)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (03:02)
is how I like to think about it of how you work to get them in. But here's the interesting thing. Lots of people talk about developing their freebies. Lots of people talk about how to get them out there through bundles, summits, ⁓ list swaps, all the tactics of doing that. But not many people talk about what happens after the person downloads it outside of the simple, the old template of here's a six email nurture sequence.
Which, yeah, great, but also, let's dive into that.
Allison Hardy (03:34)
Yeah, like the six email nurture sequence that everybody uses gets you started, right? It's like a good, like, let's just get it up and running. But what I see a lot with those templates, the six email nurture sequence is that it's all focused on you as his business owner. Like here's a blog post I wrote, here's a podcast episode I was on, here's a client story. And it doesn't answer the question for the person consuming the emails.
Laura Kendrick (03:50)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.
Allison Hardy (04:01)
What's in it for me? Because you served them really well through this awesome lead magnet. You have this really awesome program that you're gonna invite them to join eventually. But like, it's the in-between that you have to get them to the point so that they're qualified and the pitch makes sense for them.
Laura Kendrick (04:15)
Yes, yes. And that is key to conversion that you have. can't just have people. I mean, I guess you can if you have a low ticket offer and it's low weight. But for most people who have a bigger process or a bigger offer, you really need them to kind of come along the journey and start to see themselves in the space with you and that you're the right person and that this is the win that they want. And I love that you're talking about this. So instead of the like six email you know, template situation. What, how do you see this?
Allison Hardy (04:49)
Yeah, I think about it like steps. So they download the lead magnet and you have your program, right? So they each solve specific pain points. So anytime you solve a pain point, a new one emerges, right? So that's step one. And then when you solve that, like the new one emerges, that's step two. And you're kind of doing this continual opening and closing of like gaps. That's another way to think about it. So whatever those, yeah.
Laura Kendrick (05:04)
Yeah.
That's a good sales technique. Yeah.
Allison Hardy (05:19)
Whatever those steps are, those are the emails. Those are I am a big fan of putting video inside of your nurture sequence, especially if you are like doing things with people live or they get any like part of you as a part of the program, you're going to pitch them. like, yes, teaching, but also answering the like what's in it for me question that our people have. Like back in the day, like pre-COVID, I think we could have a very like lackluster nurture sequence and like it would work.
But now like people have gotten smarter. They're more savvy buyers, the more skeptical. So it's the opening and the closing of the gaps. And like, always encourage somewhere around like three to eight, it just depends on your offer, three to eight email nurture sequence. But like, again, answering the question of like, what's in it for me opening and closing those gaps and really getting them qualified for the pitch.
05:49 Creating Engagement Through Video and Mini Offers
Laura Kendrick (05:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love that. And truly that is the like in the high ticket sales world. That's the whole thing is it's not that you're pushing the your own agenda on them. It's about getting them to see themselves where those gaps are and allowing them to see that they need to bridge them rather than you telling them they need to bridge them. So I love that in your process. And by the way, the videos. yeah. Like now I'm sitting here like, ⁓ I need to redo everything.
Allison Hardy (06:40)
⁓
Laura Kendrick (06:43)
Yay.
Allison Hardy (06:44)
But also like you also want to get them in the habit of clicking, right? Because they're going to buy something by clicking in an email. So having something to click in inside of that nurture sequence that actually serves them is a great way to create that habit, that culture within your email marketing.
Laura Kendrick (06:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I really like it. So when you're creating these gaps, are they just staying in the emails or are they like other mini offers? how, what are you, how are you kind of building this?
Allison Hardy (07:13)
Yeah, I like to have many offers kind of woven in. So what I actually have set up inside of my funnel is it's an email. It talks about why you need to watch the video. You click on the video, you watch it. And at the very end of most of my videos in my narrative sequence, I'm like, hey, if you want like more on this, if you want to know more of a step by step process on this concept right below this video is a yellow button. You can check out my digital product. It's called whatever it's twenty seven dollars. And then I just sign off. like sales can come in through.
Laura Kendrick (07:16)
Mm-hmm.
Allison Hardy (07:42)
those emails, but really like the end goal is for them ⁓ to buy the bigger program. But it also creates that culture of buying within your funnel. Your people are used to getting pitched to you and it's not even like getting pitched to you. It's like just an invitation. Like, I have this thing if you want to go more here.
Laura Kendrick (07:57)
Right.
Right. And that's something that many of us struggle with is the whole, you know, we have that image of this, the used car salesman. It's like it's selling icky, but it doesn't have to be. It is an invitation. is simply a here. Here's the thing that I do. And if it's right for you, cool. Rock on. So what have you seen with your especially I'm really curious because like clearly you knocked out of the park for you, but with your people.
Allison Hardy (08:03)
for sure.
Laura Kendrick (08:24)
How have you seen this like shift for them?
Allison Hardy (08:28)
Yeah, I had a client have a, what was it? It was a hundred thousand dollars in sales in 93 days. And the only thing we changed, she had a really good pitch sequence. I was like, I don't, I don't think you need to change this at all. But where her, her sticking point was her nurture sequence. So once we kind of, and she had that like standard six one all about her, ⁓ and why she was so great. And she was, she's wonderful at what she does. She's truly like a master at it.
But like her nurture sequence wasn't answering the what's in it for me question. So as soon as we made that new nurture sequence live, she saw her sales increase and she achieved those really cool results in those 93 days. So like, it's just a different way of thinking about a nurture sequence. It's a different way of presenting information. And I think when you can give, like in those videos, you can give like quick wins, like, hey, try this. And when they see results from that like really simple thing they did,
08:58 The Shift in Buyer Behavior and Conversion Strategies
Laura Kendrick (09:02)
Yes.
Hmm.
rates.
Allison Hardy (09:27)
that conversion rate will increase because they're like, this woman can actually help me. And she gave this to me for free. Awesome. Cool.
Laura Kendrick (09:34)
Which by the way, like that is at the heart of conversion. Like that's what we're doing as conversion copywriters. Like that is the whole game is you are getting them to see themselves. And this is the most common error I see in people's copy. When they say, well, you take a look at this is that they're talking about themselves. They're talking about their process. They're talking about what they can do for you. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, The person has to see what's in it for it.
them. They have to see themselves reflected back in the copy in order to buy in. People buy with emotions, not with their heads. ⁓ they need that emotional pull for sure. I love like this process. Truly, I'm sitting here like more than I think anybody else on this summit. I'm like drilling you with questions because I'm like, Alison, share the things that I want to know too.
Allison Hardy (10:09)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think that's a common mistake that we make. I do it all the time. I sent out a sequence like a week ago and one of my friends was like, Hey girl, this is all about you. And I was like, ⁓ crap. Like we all do it because for us it's, you know, this is what I have to deliver, right? I have to do this in a day or I have to give you access to this thing. And that's fine and great, but we're coming at it from our perspective. We have to really flip the script and think about it from their perspective. This is why this matters. This is.
Laura Kendrick (10:36)
Yeah.
Allison Hardy (10:52)
Like what do have to lose without doing this process and really making sure it's on the reader.
Laura Kendrick (10:57)
Yeah, yeah. I, it's so funny that that happens, that people are, yes, you have to give the information, yes, people aren't gonna sell this like super vague idea, but they, they really do have to anchor into themselves. And it is, I just like, my mind is totally blown right now. I'm like, ⁓ wow, why didn't I think about this before? And I do love that you're talking about getting them to click because,
Though I've heard people use the term like we have to train them to buy as though they're, you know, a circus animal or something that you're trying to get them to do a trick, which I don't know that I necessarily align with that way of thinking. I do also know there are lists out there that are nice and bountiful in people and they simply don't buy. And that is not the goal. Like building a list just to have a list.
11:54 Automation in Email Marketing
That then becomes a vanity metric. That's like saying, have 10 million people on Instagram as followers, but my business is folding. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So you have this nurture sequence. So are you automating all of this?
Allison Hardy (12:15)
Oh yeah, 100%. Yes.
Laura Kendrick (12:16)
And does it automate right into a sales sequence after that?
Allison Hardy (12:20)
Mm-hmm. Yep. So download the lead magnet. I think there's seven emails in my specific nurture sequence and then like a seven email pitch sequence. And then from there, there's, you know, there's other sequences behind it. My people are in a funnel for at this point about six months. Yeah, I want to get up to a year by the end of this year.
Laura Kendrick (12:40)
Nice. I love the goal. So are they getting your like weekly newsletters or emails as well or they're just in their automatic situation?
Allison Hardy (12:46)
No, they're in their automatic situation. And that's like probably the number one question I get. ⁓ And I do that because if we think about, you know, the function of a funnel, it's basically a launch, right? It's a way to deliver information that doesn't require you to show up live. So you need to like control the conversation. I don't know how else to say that. You need to like be very pointed in like, this is what you're doing. You people over here inside the funnel.
If you're not inside a funnel, yeah, it's more live. It's more like, this is what we got going on this week or here's this cool summit I'm a part of, I'd love for you to be in it or I'd love for you to attend, you know? ⁓ So yeah, so those people, it's like two kind of groups on my email list, but everything is automated. like once you're in the funnel, you have a specific tag. So when I send out those emails, I exclude the tag. But then like once you get out of it, that tag is removed and then you get the new tag for the mailing list. So like there's a lot of automation and it's...
Laura Kendrick (13:36)
Yeah. Yeah.
Allison Hardy (13:41)
to make it so that I'm not manually doing that. Cause that sucks.
Laura Kendrick (13:45)
Yeah, it does.
Allison Hardy (13:48)
It's so fun whatsoever. You don't have to babysit your email list. So learning automations, learning how to do things that like, you know, this happens when this and having those sorts of rules while yes, super tedious and can be really hard to figure out. It's a game changer for how you show up to your business. Cause you know, like they're squared away. They're good to go. We're good to go in this area. And that's like, peace of mind is paramount for me.
Laura Kendrick (14:04)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, couldn't agree more. And the thing is, too, is it doesn't have to start out as a six month funnel. you build it slowly. It starts to evolve as offers evolve and things that you can build from there. This is I love this. I love that you're like tapping into the automation things, too, because it does. It takes a big piece off of your your mindset. And I think that.
Allison Hardy (14:19)
No, not at all.
14:38 Integrating Lead Magnets with Your Website
Laura Kendrick (14:38)
There's definitely something to kind of being in the moment when the moments are there, but also there is something to getting people ready to be a part of your community. And I have to imagine that setting this up enables people to stay. Like I would imagine your unsubscribes are fairly low.
Allison Hardy (14:56)
Yeah, no, ⁓ because also I think that unsubscribes are low because number one, you have a good lead magnet. So I do think that is like a vitally important part. It attracts the right person. But then, people are like, this is actually valuable to me. Cool. I'm going to stay. ⁓ So yeah, it makes the unsubscribe rate drop drastically. That client of mine that had the $100K in 93 days, her unsubscribe rate went like it dropped by like
Laura Kendrick (15:03)
Mm.
Allison Hardy (15:25)
when we instituted the nurture sequence because people actually saw value in it and her open rate and her click rate increased as a result of that too. Yeah, like when people see value in it and they have that question, what's in it for me answered, they get it and they stay. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (15:32)
my God.
Yeah, yeah.
It's so funny because like I like I know all these things. This is not news to me. Like I fully aware of automatic funnels and making things work for you. But also when I like get to sit back and have the conversation and stop thinking about it, like from this high, like deep think kind of situation, I'm like, yeah, I really need to do better about that in my own business.
Allison Hardy (16:05)
Yeah.
I mean, we are the, what is it? The Cobbler shoes? Or the Cobbler's kids? Yeah. We're always the ones that need the thing that we talk about all the time. Yeah.Laura Kendrick (16:11)
Yes, my gosh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, I mean, this whole thing is about websites and my website currently as of recording this has been being put off for an update for like a year now, I think. yeah, we're, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, got it, yeah. So let's actually, let's talk about that for second. Let's hop into how do you filter this into your website? When you're talking to your people, how do you make the website and the lead magnet play together?
Allison Hardy (16:29)
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Yeah, that's a great question. So with the nurture sequence, you're driving traffic to a video, right? I always recommend that the video is on your website. It can be hosted by YouTube, Vimeo, wherever else you host videos, but you need to drive like your website.com slash video one or something. And it can be a, you know, unlinked page on your website. Nobody needs to be able to access it from anywhere else except for that email. But what it does is it creates more familiarity with your brand.
⁓ You control that traffic, right? So you can install a pixel. You can retarget people with Facebook ads if that's something you want to do. And it makes your again, it's like a familiar familiarity. I can't say that word right now. They become familiar with your brand even more. And then, you know, if you have that button below where like, hey, if you want to learn more about this thing, I have this process for you right below this video is a yellow button.
they're gonna click on that, they're go to another page on your website. So it just creates like this, like, oh, I'm going to the website for all the information. So that when they do go to buy, you drive them to your sales page, that's also on your website. So it really, works together, it drives the traffic, and you can also look to your Google Analytics, if that's something, if you wanna get really nerdy, you can go to Google Analytics and see like, okay, people came from like this specific email and watched this video. And if you use a tool like,
17:52 Maximizing Lead Magnet Effectiveness
Laura Kendrick (17:52)
Mmm.
Allison Hardy (18:09)
hot jar, you can see, okay, these people watch this three minute video up to like two minutes. Okay, cool. What was like the second half of the or the last minute of that video? What did I say? What did they do? Why didn't they continue to watch or listen? So it just gives you, you you control the website. It gives you more data at any time you are doing anything in business, especially with websites and email. Data is always going to drive all of your decisions.
Laura Kendrick (18:37)
Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I love that. Do you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And in a way I didn't expect, which is my favorite kind of answer where it's like, oh, yes, great advice. Do you some of your lead magnets? Do you like do you make them pop ups or do you have special ones that you think of for certain things like how? I don't know. What do you think about putting them on the Web site?
Allison Hardy (18:41)
Did that answer your question? Okay.
⁓ crap!
Yes, I think you should put them on the website. I don't do pop-ups simply because I don't like pop-ups. don't like it when they, I don't like like when I go to X out and it pops up and I have to X that thing out and then I'm like, ⁓ it irritates me. So I don't use them. I understand the validity of them. So if you are using them, cool, great. That's awesome. You do you. ⁓ Where does my lead magnet live? So my lead magnet is just a standalone page on my website. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (19:09)
Yeah, I hate them.
Allison Hardy (19:29)
I have a ConvertKit form like, or sorry, a kit form embedded on that page. I will always call it ConvertKit. Always. Always.
Laura Kendrick (19:35)
Agreed? Yep. We'll be in our 80s like, no that's convert kit.
Allison Hardy (19:41)
I used it for like, I've literally used it for like 10 years and I cannot not say convert kit because that's what it is in my head. so I have a, you know, a kit, form embedded on the landing page. I'm not driving traffic to like kits. I'm driving traffic to my website. ⁓ my tripwire, the thank you page lives on my website. I love it. I love a tripwire sale. It makes me so happy.
Laura Kendrick (20:01)
I do that too. Yeah.
But I like how, like I've built funnels. And I know people like their expensive funnel software and Rockon, again, do you. But also, I actually really love all the funnels kind of just built manually on my website where I get to control it all. I can see it all in one spot. It's, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Allison Hardy (20:25)
Yeah, it also gives you more freedom, right? To like change things. Yeah, it's a little bit easier. My lead magnet is also what should be on my home page. It's on every single blog post. It's in every single podcast episode. And it probably lives on the about page, or at least it should at this point. So yeah, I have it. I have it everywhere. Everywhere I can think of to put it, that it makes sense. I have it.
20:50 Conclusion and Resources
Laura Kendrick (20:50)
Do you have one lead magnet or do you have multiples?
Allison Hardy (20:53)
Technically have two, ⁓ but I only advertise one. So one is just a template, super easy download. The second one is a master class. And I usually only offer that to people who are warm in my audience because asking strangers on the internet to show up for an hour to talk about this thing, if they've never met me, it's probably, yeah, it's a big old commitment. I used to run Facebook ads to it and I just like spent so much money and saw just, you know, not a lot of conversions from it. So I figured out it probably wasn't worth my time.
Laura Kendrick (21:10)
commitment.
Mm.
Allison Hardy (21:22)
So I have that woven into that six month funnel, like an invitation to the master class, because I run it every month or so. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (21:29)
I love it. I love it. All right. Well, please do share how the people can find you.
Allison Hardy (21:36)
Sure, I hang out on Instagram, allison underscore hardy underscore. It's my favorite place. My website is allisonhardy.com and my lead magnet is called the $80,000 email templates. It's the template of the singular email they brought in $80,000 in sales last year. So I'd love for you to download that.
Laura Kendrick (21:56)
And we'll link to that for sure. And everybody should join your membership. I'm probably getting in there now.
Allison Hardy (22:02)
Well, thank you. It's super fun. I love my membership. I am like so proud of it and I love it and I love all the people in it. So love to have you.
Laura Kendrick (22:04)
Yeah, sitting here like, I need to do that.
Yeah, I mean, not that I haven't been tempted before, but now, like, just sitting here, I'm like, yeah, I need to get my shit together, so.
Allison Hardy (22:17)
Hahaha!
Laura Kendrick (22:18)
my gosh, well thank you so much for coming and sharing this because, and sorry I like peppered you with all the questions, but it was just, I wanted to know all the things, so I'm glad you came.
Allison Hardy (22:28)
I love it. Thank you for peppering me with all your questions.
Email Energetics 101.
Why the energy you write in is the energy your list receives—and how to hit “send” from alignment, not panic.
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Breanna Owen helps entrepreneurs write emails that feel good to send—and impossible to ignore. As an Email Energetics expert and Human Design strategist, she blends intuitive insight with sharp strategy to transform “meh” messaging into magnetic aligned content that converts with ease. Her gift? Identifying exactly what needs to shift—so the emails you send start working for you (even when you’re offline).
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5 powerful shifts to send better emails
If you’ve ever stared at a blank screen trying to write a “good email” and felt like you had no idea what to say — or ended up sounding nothing like yourself — you’re not alone.
This guide will show you how to stop writing emails that feel flat, forced, or formulaic… and start writing from a place of alignment that connects (and converts).
Email Energetics Expert Breanna walks you through 5 powerful shifts to send better emails — based on how you naturally operate (yes, even if you’re not a writer). So your emails feel better to write and better to read.
→ Perfect for entrepreneurs who want their emails to feel more natural, more them, and more effective—without trying to “write like a marketer.”
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00:00 Introduction to Breanna Owen: The Wizard of Copywriting
Laura Kendrick (00:01)
Breanna, I'm so happy that you are here to have this conversation, because ⁓ it's a good one. I'm just, really excited. We're going to break some minds wide open. It's going to be super fun. Yeah. my gosh. Thank you for being here. Let's begin with you telling people who don't know who you are, who you are, because they need to know who you are.
Breanna Owen (00:12)
Amazing. Thanks for having me.
Well, I love it. Thank you so much. lately people have been telling me I'm a wizard
Laura Kendrick (00:31)
Ooh.
Breanna Owen (00:31)
because they are so mind blown with how I can take two seconds to look at the human design chart and pull out very tangible pieces of content and guidance for their copy or their marketing materials that they can literally turn around and go put into action. And so the boring title I would say is that I'm a copywriter and email strategist for service based businesses, but
You know, I really love the fact that people call me a wizard.
Laura Kendrick (01:06)
Yeah.
Breanna Owen (01:06)
So
I might like lean into that. It's not magic, it's human design. But in my world, in my brand, what I do is I just bring together, I just really infuse. There's marketing strategy. It's like legit. We're following the industry standards, but also like copywriting, just the specificity that comes from really good copywriting. You're a copywriter. You know what I'm talking about. And then that third tier of the energetics.
of it all, so that it's all customized to each specific person. ⁓ And that's the trifecta of my wizardess witchy crown.
Laura Kendrick (01:44)
Yeah.
Which
I love. mean, having been a yoga teacher and a yoga practitioner since I was, I don't know, mean, was VHS tapes friend, because I, I mean, it was in the like mid nineties where you couldn't access that stuff except in a big city and I was not a big city. And I mean, and embracing that kind of outward thinking outside of the norm, shall we say of American society, I am totally with you. I'm like, energetics, they really do matter.
Breanna Owen (02:01)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (02:18)
they make a huge difference. And I love how you tap into it because we can't all be like just the the shoulds that lay it out there. They're like, well, you should email your list this many times a week and you should sell like this and you should be in this like particular arc. And I'm all about a marketing arc. Like I do believe you need to think it through. You can't just run out the door and start selling for most people. But
Breanna Owen (02:19)
Thank you. Yes. ⁓
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
02:47 The Power of Energetics in Marketing
Laura Kendrick (02:47)
There's also taking in who you are and how you can manage the things. not only your energy of like, no, I don't have the capacity to work on 17 sales pages in a single week, but also when you show up authentically, people see that and feel that, and then they respond authentically.
Breanna Owen (03:08)
That is energy. That is the energetics of it all. 100%. Yeah. I was even like in my scribbles last night, one of the things that I was like, what are things that make me just, when people say I just want to throat punch them? And one of them is like, just, just stand in your power. And one, I think it's the copywriter in me. And two, now that I know my human design, I know it has, it has something to do with certain parts of my human design, but I'm always like, what the fuck does that even mean?
Laura Kendrick (03:12)
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Breanna Owen (03:38)
Like I
hear you, but those are just words. You say it. And it's like, okay, that sounds deep, but also I don't know what that means. And the more that I have thought about it and have tried to like peel it back, like standing in your power really is being fully unapologetically you.
and whatever that looks like and however that was meant to be. And just like when you are just embrace who the fuck you are and show up in that place, that.
Laura Kendrick (04:02)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Breanna Owen (04:13)
would be standing in your power and embracing your power. And I know you feel this way too, like as copywriters, as content strategists for our people and whatever content we're creating for them, I'm like, I don't want you to be anyone else but you. And I'm not in your brain. This is probably part of the reason why people call me a wizard is because they're like, how did you get in my brain? How are you reading my mind right now? And it's like, we can't be in your brain.
Laura Kendrick (04:30)
Yeah.
Breanna Owen (04:43)
to pull it out for you, but like I don't want you to be anyone else. I don't want you to be me. I don't want you to be my other client that I talked to. I don't want you to be that person. I don't any two fucks about the fact that they did something and it worked well for them. That is them and you are you. So let's do the thing that will work well for you. And that is like standing in your power.
Laura Kendrick (04:44)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yes.
Right, preach my friend, preach. is, truly all the snaps. I mean, yes, we stand on the same pulpit and start screaming at people about it because you cannot take somebody else's framework, somebody else's template and just slap it on your business or you. I mean, this is across the board. You just can't take someone else's morning routine and expect that
Breanna Owen (05:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (05:39)
that's gonna work for you and suddenly you're gonna be a totally different person and see completely different results. We're so different, we're all different. Everything about it is different. It has to be customized.
Breanna Owen (05:44)
Yep.
Yes, yes. ⁓
05:46 Authenticity and Standing in Your Power
What we're wanting though, and this is what's so funny about it, and I'm still like workshopping how to articulate this well, is because we do those things. We take those templates and those strategies and those morning routines that work so well for other people. And we try to force ourselves into those mold ⁓ because we want the end result. We want, like, we don't want that, that surface level thing is not the thing.
Laura Kendrick (05:56)
Hmm.
Breanna Owen (06:17)
It's because it's so, in my words, would say like energetically aligned. It's so authentic to who they are. That's why it works. And honestly, like that's why it feels good to even to us to see them do that because we can tell that they are doing the thing that's good for them and that we can feel that energetic alignment. And that's what we're craving for ourselves. And we just think taking their, their strategy, their template, their workout routine.
is going to give us the same results. Which it's not, but the good news is there is a way for all of us to have that same like energetic alignment that just feels good to us and to our people who are seeing it and watching it and receiving it. Like, and it feels good to them too. And that's what makes people take action. That's what makes people go the next step.
Laura Kendrick (06:50)
Yeah. No.
Breanna Owen (07:16)
Because if it doesn't feel good, or if they're confused, or if they don't know what's going on, they ain't got time for that.
Laura Kendrick (07:25)
Yeah,
yeah. It's funny, and this is totally coming from the being the youngest of eight kids. Yeah, ⁓ yeah. There are eight of us. Okay, all right, fair, fair. This is probably why we're in this wavelength together in some ways. ⁓ So this rebellious streak is very strong in me. I definitely am like, okay, I like the rules so I can see them.
Breanna Owen (07:34)
Eight? I didn't really see there were eight of you. Okay. I'm the oldest of seven, so I hear you.
Laura Kendrick (07:54)
and then begin to break them. And I'm actually sitting here thinking about this right now as we speak, like as we're recording this, that my website needs an overhaul. And I've been putting it off for a while. And now I'm starting to think like I'm about to wipe away all the copywriter stuff and just freeform it and let it rip. Because the ones, the websites that I love the most and the ones that I personally,
Breanna Owen (08:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (08:24)
To be fair, am my buyer type, my like human design type. I am the person who skims unless honestly I have to for like a client. I am usually not going to read every single word on a website. So for me, it's like less is more for my personality and I am just the ones that stand out. For me are the ones that break all the rules. Those are the people who stick in my brain. What is my human design?
Breanna Owen (08:33)
Yeah. ⁓
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. What is your type?
Yeah.
08:47 Breaking the Rules: Customizing Your Approach
Laura Kendrick (08:54)
I can't remember, you're the one who told me, you like updated it recently. it was, somebody told me I was like manifesting generator and you were like, no, you're not.
Breanna Owen (08:56)
Did I? Did I look it up? ⁓ go me. That means I can look it up again
look here, your generator says. ⁓Laura Kendrick (09:08)
sweet. Okay.
Breanna Owen (09:11)
Oh, you're a 4'6". Okay, that's why. That's why. Okay, yeah. Yeah, you're a generator. Oh, girl. Okay. Well, kind of. Yeah, I mean, if you really want to go into it, yeah, a little bit. Because the 6 line in particular, which is your profile line, which is how you show up in the world, it's like your public role.
Laura Kendrick (09:16)
Can you could see my rebellious streak right there?
Mm-hmm.
Breanna Owen (09:30)
That six line in particular, ⁓ one, it lives in three phases. So it totally makes sense that you have like six lines or I feel like are always in transition of some kind, like moving from one job or we actually didn't we talk about this before we started recording how you're like everything's shifting and everything's changing. And you become this role model because of your lived experience. And so you go through life through, you know, zero to thirties, like trial and error phase. And so you're going
Laura Kendrick (09:54)
Mmm.
Breanna Owen (10:00)
through life testing out all sorts of things and then between 30 and 50 you tend to take a you tend to take a step back and you're like okay what have I learned what have I figured out you like more of that objective leadership because you're really studying your previous experiences and then after 50 you become this really wise Yoda everybody is seeking you out they want your
Laura Kendrick (10:03)
yeah, you were talking about this, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I cannot wait
to start speaking in sentences backwards. That's going to be so fun.
Breanna Owen (10:27)
You will have your own language. That will be your legacy, right? Right? And so, but there is something to be said with this like six line of like, no wonder you're like, no, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing it that way. I'm going to do it my own way and I will figure this out for myself. Thank you very much. So.
Laura Kendrick (10:32)
to be great.
Yeah.
And that's
the beauty of aligning the energetics. And I do feel like that's a part of every business owner's journey in some ways, is that we all start from drinking from the fire hose. We all start with that, like, OK, I got to learn all the things, and I have to do what all the people tell me to do. So I need to implement this system. I need to walk this path. And then eventually, you get to a point where you're like, fuck it. I need to do it my way.
and you become so much more in your own authority. And that's where I feel like the things really start to coalesce. And typically speaking, the businesses start to take off in a way, because some businesses do take off early on and I feel that, but also in a way that feels good and feels like good to the person who's.
Breanna Owen (11:17)
Yes!
Right.
Yes.
11:33 The Importance of Energetic Alignment
Laura Kendrick (11:35)
running it, but also
good to the people who are joining that business as clients or students or what have you. And that's where it becomes so like, ooh, like ooey gooey, delicious fun, because you are breaking the rules in your own way. Maybe not as rebelliously as I am, but in your own way, you're making the things work for you.
Breanna Owen (11:42)
Yes.
Bye.
Is it also breaking the rules if you are honoring your power, your authenticity, like your energetic design? Is it really breaking the rules if you're being true to you?
Laura Kendrick (12:11)
I mean, societally speaking, yes, but like personally speaking, ⁓ for sure, for sure. Like, shall we dive into the patriarchy right now? Yeah, yeah, I love it. No, but I agree that when you kind of click out of that space, no, it's definitely like, that's how we all should be. We shouldn't be fitting into this, you know.
Breanna Owen (12:16)
Well, who cares? They're all-
Really, they're all made up.
We ride at dawn.
Laura Kendrick (12:41)
fast fashion consumerism kind of thing. And that honestly is one of the tipping points for me this year in actually even starting these summits was this moment where I was sitting on a call and I know I've talked about this before. So if you've heard this before, you're welcome. But ⁓ I was sitting on a call with really successful women in the online space. Like some of them, the names you would know and hearing somebody say,
Breanna Owen (12:59)
you
Laura Kendrick (13:10)
I have a problem and nobody asked a question. They just started saying, have you tried this? Have you tried this? Have you tried this? And I'm like, whoa, man, take a step back. Cause if we're just like, you're literally at this level, at this insanely amazing level, you're still throwing spaghetti at the wall and you're still trying to like fit into what are the trends. It's no longer the frameworks, but what are the trends? this worked for one person. Cool. We should all try it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't.
Sure, if it feels aligned and it feels like it would work, great, rock on. But should that be the knee-jerk advice that we're giving each other? My opinion is no, that the first thing you should do is ask a fucking question.
Breanna Owen (13:50)
All
Yeah, 100%. I will, I just want to go back to like your website really quick though and let you know that ⁓ your, one of like your strongest energies within your chart is first of all, you are.
Laura Kendrick (14:04)
please.
Breanna Owen (14:16)
your life theme, life purpose is contagion, which is a very like contagious energy. And it's all about breaking the mold and transcending and going after the things that you want in a new and different way. So I just want to, want to affirm, and this is why it's like, well, you should do what everybody else is doing because those are the industry trends. Fuck that. No. Like that, like to circle, to bring those two things together, like that.
14:22 Navigating Business Trends and Personal Authenticity
Laura Kendrick (14:22)
Mm-hmm.
Breanna Owen (14:45)
doesn't mean anything because honestly if you were to well this is what industry trends are and this is what standards are and this these are the best performing websites look like this you would kill the soul and the joy and the life from your business and your brand
Laura Kendrick (15:04)
yeah.
Breanna Owen (15:09)
which is like the opposite of what you would want to do. And which is why it's like, I think the best question to ask after I'm thinking of doing this or this isn't working for me is kind of like, okay, but what do you want? If there were no trends, how would you go about it? And then it's like, well, why my favorite question to ask is like, why not? Why can't you do that? Okay. What would it look like to make that happen?
Laura Kendrick (15:28)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. like to, I
love digging down into the like, what's really going on underneath because I often find that when people say, especially when we're talking like, you know, business friends, if you will, the oftentimes when somebody's like, ⁓ like this didn't work as well. And it's like, well, let's, why? And more often than not,
Breanna Owen (16:00)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (16:02)
It's something else. It's like their heart wasn't in it. like they just didn't give a damn or their audience has shifted or you know, something is going on and there is the. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, or even better. One of my favorites is particularly in the launch space. This one kills me is the.
Breanna Owen (16:13)
Or they tried to force it. You tried to force it the whole time and then you're surprised that it didn't work?
Laura Kendrick (16:29)
they ran into it, they crashed into it. Like they didn't breathe and take time and they didn't build the full like marketing pieces and they just were like.
Breanna Owen (16:31)
Yes! my gosh.
They went eight
months of ghosting their list and then they wanted to launch immediately. And also their launch window was gonna be three days for a brand new offer they've never talked about.
Laura Kendrick (16:44)
Right, right. Yes, next week.
Yes, yeah, it's like, ⁓
Right, right. It is, yeah, it's those moments. It's like, okay. And to be fair, the women who were on the call that inspired this initially, they're not in that place for the most part, though I think we all forever do our own level of crashing and it just kind of becomes, it looks different than that. But yeah, they're like running without.
17:22 The Role of Emotional Authority in Decision Making
taking that pause and just being in it and being able to embrace the spaciousness and the energy of it all and being able to recognize our own energy. Because I think that's a huge piece of all this too, is we sometimes, and for some people more than others, get way too into the analytics, the numbers, the trends, the what am I supposed to be doing? And we don't stop and think about
Breanna Owen (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (17:51)
Well, how does this affect me and how much do I have to give and how like, is this the right season versus I'm on a schedule, which don't get me wrong, I do that too of like, I'm gonna release this then because it makes sense in like, you know, for my wanting of income or my wanting of like, here's vacation times and things and it seems like society's here but am I actually stopping and thinking about, well.
Does this feel good in this time frame to be embracing this conversation? And does it feel good for me to have to be active here? Or is it getting to a time where I want to be quieter and I need to be quieter? And those are the energetics that not enough of us are feeling out.
Breanna Owen (18:39)
Right? Well and to your point like 50 % of people have
in human design what would be called emotional authority and you're one of them Laura where you're you need to wait for clarity before you make a decision or commit to something especially on the bigger things that have to do with our business of am I launching this am I doing a new service do I want to take on this project things like that like 50 % of people genuinely need to wait for that clarity which
Laura Kendrick (18:48)
Mm.
Mmm.
Breanna Owen (19:14)
In business world, I always am like people. This is also why you can't crash launch because 50 % of people need to wait for clarity. They need time to make a decision. Not everybody is going to be able to make an immediate decision. And so we've, we've, right.
Laura Kendrick (19:26)
Yeah.
Yeah, very few can make an immediate decision. Yep.
Breanna Owen (19:34)
Like, so I have sacral authority, which is the one that is supposed to be able to make this gut decision. And I can make gut decisions, but that doesn't, sometimes like I don't have it right there. So even that, it's like I don't have a gut instinct at the moment. I need to wait. There's more information I need. Like there's something. Now there are times where I'm like, nope, I know this immediately. This is a yes or this is a no. I don't, uh-uh.
Laura Kendrick (20:01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Breanna Owen (20:04)
I don't need an extra second, but.
It doesn't always mean like that not every single thing can I make in the moment that I want to make it. Right? Like, so absolutely people need that time. ⁓ And having that to your point, like the pause of just like, let's, let's take a step back. Cause that's also a very reactive place. It's all, it's coming from such a reactive place and that I'm like, that doesn't feel good.
Laura Kendrick (20:13)
Yeah.
Yes. Yes.
No,
no, it doesn't.
20:28 The Impact of Energy on Communication
Breanna Owen (20:35)
It can't, doesn't,
it doesn't feel good to you. And I tried to remind people as an email strategist, an email copywriter of whatever emotional space you were in when you write an email, like that goes with the emails you send. So there's, there's something right. And if we think about it from like, when I got, okay, so, and this is really hard for me to say because I've dated my husband since I was 15. We just celebrated.
Laura Kendrick (20:49)
Mm-hmm.
For sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Breanna Owen (21:05)
16 years of marriage. I don't have a lot of experience but I've seen enough movies where it's like when you're out at a bar or out wherever and like a guy comes up to you and he's clingy and desperate you feel it. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (21:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Breanna Owen (21:24)
He doesn't have to use the words for you to know that that's where he's coming from and that doesn't feel good. And we do the same to our people. We do the same to our audience when we are reacting from this place of like, I need money. I need business. This isn't going well. I like, I don't even like an email list, but I have to send an email. So I'm going to send it like, David. No, please don't.
Laura Kendrick (21:49)
Yeah, yeah.
It's funny, I just did that to myself and I don't know why. I I like saw like a Facebook ad. No, no, no, no, but it's like, it's so, I recognize it the minute it happened that I was like, what the hell am I doing? But I saw a Facebook ad and it was a good ad and I was like, interesting, I'm wondering what this woman's teaching and it was like such a low ticket offer. And I just got in there and it was about like being a firmer about selling, which is always something I could.
Breanna Owen (21:56)
Sorry I wasn't yelling at you.
Laura Kendrick (22:17)
do better with because I'm not great at being firmer about that because I have this very laissez faire, like, you know, what comes will come. And now Breanna's leaning in to check where that is on my chart. ⁓ And so I I was like, let me see. And also, I'm always constantly learning. So I'm like, let me see what this person is talking about. And I consumed it and I tried it for one and like sent the email. And a minute later was like deep, deep regret. And.
Breanna Owen (22:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (22:47)
The thing is, is the email had a much lower click through rate than I usually get. And I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Like that just makes sense. It just, that energy was so off. The number of people who responded to it was like none. I'm like, yeah, cool.
Breanna Owen (23:05)
Which is data, right?
Laura Kendrick (23:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Breanna Owen (23:09)
That is still information. something happened and you were like, my energy was off. So now you have experienced to be like, ⁓ I now I know what that can feel like. That's not the only way it'll show up for you, but that's something that can feel like. And also the data supports that it's not worth it. It's not, it's not worth it. It's like, that's why I tell my clients all the time. Or when people are like, how often should I be emailing my list? And what's the consistent list? like, well, first of all, consistency.
Laura Kendrick (23:11)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
23:20 Conclusion and Resources from Breanna Owen
Breanna Owen (23:38)
nothing to do with the schedule. Consistency is not how often you are showing up. Consistency is are you being you when you show up. Are you consistently being you? I care way more about that because there has been enough data to show that when you force it, it doesn't go well for you. So if you are not feeling in the mood and there's a difference between like you know I'm not motivated I have to show up anyway but when
Laura Kendrick (23:43)
I love that.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Breanna Owen (24:08)
When you are like, no, I can tell that I'm trying to force this and sending this email or writing this content is just becoming a box that I check off my to-do list. It's not going to do the thing you want it to do. Like it's just not worth it. You would be better off taking that time and emotionally regulating and calming your nervous system, doing something that brings you joy and reminds you why you love the work that you do anyway. And then go write the email. I don't care if you don't send it every Tuesday at 10 a.m.
Laura Kendrick (24:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Breanna Owen (24:38)
I legit do not care about that. I care that you are in a good place when you write the email so that that is what goes out on your end.
Laura Kendrick (24:49)
That is such a perfect reframe. I love that. I love it. Now everyone knows why I love Breanna and needed her to come and talk to us. ⁓ yeah, it's just so good. OK. So share with the people where they can find you, because they're all going to want to find you.
Breanna Owen (24:59)
you
Yes, so I have loved and I feel like we didn't actually use the Words Holdistic ⁓ website in here. But like, bring it all back around even to that. I love having one place on my website that I can send to people and then I can update the links in there as I need and as are relevant. So.
Laura Kendrick (25:15)
That's all right.
Ooh, that's so
good. So it's like your own personal, like, you know, Link in bio crap. Yeah, I love that.
Breanna Owen (25:35)
Yeah, yes, it's a link,
like my link tree, but it's on my website so that it's with my domain and the SEO I control and all of the things, right? So my website is Awen, your mark, O-W-E-N, because that's my last name, your, spelled normally, mark, M-A-R-K, spelled normally, .com, backslash, links.
Laura Kendrick (25:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Breanna Owen (26:00)
as in plural. And that's the best way to go find my best resources and the services that I'm offering. I love working one on one with people. I do email audits, like all of that good stuff is there. And hopefully by the time this airs, I will have my new lead generator.
stood up, which is how to create content, the best content for your email list based off of your human design energy type. So that I know. That's why I'm just like, just go to links. Because that URL is TBD. And it'll be there for you no matter what. Right?
Laura Kendrick (26:32)
Can't wait for that. It's gonna be fun. Yeah. Yeah.
love it. I love
it. Well, thank you so much for coming and having this amazing conversation.
Breanna Owen (26:51)
Thank you for having me and I can't wait to hear all the others that you've been having.
Netflix-Style Personalization for Funnels.
Spot buyer patterns and serve “play next” offers/angles that reduce decision time and lift conversions.
-
Danielle Klemm specializes in conversion optimization for course creators and personal brands with sophisticated, values-driven audiences. She analyzes buyer behavior data hiding in your course lessons, forms, emails and websites to understand why interested leads don't convert, focusing on the psychological and emotional barriers that stop thoughtful buyers from taking action.
Unlike traditional conversion experts who rely on pressure tactics and urgency, Danielle works with founders whose audiences need trust and alignment before investing. Her approach has helped clients add over $120k to launches by identifying subtle behavioral patterns and creating conversion strategies that feel good for everyone involved.
With a background in funnel creation and buyer psychology, Danielle brings both analytical rigor and intuitive understanding to her work. She's passionate about helping ethical business owners build sustainable conversion systems that honor their values while serving their ideal customers' actual needs.
When she's not diving into conversion data, Danielle is building her neurodivergent hobby club and exploring how business can be both profitable and deeply aligned. -
-
00:00 Introduction to Buyer Signals
Laura Kendrick (00:00)
Danielle, Danielle, Danielle. This is going to be such a good topic. So, so pumped.
Danielle Klemm (00:07)
I'm so excited to be here because it's actually my first time talking about it live and publicly. So this is going to be my first time kind of talking more. Like I've done case studies over the years of like kind of a little bit of my process, but this is me fully going all in with you guys.
Laura Kendrick (00:21)
⁓ yay, I love being the first. That makes it more special. Okay, so before we dive in though, share with the people who the heck you are.
Danielle Klemm (00:24)
you
this question always is like fear inducing every time.
Laura Kendrick (00:37)
It totally is.
Danielle Klemm (00:39)
So I usually just say that I'm a sales funnel optimization specialist. So I help out a lot of course creators, people who are doing group programs, one to many offers, be able to use the buyer behaviors that are living inside their forms and page views to be able to create better, more informed copy and design decisions for a better launch and funnels going forward. Because if you're able to actually know with certainty what to change based on what people are doing and saying, your life gets a lot easier and your launch gets a lot easier too.
Laura Kendrick (01:06)
Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. Okay. So let's like dive right in because this is such a good topic and it's a it is about reading those audience like your audience is buying energy. And I just want to hear all the things you have to say about this because this is so fascinating to me. And I agree. I agree. I agree. But I want to hear your take on it because this is interesting.
Danielle Klemm (01:31)
Yeah, it's so funny because it's something that I didn't realize is kind of out of the norm since the way I try and explain the signals or like what they and i'll go more in depth in a second with it, but I find a lot of times we're used to hearing about like the quantitative we're to go into like math or like quantitative data we hear all about the metrics like ROAS CTRs all the things like have a percentage or number with it which can be really helpful for kind of like giving you a like little flag to put up and be like, okay, let's check that
But when you see it, then you're like, but what do I do? It's just like it's a flag if I doesn't say anything on it and the qualitative data Which is all this buyer signals is the context that flag is meant to show but people don't really know how to read it and I think about it often with like there even though I don't have Netflix anymore Netflix recommendations algorithm They have tuned this into a T where when you first get on Netflix and you don't really know like you don't watch it enough you'll just get basic recommendations for like action movies or you know the
thrillers, but when you start to actually watch more and especially when they find your patterns, the buyer, even though in this point it's kind of consumer behavior, but they'll see like the I've had this happen before. It's like strong female leads who overcomes adversity and it's like a super long section. But they they really understand it because they know if they can get that dialed in, then your watch rate will go up higher because you'll actually choose something faster and you'll probably also binge more. So you'll be a better consumer. And the same can be said for these buyers.
Laura Kendrick (02:44)
Yes.
03:00 Understanding Buyer Behavior
Danielle Klemm (03:00)
that most people already have inside of their current either funnel emails sales page what have you. We can definitely chat all about that there but I want to give context onto this is like the data that people just don't look at because they don't know how to it's harder to to talk about it's more a feeling language than it is like you know percentage or number.
Laura Kendrick (03:18)
Yeah.
But that's the thing is that people buy based on their feelings and their emotions. And it is very hard to figure out where people are in their emotional state by through the clicks. So I love that you're tapping into this because this is, I mean, this is powerful, powerful information.
Danielle Klemm (03:42)
It is. It's funny because like I am a nerd when it comes to like both data and otherwise. But like time travel movies don't get me started. I could talk about those forever. But in this case, it's something that a lot of those like bigger agencies. So for people who are in e-commerce or process like it's kind of part of the overarching conversion optimization where like you look at these pieces, but it's either for people who are making insane amount of money to where they can spend like thirty thousand dollars on an agency or they just don't really know where to
start and get overwhelmed because all they see is like their cost per lead going up higher or some like their views are going up high on their sales page like no one's clicking or buying. So I found that I wanted to kind of bridge the gap between these these elements that are really important and also not make it gross because also I think too often with buyer behaviors like knowing what your people are saying and doing can also like go into more of the manipulative tactic. If I had someone I let myself get sucked into a Facebook ad a while ago because I
like you have an interesting promise. I'm just going to like see what you do. And they had this thing where they were doing like around consumer behavior stuff where they had like after I signed up for it, I got the purchase information. I got like a join link fine. But I sent me two texts being like, hey, Danielle, your email was wrong. Can you type it in here for the text SMS, which basically is opting me in without actually telling me because if I'm typing my that kind of thing and it's those pieces where the conversion optimization I try
Laura Kendrick (05:06)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Klemm (05:12)
I don't want use that word too much because it's too often focused on like profit over numbers and just like trying to drill in more sales for the sake of like no ethics. So I'm trying to use these signals as a way to help people understand what the people are feeling, the buyer journey your people are going on rather than like trying to just make as many sales as possible regardless of your morals. Like that's not the place we live here and it's also not what you're about either.
Laura Kendrick (05:33)
Yeah, no.
The people here in this space definitely don't live by that. I do not call those people in very intentionally because yeah, that stuff is just like, and I personally live in a world of consent-based marketing. Like I actually don't like that. I think just yesterday I had to sign up for something and it was somebody I was getting.
Danielle Klemm (05:39)
Yes.
06:00 The Importance of Ethical Marketing
Laura Kendrick (06:00)
think it was getting on a coffee chat with them or something. And I was, I almost didn't do it because in it, it had the box of agree to more infer like more emails from them. And you couldn't click submit. Like you couldn't get the appointment without clicking that box. And I'm like, honey, like there's a point to this and somebody connected us and I'm going to do it. But honestly, I'm probably going to tell her. And also I am going to unsubscribe like nobody's business because that's, that's not cool.
Danielle Klemm (06:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (06:30)
That's not cool.
Danielle Klemm (06:31)
It's not. And that also, like if we take it back to like sales stuff, it's going to actually create more unsubscribes, people who don't want to be around you more, more blocking your emails. It's going to make your life harder. So that's why these signals are more about creating the context that people are already actually wanting you to do. But you just didn't know how to find the wording or like pick out the insights from it.
Laura Kendrick (06:38)
⁓ Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Okay. So what are these five signals that most people miss? I'm so curious from your like genius point to what they are.
Danielle Klemm (06:59)
You
Yeah, so so I guess I'll context and then I'll go into the signals because I keep forgetting to also my my origin story matters here. So I actually used to run a six figure ad and funnel agency. So I worked with people who, you know, were the seven figure entrepreneurs making like really great launches and bundles. And they come to me because they want ads, but also we'd inevitably have to look at their sales page and files before we run ads just because we have to make sure that like things are going smooth. And so I would look at a lot of the metrics
And
it'd be like, okay, the metrics are fine. But then there was still that like the the disconnect was still happening and I couldn't just be like, yeah, your CTR is fine. Like this is fine. It's not really working. And when I actually took time and I would start to do this work more than actual ads because ads inherently are pretty easy once you like dial in the messaging and stuff. And this is what gives you the messaging. So I had to realize that for a couple of my clients, they've had offers for like a year plus where they launched it so many times and they have the backing of like
testimonials, but they just didn't have either the right messaging or it was outdated messaging or for a lot of my clients, they added more into their programs because inevitably you're adding more support. And now you have this amazing program that no one understands, like the true value of it. So they're hesitating more. So there was a lot of these symptoms that helped me realize, OK, I need to find a better answer than just like, let's do more ad spend, let's do more ad copy. And so when I actually took time to run through their their buyer signals, that's when I actually got better.
the gene angles to use for copy. was able to tell them exactly like, here's what your buyers are actually needing to have us talk about in the sales page and emails more than what's already there. Like it gave me the context for this. So I'm saying that because this didn't come because I was just like, I want to look at data. It was because I kind of had to to help my clients better. And then more and more since I realized that I like this work, are fun, but they're not my favorite in terms of just like services. I like this better. So that was something that over the last few years, I've really kind of dialed in for more clients to
Help them in this part so their ads do better launch to do better like everything in that works But it started because too often we're we look at just the number base metrics and it doesn't work So I'm saying that because the signals I'm not just gonna have you be like just check stuff for fun because like I want you to look at more things It actually came because I had to look at like all of their pieces of forms and find what actually Consistently gave me information. So now that I gave you a crazy amount of context. Let's go into the signals So the first one that is like one of my favorites that I will talk about forever
is hesitation language. So this is where you see it a lot in why didn't they buy surveys like after courses you get it in objections or DMs from people who are like I'm thinking about this program but blank or like I have a question about blank like those are kind of the things that you see often and those are hesitation language because people haven't bought yet but they are kind of like on the precipice of buying and it's interesting because again a lot of us already have this I had one of my current clients who I'm gonna be bringing
09:02 Identifying Key Buyer Signals
Laura Kendrick (09:34)
Mmm.
Danielle Klemm (10:01)
on, she she had to go through her inbox for eight years because she had so many of these questions just living in her inbox from her courses throughout the years. She's never had time because we forget that these things are just living somewhere else. We just don't ever pull from them because we see this and we see like, you know, I have a program and we're used to seeing the objections around like money, time. I don't know if it's going to be right for me. And all of those are true. But there's actually a lot more like a lot more context happening.
Laura Kendrick (10:06)
my gosh.
Danielle Klemm (10:31)
for that than just like a money-based thing. And I think you understand, especially with copy. And that was something that I had to realize is, I got at another client of mine who came on and she had a program that was like for eight years and she had 800 why didn't they buy responses.
Laura Kendrick (10:32)
for sure. Yeah, for sure.
man
Danielle Klemm (10:46)
800, which is bonkers. ⁓ And I had to realize, OK, obviously they're always going to say this more like the time and money. But inside of that, we can find better themes if we ask better questions, too. And they're the best people to look at because they're the ones who were on the like hovering over the checkout page. But we didn't know what was going on. And so looking at those two pieces of like the hesitation language is like bare minimum, like the number one place I love to look. If you're someone who's like, hey, I don't really have that. I have a new program or
Laura Kendrick (10:57)
Yep.
Danielle Klemm (11:16)
I just don't have like the the the audience size for that yet to have enough. Why didn't they buy to look at? This is where then I love a good hot jar Microsoft Clarity heat map stuff. So this is where we go more on the conversion optimization side where you can add a piece of code and have a YouTube video about this that allows you be able to see depending on if people, you know, accept the cookies or whatnot, but allowed them to see what they're going and clicking on or not clicking on on your sales page. And this is not right
11:46 Leveraging Testimonials for Insights
and day difference. And I say that because even though I am a nerd and I love looking at stuff like this, I know for lot of people they don't understand like why this matters or what to look at. But like, for example, a client of mine who we did this for, she had a program she's had for years and she was going on like her third launch and we were able to actually look into her like hot chart. She uses Microsoft Clarity because she's on WordPress. Both of them do the same thing. They're both free. Live your life, choose whatever you want. ⁓ But we noticed on her FAQ
Laura Kendrick (12:13)
Yeah.
Danielle Klemm (12:16)
She has like 15 FAQs, which is insane. But we were able to see from the hot jar exactly which ones they clicked the most. And a lot of them were farther down the FAQ section and mostly about them is good for advanced people versus beginners. So we realized just from that, we need to create more content, have it be better better up top in the sales page talking about the more advanced, but also pulling in testimonials and case studies from more advanced people. And then also going to emails like that one insight
Laura Kendrick (12:32)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Danielle Klemm (12:46)
from a pattern of like five different people who clicked on it made us be able to have certainty on knowing what to fix. So when I'm trying to think about that, and she also, this was just me looking at her part of her launch data from her last launch of like her last hot jar stuff, but then also her evergreen, because she had one that was ongoing enrollment as well. So I say that those two are like my favorite two places to look when you're starting with these signals, because either you have a lot of information for the objections to work with or you have a lot of heat.
I'll go into the other three, but I want to pause. Do you have any questions before I go further? ⁓
Laura Kendrick (13:22)
No,
I think that's, I mean, it's so insightful to me. I agree with you. Being able to see where people click is so important and hearing how, like how they respond to why they bought or why they didn't buy. There is so much underlying. I think grounding people in this idea that yes, you do here. I don't have the time. I don't have the money. But at the end of the day, it's just a fucking excuse because really and truly, I mean, I have pulled.
ludicrous amounts of money that I should not have been spending out of thin air when I desperately wanted something like that doesn't stop me. I find a way I bend like, you know, the world to my whims. So I think that being able to go underneath to dig deeper is so pivotal in understanding what's really going on with your people, because those two will always be thrown out. And at the end of the day, they are
a little bit of bullshit. Like it's because if you really wanted it, you would find a way, you know?
Danielle Klemm (14:26)
And that's the thing too, is that I try and say this often whenever you get those two responses, I always believe there is always gonna be people who genuinely don't have the money, generally don't have the time, but let's say like a solid like 70, 80%, that's probably just not the case, especially if you're working with like business owners. So in that case, I don't.
Laura Kendrick (14:37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We spend insane amounts of money on our businesses that we won't
Danielle Klemm (14:43)
Let's talk about that.
Laura Kendrick (14:43)
spend on ourselves.
Danielle Klemm (14:45)
spent the first few years of my business is insane. And that's kind of, a reminder for people who see that in your responses or even in your objections is a thing to remember is what that actually is showing you and what you can start with is that they don't see either enough of a relevancy or enough of a perceived value to buy right now. So that gives you a place to start that kind of like flag marker. And these other signals can give you more context then on what can create that. So if we were thinking about the client
15:02 The Role of Email Metrics
Laura Kendrick (15:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Danielle Klemm (15:13)
who had the advanced issue. So for her, if we were to look at her, the objection language, a lot of it was like, I don't know if it's the right time for me, da da. And then we saw the FAQ section of the advanced part, that's part of that perceived value, but also the relevancy. And that's when we're able to create that context for her to know what to change on her copy. So that's why it all kind of blends together. And it's why I'm not a fan of saying, there's one best signal out there, like one best data form. I think that's just giving people false hope and not the whole story.
Laura Kendrick (15:38)
Bye.
It always depends. Yes,
I am a huge proponent of there is no one answer for anything. There is no one framework that will work for everything. You can't just take what someone else's success and slap it on your business and expect it to behave in exactly the same way because it's all different. It all depends. It's all a different audience. It's all a different founder. It's all a different offer. It's just all different.
Danielle Klemm (15:43)
rest.
Literally is and I like I want to do like a mic drop for that cuz like yeah, that's just that I agree with that immediately so I'll try and keep that as like the biggest thing to remember here when I'm saying these signals because although there are things that I use like I usually almost all five with most of my clients I do think it's important to realize like although I love heat maps and abduction language Maybe you don't have a lot of them or maybe you don't find enough Things to extract from that immediately. That's okay and Remembering that all of this is an experiment like business in general and life in
Laura Kendrick (16:38)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle Klemm (16:39)
in as an experiment. So it's a playing around, exactly.
Laura Kendrick (16:39)
It's a playground. Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle Klemm (16:42)
So we talked about my two kind of like favorites to start with. These other ones get where you kind of usually need someone else to help out, not because you have to, but because we're too close to it. So like one of my favorite things to go into for clients like that who had like almost all of my clients to come to me, because usually they come after they have sold or they've had their program for at least like a long or two or a couple of months. They've already had things where they realize like, OK, I want to add in more modules about this or I
Laura Kendrick (16:51)
Mmm.
Danielle Klemm (17:09)
to add in more emails and like calls about this. Like it adds, it starts to become more of this flagship offer that originally maybe it wasn't meant to be. So when that happens, then I have to look at like the course content gold mines, what I call it, where like people too often there is like hidden treasure that is that is really hiding in your lessons and modules because too often we forget to like we create the thing, we let it go out there and then we just never look at our stuff again unless we're going to like update it. And a lot of times
especially
when I'm trying to find messaging angles and like USP. So like things like make your product, good Lord program, your program really unique to your person. That's one of the best places to find the actual answers because it's already hidden. Like you either maybe created some calculators or right now, they're like all the rage. But like GPT is or you had this, for example, one of my clients where she just has so much content is actually bonkers. But something she even have on her sales page and just had this this course for
over a year, she does one to one audits, unlimited one to one audits in her program under $1,000 for a group program. Yeah, that face is the part that is insane. So I say that because we wouldn't have realized that and so we started to work together that it wasn't even on her page. Then from that, I had to look and see she had over 50 plus GPT she created for people because she needed to help figure out how to help with the blog outline. Let me solve this problem for you. Do this thing.
18:08 Conclusion and Resources
problem for you. All of these things that actually solve people's problems better, but weren't being communicated well enough and shown well enough on the sales page and launches to help people see like, this isn't overwhelming. Because if you were to see like their their, you know, their course lessons site map bonkers. So using that as kind of like your deep dive. And that's why I it's harder for someone to go through, even for my own programs, is because you're too close to it and you don't really know what people are wanting from it because you're just you're close. And I don't say it's because I'm
Laura Kendrick (18:44)
Hmm.
Danielle Klemm (19:08)
trying to be like, you have to hire me. It's just legitimately, it is hard.
Laura Kendrick (19:11)
No,
I agree. I actually know somebody out in the world who is a copywriter for copywriters. Like this, it's not a joke. I mean, as we're having this conversation, which I hope to like dear universe, make sure that this is not the case when this goes live. But my website, I specialize in writing people's websites and my website is a disaster right now. So yes, 100%. We...
We are, it's way easier to do our genius on somebody else's stuff than it is to do our own. Like, I feel like it's kind of that story of the, you know, couples therapist who's just had like 17 divorces. Yeah, makes sense. Got it.
Danielle Klemm (19:52)
Yeah, no it is and that's something that even like myself similar to you I often have that issue and like I I notice I have to like catch myself because I also will over explain things because my brain's like so close to I'm like I just want to tell you all the things and that's where it really does help to have someone who's able to partner with you as long as you trust them but that's like my the way that I find a lot of those pieces and like why this program is super unique is actually it's already something you've created but you just don't know how to look and find the pieces that actually matter for your people so that
Laura Kendrick (20:02)
Mm.
Danielle Klemm (20:22)
That's something that I always try and add in. The other two that I'll go into is testimonials. And I don't mean it like the whole like just doing screenshots. I actually have a whole video ranking like which type of testimonials are best for conversions and like which ones to choose for yourself because too often we just like slap up, either we slap up a lot of screenshots and like written stuff and just call it a day being like more testimonials is better. Not thinking that quality over quantity does matter here actually. But also we have a lot of opportunity with the people in our programs.
Laura Kendrick (20:45)
Right? Yeah.
Danielle Klemm (20:52)
if we've a good enough job of like courses and programs and like educating people and having them trust us into creating more of like story arc hero arc type testimonials as well. So when I'm looking at buyer signals for the testimonials, it's me trying to find obviously the language that they say, but too often and I say this and I'll keep shouting it from the rooftop because it's one of my biggest pet peeves is too often we are building testimonial either forms or calls focusing too much on the after where we like they had they lost 10 pounds.
like, you know, an amazing transformation, but you forget that your current people, the the leads, ideal clients are only relating to their before a little to the middle, but only to the before where they're at before they joined. And so for me, one of my roles is to try and then look through. It's also my clients have a lot of testimonials are just thrown up everywhere. I've gotten like four folders worth of people who weren't even using testimonials, just like thrown everywhere and have to help them basically map. OK, what current testimonial do you have that we can
Laura Kendrick (21:32)
Yeah.
Danielle Klemm (21:51)
and
also map with an objection. So going back to the advanced buyer, if I'm gonna help her first expand her testimonials into more case studies, then it's like, how can I map then this type of testimonial to help address the advanced buyer? Not just from an actual angle perspective, but from that before where it's like saying things like, was hesitant to join, so I thought this was like another beginner program, that kind of thing. like, of mapping with objections with your testimonials is so important.
Laura Kendrick (22:12)
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. What's the last one? I'm dying.
Danielle Klemm (22:18)
The final one, which you already
know is the only one that I'm like leaving in because I it's important. It's just not qualitative is actual email click through rates. I will say like it's one of those things where, yes, it is still hard to really understand the context for. It's why I have at the final bottom, though.
Laura Kendrick (22:28)
Mmm.
Danielle Klemm (22:35)
because I love that for all the stuff that you just learned from the four signals, using that to test before you fully put it on the sales page and email. So I use that as kind of like a confirmation tool than just like a signal, but it is a signal because if you do it right and you have them like choose a couple of things or like click certain things, it does give you answers. It's just not the exact qualitative. So it's like an asterisk, but it is a signal.
Laura Kendrick (22:43)
I love that.
Yeah, and it's such a, that's, love that view on it, that it's a test. That's amazing. Okay, you just gave so much goodness. So let's, like, you gotta tell the people where they can find you.
Danielle Klemm (23:13)
Yeah, so I am at denielclem.com and as of the time this recording airs, I will have a actual lead magnet PDF. That's the five buyer signals. So you can you guys can go into that. I'll give a lot more information there and also give more context on like client stuff that examples for that along with also any scorecard you can give for yourself to try and figure out which one's best for you. But yeah, I'm all in denial. I'm I'm usually hanging out either on YouTube or threads. Instagram I have a love hate relationship with.
Laura Kendrick (23:23)
We'll link to it.
Yeah, don't
Danielle Klemm (23:43)
Don't
Laura Kendrick (23:43)
we all? Yeah.
Danielle Klemm (23:44)
we all? But yeah, that's usually where I'm at right now.
Laura Kendrick (23:47)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Danielle, for sharing this. This has been so insightful and I'm excited to play in your lead magnet, honestly, because it's adding, even for me, somebody who plays in this stuff all the time, it's adding a little bit of nuance and it's adding a slightly different lens to look at it through. So ⁓ I'm in love. It's amazing.
Danielle Klemm (24:05)
Thank you so much and thank you guys for listening.
Qualify, Don’t Just Collect.
Make the freebie a stepping stone to your paid offer so the people joining your list are future buyers, not random downloads.
-
I'm Melissa McKenzie. As a mom of 5 and full-time business owner, I don’t have time to be online 24/7...or chase every new social media trend. I’m guessing you don’t either. That’s why my website is built to do the heavy lifting: bringing in new subscribers, making daily low-ticket sales that cover my ad spend, and warming up leads for my high-ticket service—all while I’m living real life.
But it’s not just me, hundreds of my 1:1 clients have launched sites that now book clients on autopilot, grow their list consistently, and sell low-ticket offers without them having to be “on” all the time.
I’ve built, coached, and collaborated on over 400 websites over the past 11+ years, helping clients and students set up systems that start working within 24 hours of going live. -
The Must-Have Website Launch Blueprint
Boost Your Website’s Organic Traffic: The Must-Have Website Launch Blueprint
Stop hoping visitors will show up to your corner of the internet. Take the steps to drive real traffic to your site with this simple, actionable guide.
-
00:00 Introduction to Melissa McKenzie
Laura Kendrick (00:01)
Yay, Melissa.
Melissa (00:03)
Hello, it's so good to be here.
Laura Kendrick (00:06)
Now, thank you for being here. I'm very excited that you're here and I'm excited for this conversation. This is important. And also one of the things that I think gets a little misstepped or misunderstood in some ways. So I'm just pumped about it. But before we dive in, tell the people who don't know who you are a little bit about who you are.
Melissa (00:12)
We do.
Yeah, I would love to. So I am Melissa McKenzie. I married my high school sweetheart. We have five kiddos and they are 10 and under. So life is so full right now. It's so good though. I went to school for graphic design and web design ⁓ and then kind of got thrown into entrepreneurship when we had twins like right off the bat. Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (00:52)
Yeah, that'll do it
Melissa (00:55)
And so I just, fell in love with branding first and then I was like, I really just want a hold of someone's brand. And so I moved into websites because I was like, now I can kind of like control how they're using their branding. And then over the years, I've kind of just as, as I've been running the business and seeing like the back ends and learning the back ends and everything, I realized how much more.
is involved, how many more puzzle pieces are involved with your website and how it really can like lead to everything else like your email list which we'll talk about today. And so I've been in the industry for over 11 years now and I just love it. I like I would design sites for free like I just love it.
Laura Kendrick (01:30)
Yes.
That is true love. I love that. It's ⁓ yeah. And I love what you said there about all the things that play into a website because that's why we're really talking about this. People so often just slap up a pretty picture themselves and some words that they think are kitschy and they're like, look, my website's done. And it's like, my gosh, no, like it can do so much more for you other than just be kind of your like,
you know, mark in the sand of like, I am here. And that's kind of the meat of all of this. So I'm so glad you said it. And I'm so glad you said it in that way.
Melissa (02:17)
Okay.
I also think it's like, that's why so many people quit. Like you see so many businesses fail. And like I think they say it takes like seven years to see if a business is gonna succeed. And it's like, there's this misconception that like, ⁓ I'm post my site and then people are gonna flock to it and I am gonna sell. And it's like, the sad truth is no one knows you just published your website. You gotta send the traffic.
Laura Kendrick (02:29)
Mm, yeah.
Yes.
02:51 The Importance of a Website Beyond Aesthetics
Right. Right. Yeah. That's so
true. That's so true. And we, we talked to Laura about SEO on this. So yeah, that's, that is such a good point too, cause there are so, there's so many times in the beginning, especially when there is no traffic to your website or it's like you and your mom, ⁓ that you're sitting here and you have all this kind of trepidation of like, I'm releasing it into the wild or I'm making a change. And at the end of the day, it's like,
Google didn't even notice. Like, it's fine.
Melissa (03:22)
He's not even gonna tell Google it was there.
Laura Kendrick (03:26)
Yeah, yeah. We have to
work really hard to get Google to notice and we have to work really hard to get the people there, which is this perfect segue into what we're talking about because once the people land on the site outside of, of course, if you're in like a sales campaign, like that's a different beast where you're bringing them to a sales place and we're taking them down a funnel. We're looking for that sale, but the people who aren't quite there yet or stumbled upon our page because
of Google or because of some other kind of maneuvering path, I don't even know. Yeah, the ways they got there. We're talking today about how to capture those people.
Melissa (04:02)
Instagram, Pinterest.
Yeah, and I think it's kind of like this mind mindset shift you have to have of like when someone visits your site, they are not automatically a buyer or a client. It's not.
Laura Kendrick (04:22)
Mmm, yet.
Melissa (04:25)
People are typically not going to your site unless we're sending them to a sales page from an email. ⁓ They're not going there to buy typically. They're going there to kind of explore, see who you are, get information if you are the person that can help them. And also like, I like to think about how am I using sites? So like if I'm scrolling on...
Facebook Instagram, whatever and I'm like, oh that's really cool like maybe I fell for an ad because I do I fall for them and I click on it and I'm like I want to buy that but my wallet It's I'm in bed my wallets like by the door I am NOT gonna go get up and get my wallet and it's not safe to my phone and or you know, there's all this excuses like I want to you know
Laura Kendrick (04:58)
We all do, yeah.
Melissa (05:18)
if it's like a shirt, I want to lose 10 pounds first. Like, they're not ready, but they're interested. And so, if we're not capturing their email address, a way to get a hold of them and stay in front of them...
Laura Kendrick (05:23)
Yes.
Melissa (05:35)
they're going to forget all about you. I mean, there's been times, I think it was Poppy, the Poppy soda, when it like first came out, I was like, I am going to get a pack of that. But like not now. Like I'm just going to, you know, wait for a few weeks or wait until I see a flavor I want. And I literally forgot the name of the brand. And I was like, I wish you would email me. Who are you? Because I want to order now, but I can't remember who you were.
Laura Kendrick (05:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
05:56 Capturing Visitor Interest and Email Addresses
Melissa (06:05)
And so I think it's such a benefit to your business to have a system in place to capture the emails to your list on your website so that you can stay in front of mine and when they are ready they get that email from you and they're like yeah I want to go buy from Lyssa I'm ready for a website now.
Laura Kendrick (06:18)
Yeah.
I love the I love the way you put that too because I feel like so often when we're in our early moments of especially as women in our business many of us have that thought process of like but I don't want to annoy people and That's the thing. You're not annoying them. They are always given the grace of that unsubscribe button So if you are annoying them, they'll they'll peace out if there's some if you're not the right fit for them They'll leave. I mean heck. I have really good friends who I'm like, I love you
You have to unsubscribe because my inbox is too full and I know who you are. It's all good. but that's good problem to have somebody who's not on your list and still buying from you. But it's the, think that is an interesting shift that many of us need to settle into. And it's so true because they're so, that's actually one of my complaints about Instagram that I will find something and I'll be like, this rocked my world. And there's no good way.
Melissa (07:03)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (07:24)
to remember that account. Like, yes, you can follow it. Yes, you can like it, but how many accounts do you follow? How many things have you liked? And how many things have I saved over the years and is in some safe folder? I don't even know how to get to it, but I put things there sometimes. I'm like, yeah, this is the thing. So I'll end up like screenshotting stuff and I'll, or I'll reference something. I'm like, I can't remember their name, but I remember all the details. We don't want that to happen to you, especially to your website where you owned that real estate and you really want to make sure that that
Melissa (07:27)
I know.
Yeah.
Okay.
Laura Kendrick (07:53)
into the right person's brain at the right time because I mean, if we're looking at it with social media being top of the funnel or like how you're kind of communicating with people to begin with, you really do have to get them to your site or some facsimile of it in order to get them to the bottom of the funnel in order to get them to convert. So it's so important that you get them to that piece and them remembering that that piece exists is key.
Melissa (08:20)
Yeah. Now,
it really is all about like being the one in front of them at the right time.
Laura Kendrick (08:28)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh my gosh, for sure. How, okay, so how do you look at this? Because I think, I mean, most of the people who are listening to this have heard of a lead magnet. Most of them have a lead magnet. They're like doing some facet, but I'm really curious from a branding perspective, from a design perspective in particular, but also from just your perspective in general, how, how do you see this as like, how do you use your lead magnet with your website?
08:57 Creating Effective Lead Magnets
Melissa (08:57)
Yeah, so I think, one, I just have to put the whole newsletter thing, like sign up for my newsletter, like, if that's you, that's okay. We can fix it. It's not the end of the world. But people are not going to sign up for your newsletter unless there's an incentive. So that's where the lead magnet, the freebies come in. You're giving them something in exchange for their email address. The newsletter thing, it was great.
Laura Kendrick (09:04)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (09:26)
five, 10 years ago? No, and it's like everybody's inbox is full of emails and so you need to give them something like Juicy, a quick win. And so I tell people, think it can also, like freebies can hold business owners up. Like you either think I have to recreate a freebie all the time,
Laura Kendrick (09:28)
Nobody reads that stuff anymore, I feel like. Yeah.
Melissa (09:54)
until I get it just right or I'm going to spend a million hours on it until it's perfect. The reality is this thing is free and no one wants to be bogged down with and overwhelmed with information. They need a quick win. So I tell people set your timer for two hours.
Laura Kendrick (10:10)
for sure.
Melissa (10:14)
And like, do not take more than two hours to create this thing. You are the expert. You have the information that they're looking for. Yes, they can probably go get it on Google, ChatQBT, but you're saving them time and you're putting your expert angle on it. Yeah. And it's like right in front of them on your site. So spend no more than two hours. And if it flops, don't recreate it. Change the title.
Laura Kendrick (10:29)
Yes, you're putting it through your lens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa (10:43)
to a different angle of what's in it. Like it might just be your title. And so I think people make it this like big overwhelming task where they spend months and months and months on it. And it's like, no, just make something, get it up, look at the data. If you need to change the title, change the title. Like there's usually a pattern of what questions your ideal clients are asking.
Laura Kendrick (10:45)
Yes.
Melissa (11:10)
And it's like, look at those, like create a solution to those questions you commonly get asked.
Laura Kendrick (11:17)
funny in my strategist brain, I always think of lead magnets. This is what I tell my clients too. That when you're thinking about, if you're thinking about laddering your offers, that the best way to think about a lead magnet is to have it be, it's something that gives them a real tangible dopamine hit win. But also at the same time is kind of pulling back a curtain and shining a light on, but there's a bigger problem back here.
Melissa (11:37)
Yeah.
Yes.
11:46 Qualifying Leads Through Lead Magnets
Laura Kendrick (11:46)
And then you're able to kind of walk them up and depending on how your offers are structured, how much like of you is involved. But in the lead magnet, it is, it's all they're doing it by themselves. And it really should be a quick win because let's be really honest. How many people have like a calculator or spreadsheet or something like that? And don't get me wrong. I've developed them too for myself, like been there, done that. But I mean, how many have I downloaded and actually used?
Melissa (12:16)
Yeah.
Laura Kendrick (12:18)
So it's something you want people to actually use, not just create dust in their inbox in which they're not going to get the dopamine hit. They're not going to get the win. And then they're going to hit unsubscribe before they get out of their welcome sequence.
Melissa (12:33)
Yeah, 100%. It needs to lead to your bigger offer.
Laura Kendrick (12:37)
Yes, I think that's a mistake that a lot of people make too, especially in early days, but even outside of early days. They just aren't thinking about that. They're just thinking about the fact of how can I get more people on my list? Oh, maybe they'll jump at this. Maybe they'll jump at that. And they don't think about like how, but really what we're doing here is we're not only giving them that win, but we're creating the mind shift piece as well that makes them go, I need more help.
Melissa (12:44)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (13:07)
I want to work with you. You're the right person or even the mind shift of, you're not my right person. Cool. Like that's a good shift to have as well. But we're, is part of a bigger, it's a one piece of a puzzle of like a much bigger picture. And it's, that is definitely miss. I'm really glad that you pointed that out.
Melissa (13:28)
Yeah, think, know, there's, 10 years ago, there was like a bunch of lifestyle bloggers and, you know, they would like pick like, I don't know, my top five makeup products, you know, and it's like, they're selling a course, like, but it's not, it does not match up to leading to the course. And so it's like, yeah, you're getting emails, but they're not qualified leads. What we're really doing is like qualifying.
Laura Kendrick (13:35)
Mm, yeah.
Melissa (13:58)
the lead.
Laura Kendrick (13:58)
Yes.
And this is especially true if it's one-on-one work you do or like high touch work or if it's, very high, ⁓ yes, thank you. my God. First day of school for the kids and my brain went on the bus with them. ⁓ but yes, the, I, both of those things, it really, really matters. Cause first of all, you really want to qualify if you have to work one-on-one with somebody or high touch. Cause if they suck like,
Melissa (14:08)
You're good.
you
Laura Kendrick (14:25)
that's gonna be a really unfun period of time for you. Like, no, thank you. And then the other bit is if it's high ticket, they really have to psychologically get themselves there. They have to see the value in it. They have to see the value in you and being wanting to actually invest in you to invest in themselves.
Melissa (14:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, like, you had said, like, how the best way to do this from a website point of view. So I think people create this, they slap it on their site, like one place, and they call it done. I like to...
Laura Kendrick (14:48)
interesting.
Mmm, yeah.
14:54 Optimizing Website for Lead Capture
Melissa (15:07)
Repeat that, so I always put it below the hero section. So that hero section is like that very top section before you have to scroll on your homepage. I put it right after that before we go into anything else because it's like, if they're not gonna scroll, we're at least trying to get them on our email list. So I highlighted there and instead of, ⁓
Laura Kendrick (15:27)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (15:32)
There's different ways you can do it. You can have them put in their email and name right there and grab it. I like to send them, like the button actually sends them to basically a sales page for this freebie. Even though it's free, you're still selling the fact that they need it because inboxes.
Laura Kendrick (15:51)
That's a good nuance you pointed
out. Yeah. ⁓
Melissa (15:54)
Inboxes are so full, right? It's like
they're thinking in the back of their head, like, do I really want to fill my inbox with her emails? Is this worth it? So I actually have an opt-in page where we're selling the freebie. We're telling them what they're getting, what are the wins, what's the transformation. ⁓
And that whole page, the sole purpose, the only action they can take on it is signing up for it. We're hiding the header, we're hiding the footer, there's no links anywhere else to your site. ⁓ And then the other great thing you can do with that page is run ads to it. So instead of just running ads to a non-scrolling page where it's just the picture of the 3D and the...
Information you got put in like we're selling them on like this is why you need this ⁓ and I Sprinkle that throughout the site, so it's not just on the home page It's on all the pages that make sense so maybe it's in the footer Maybe it's you know below the blog bureau section wherever it may fit within a blog ⁓ If it pertains to what you're talking about in that blog
Throw it in there. So you're.
Laura Kendrick (17:16)
Yeah,
I think about what you just said too on the homepage that the, have shifted that thought process in blogs too and like sub stacks and all sorts, all the places where you would put a subscribe button in essence, instead of oftentimes people drop it at the very bottom and they're just like, well you read this whole thing, do this. Yeah, but you're missing out on a lot of people who don't make it to the bottom. And so dropping it higher on the page.
Melissa (17:29)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (17:41)
or even dropping it in more than one place on the page where it is at that bottom point, but then also at the top. I think that's really interesting and a really good way to grab more people, especially in what you're talking about, because every time from a UX perspective, every time somebody clicks a button that's referred to as friction, which means it's some, it's, it's resistance. Like you're asking somebody to take action, which every action.
18:02 Reducing Friction in User Experience
Melissa (18:02)
Thank
Laura Kendrick (18:09)
big ask. And so it's you want to reduce as much asking as possible. But but you also can't take it to nothing because they're not you can't just have your homepage be like, here, give me 20 grand. It's just not going to happen. So you have to like have this lovely balance. And I love what you're saying of sending them to the landing page for the freebie or the lead magnet. That's amazing. But also that's a piece of friction.
Melissa (18:20)
your inbox.
Laura Kendrick (18:38)
So if you're gonna do that, would high, like I love the idea of moving that button up higher so that you're kind of, you're also not asking the friction of getting to the bottom of the page. Cause that too is friction and now you have like doubled down. So if we're putting it higher up on the page, it's reducing a bit of friction when we're asking for a bit more. So good.
Melissa (18:58)
Yeah, and I think like, you know, depending on your price point.
what you're selling, all of that. You can decide on that first one under the hero section on the homepage. Are we going to do just they can grab it right there and then putting their name and email address and then maybe the pop-up on your site for the freebie goes to that you know that longer opt-in page or you just use that opt-in page for ads. There's there's so many different ways and you can test it ⁓ but yeah the the whole friction thing Amazon Prime has done like the best job in that.
Laura Kendrick (19:13)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (19:33)
entire world. Like you could just click one button and it comes into your door.
Laura Kendrick (19:36)
One click buying. Yep. Yep.
Yeah. And even the button they have, mean, yeah, they are really good at it. I mean, they're Amazon. They have a huge team of people. even if you scroll to the bottom, like if you're reading reviews, there's always that button that's like scroll back to the top. So you don't have to actually physically scroll your fingers on your phone or on your computer. You can literally click a button and bounce right back to where.
Melissa (19:53)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (20:02)
you can buy where that button is right there. And isn't it the one click buy like the buy button moves with you now, which is like that is a complete removal of friction while still giving you an unbelievable amount of information. We cannot all be Amazon. And I don't encourage everyone to be Amazon. But that is a really stellar example, Melissa, of, yeah, reducing friction. And they've spent billions of dollars to make that happen. Yeah.
Melissa (20:28)
⁓ every year it gets faster and faster.
Every year I'm like, whoa, now I can tell Alexa it's the order. But yeah, and one quick note about having to scroll to the top. Put your navigation links in your footer. There's a whole other menu there. And you're not having to scroll back up to go to your services page. It's right at the bottom there.
Laura Kendrick (20:36)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
20:54 Leveraging Tripwires for Increased Revenue
And in that space too, again, from UX perspective, you can put in more things in the footer than you would at the top, because you don't want to inundate people at the top. You want just kind of the bare bones. But then also, people have an expectation that there are certain things that are down there. So like, for instance, I am working currently on updating my press page. And if you go to my site,
Melissa (21:09)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Kendrick (21:20)
I don't even think it's linked at the moment because it's currently like under deep construction. But ⁓ it will be back up by the time this releases. And it's not in the header, but it is in the footer. So if you're looking for it, and that's some place, something that people would think of, like when they get to the bottom, these are things that might be here. Sometimes like a contact us page or contact me page is not, does not have to be in your top footer. But people do expect.
when they, if they scroll all the way to the bottom, they will find that in the footer. So it's, you couldn't really play about and your footer is important and often forgotten in real estate. yeah, I love that advice. That's so good. I need last amazing tips. Cause I mean, honestly, I feel like we just scratched the surface here and we could keep going for ages. This is going to, yeah.
Melissa (22:10)
We did.
There's like one more puzzle piece that I'm like, this is like a business changer if you're not doing this. If someone is signing up for your freebie, the best time to get another yes is after they just said yes.
Laura Kendrick (22:14)
please.
Drop it. my God, I'm excited.
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (22:30)
If you're in the TJ Maxx aisle and you went in, you got what you needed and you're weaving through their aisle of randomness that is beautiful and you're all of a sudden like, I've got a mug, I've got new headphones, I've got this gift bag that I'm not even needing right now but it's so good I can't pass it up. That is what we can do on our website with a tripwire. So.
A tripwire is a low ticket offer that relates to the freebie. And so if we're already signing up for the freebie, they automatically get redirected to that tripwire page. I'm sure everyone has seen one. It's like the, wait. And it's like, know, yeah, there may be a timer. Usually it's like anywhere from in the online.
Laura Kendrick (23:10)
Yeah. Three minutes left.
Melissa (23:21)
Rome, it's usually a small ask. It's like seven to $27, maybe 47. And what it's related to the freebie, but it's like that next like, but this will help you even more. And if you don't have that set up, I feel like a lot of times we get overwhelmed thinking about setting that up.
Laura Kendrick (23:32)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa (23:46)
But when you set that up, it is such a game changer because you're not only growing your list, you're getting paid to do it.
Laura Kendrick (23:52)
And it's so fun. Honestly, I remember being at a conference earlier this year and I remember sitting there cause I was talking to somebody I knew and my phone went off and I was like, ⁓ I, and I, yeah. And it was like, I mean, it was like nothing. was like $23 and it was also from somebody I knew by the way, but it was something that made me so fricking excited. Cause it was coming from like a bundle that I had been part of a bundle and suddenly somebody had clicked the trip wire and I'm like,
Melissa (24:02)
You just sold.
Laura Kendrick (24:19)
This is the best $23 of my life!
Melissa (24:22)
Because it feels like you didn't have to work for it. You put it up, like you work for it once. And then it's like, I remember, I think I was pushing one of my kids on the swing when my first one came in and I was like, I'm pain and I'm pushing my kid on the swing at the park right now.
Laura Kendrick (24:40)
Yeah, I just remember the juxtaposition of like, I'm in this room full of amazing entrepreneur women and like, I am just in my zone and this is super fun and here I am like, the best part of my day today is that I just made like $23. Yeah, right? Or like three of them.
Melissa (24:57)
Go get yourself a Starbucks coffee. ⁓
Laura Kendrick (25:04)
⁓ so good.
my gosh, that was such a good, good tip. Yes, for sure. ⁓ And honestly, most like checkout platforms have that stuff built in now where it's like really easy to set it up. Like, yeah, you gotta do some building, but the systems are there, which is nice for sure. All right. cool. yeah. Yeah. Make it simple.
Melissa (25:21)
Yeah, and like don't overwhelm yourself with it. If you're,
you probably already have an old freebie out there that could be your turf wire. Because I know we've all built those freebies that are so overwhelmingly stuffed with things that it's not a freebie. Like you know in your heart, you should be charging for this.
Laura Kendrick (25:33)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, slap seven bucks on it, call it a day. I love that. So good, such good advice. Okay, Melissa, where can the people find you?
Melissa (25:52)
you can find me, ⁓ my gosh, I literally took Instagram off my phone. It's still there, but I'm not really, I'm not, in this current state, I'm like, you know what?
Laura Kendrick (25:59)
Woo, good for you.
Yeah, I feel you.
Melissa (26:09)
Business is thriving and I'm not on Instagram and I'm just gonna roll with it. So, ⁓ you can find me at carbonandclay.co. You can always email me. I mean, I might check Instagram once in while on my computer. ⁓ But for the most part, I'm emailing right now and I love it.
Laura Kendrick (26:30)
I it. I love it. Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining, Melissa. This was so good. It was so good.
Melissa (26:38)
It was fun. Thank you.
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